Tower Of Joy Sacrifice

[KingHimes]

Been lurking for a bit and love this forum so to all I say Hi!

Sorry if this has been discussed but I cant help but think that the fighting at TOJ was for a blood sacrifice.

It seems pretty reasonable that since Ned was Lyanna's sister the KG should have known no harm would have come to her.  So it seems they really had no reason to fight outside the TOJ since everyone knew the war was over.

I think that Sir Arthur Dayne and the others must have had an idea that some kind of bblood sacrifice was needed for the prophecy to be successful.  And the fact that it seems the birthing happens right after Dayne is killed is curious.

What do you guys think? 

[Dorian Martell]

The battle was fought because an ally of Ned and Bob had murdered the other children of the prince. 
If a sacrifice was needed, why not just get some lowborn pleb and kill them? why make it a drawn out spectacle between a lord paramount, his bannermen and the royal guard?

[Neolaina]

11 minutes ago, KingHimes said:

Been lurking for a bit and love this forum so to all I say Hi!

Sorry if this has been discussed but I cant help but think that the fighting at TOJ was for a blood sacrifice.

It seems pretty reasonable that since Ned was Lyanna's sister the KG should have known no harm would have come to her.  So it seems they really had no reason to fight outside the TOJ since everyone knew the war was over.

I think that Sir Arthur Dayne and the others must have had an idea that some kind of bblood sacrifice was needed for the prophecy to be successful.  And the fact that it seems the birthing happens right after Dayne is killed is curious.

What do you guys think? 

I think this is a hell of a stretch.

First, we have no knowledge as to whether or not Dayne, Whent and Hightower knew anything about said prophecy. Assuming they did doesn't give any ground to argue such a point on, as one would be filling in the gaps as they see fit.

Though the war might have been over, that wouldn't stop the Kingsguard from completing whatever their task at hand was. Which is, presumably, protecting their prince's son. And it's a lot simpler than trying to explain it away as having need for a blood sacrifice.

Again, because we have no clue whether or not they even knew of the prophecy.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Even if Ned wouldn't harm the babe, he surely would take custody of it and not allow it to inherit the throne.  This is like Forley Prestor and Stannis.  Prestor will not yield nor will stannis lift his demands, so the only outcome is death for the loser.

[KingHimes]

6 minutes ago, Neolaina said:

 

Though the war might have been over, that wouldn't stop the Kingsguard from completing whatever their task at hand was. Which is, presumably, protecting their prince's son. 

 

Protecting him from his honorable uncle?

[KingHimes]

7 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

The battle was fought because an ally of Ned and Bob had murdered the other children of the prince. 
If a sacrifice was needed, why not just get some lowborn pleb and kill them? why make it a drawn out spectacle between a lord paramount, his bannermen and the royal guard?

Well Mr Martell the only thing I can think is there is power in certain blood .  The SOTM seems pretty powerful so maybe his blood is as well.

[Dorian Martell]

6 minutes ago, KingHimes said:

Well Mr Martell the only thing I can think is there is power in certain blood .  The SOTM seems pretty powerful so maybe his blood is as well.

If the sword of the morning was a required sacrifice, why did the prince go to war and die instead of sacrificing the guy he hung around with constantly.  What was the point of involving Ned?  Why didn't the prince make the sacrifice? So no, a blood sacrifice wasn't needed. they kings hurad was protecting Rhaegar's heir. pure and simple 

[KingHimes]

1 minute ago, Dorian Martell said:

If the sword of the morning was a required sacrifice, why did the prince go to war and die instead of sacrificing the guy he hung around with constantly.  What was the point of involving Ned?  Why didn't the prince make the sacrifice? So no, a blood sacrifice wasn't needed. they kings hurad was protecting Rhaegar's heir. pure and simple 

Arent you supposed to take it easy on newbies?!  

Just trying to spark up some convo my lord

[Sir Matthis Light]

Tower of Joy Sacrifice?!? I rank this with R+L=D theory, which is to say not high. But you know, till we get WoW any theory is fair game.

But no I personally don't think there was a sacrifice at tToJ.

I subscribe to R+L=J

[erra]

Ned Stark and all the men with him are rebels to the throne which the Kings Guard protects. Ned's bff and now King rebel killed their prince ... I don't think it has to be anything more than a sword fight, of course followed up by the biggest secret in Westeros. 

The only blood sacrifices we've seen so far have involved fire (leeches / danny) or rituals and incantations (maegi) - which we don't know of in this scene.

 An interesting thought, but reaching pretty far imo.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, KingHimes said:

Protecting him from his honorable uncle?

His honourable uncle is honour-bound to reveal his existence to the Usurper who approves of murders of children. And even if Ned can be compelled to keep quiet, there is no way he would allow them to take Jon away and make preparations for a new civil war in his name. Plus, there are six more men with Ned, who may have their own views and agendas and are too many to be trusted to keep the secret. They cannot be allowed to live, none of them. 

[Neolaina]

9 hours ago, KingHimes said:

Protecting him from his honorable uncle?

Protecting him from one of the commanders of the rebellion whom the Kingsguard might have held responsible for their charge's then-dead sister and brother?

Like, seriously?

Is this lost upon you?

Come on.

[Bael's Bastard]

If RLJ is true and Jon was in the tower, the KG had every reason to believe the child could be in danger. Ned may have been Lyanna's brother, but he was a rebel against the Targaryens, and Jon's paternal line was Targaryen. Depending on whether there was a marriage, the KG very well may have been guarding a Targaryen child they believed to be an heir or even their new king. Even if they thought Ned wouldn't harm the child himself, they knew the rebels weren't rebelling to put a different, child Targaryen on the throne. They may have known (depending on whether they were learning information from Ned, or receiving birds) that the rebels had killed every Targ they got their hands on, including baby Aegon and little Rhaenys. The KG had every reason to be worried about the child's life, just as Ned himself was worried about Jon's life if anyone found out the truth.

[Bael's Bastard]

Honorable Ned himself essentially betrayed his king and best friend by harboring and lying about what may have actually been the last Targaryen king before the war ended. And not sure how famous Ned's honor was as a twenty year old rebel. No doubt his reputation's grown since. Either way, Ned being Lyanna's brother did not exempt them from fulfilling their vows.

[Vuron]

10 hours ago, KingHimes said:

I think that Sir Arthur Dayne and the others must have had an idea that some kind of bblood sacrifice was needed for the prophecy to be successful.  And the fact that it seems the birthing happens right after Dayne is killed is curious.

What do you guys think? 

I've been away from the boards for a while and haven't been keeping up, so I could be behind, but where is the evidence that the birthing happened right after Dayne is killed?  I know many people that assume Lyanna died during the actual act of giving birth, but I've seen just as much evidence that she died of extended blood loss which would have taken a while, which indicates she had already given birth by the time Ned and company arrived at the ToJ.

[Brightstar_]

The Kingsguard was protecting their King's heir from the allies of the men who murdered the King and his other heirs.

[finger]

1 hour ago, BrightStar Of The Day said:

The Kingsguard was protecting their King's heir from the allies of the men who murdered the King and his other heirs.

Right, but I'm afraid we disagree on who this heir was.

I don't think it was a blood sacrifice realted with magic. They just kept the pass until they be killed, in order to buy time for the heir to flee.

[Ygrain]

18 hours ago, Vuron said:

I've been away from the boards for a while and haven't been keeping up, so I could be behind, but where is the evidence that the birthing happened right after Dayne is killed?  I know many people that assume Lyanna died during the actual act of giving birth, but I've seen just as much evidence that she died of extended blood loss which would have taken a while, which indicates she had already given birth by the time Ned and company arrived at the ToJ.

The many people are wrong, then. There was certainly blood loss (the room smelled of blood) but also "fever had taken her strength", which points to infection. Most likely, she died of childbed fever, which takes several day to develop and another several days to succumb to. So, unless there was a considerable passage of time between the fight and her death, by the time of Ned's arrival, Jon had been 1-2 weeks old.

[Hangover of the Morning]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

The many people are wrong, then. There was certainly blood loss (the room smelled of blood) but also "fever had taken her strength", which points to infection. Most likely, she died of childbed fever, which takes several day to develop and another several days to succumb to. So, unless there was a considerable passage of time between the fight and her death, by the time of Ned's arrival, Jon had been 1-2 weeks old.

The bold part is a bit unfair.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, puerperal fever may have very well been the cause of Lyanna's death but I think is as likely that she died shortly after giving birth probably from too much blood loss and other complications. Maybe the stress of Ned's arrival and the fight under the tower is what caused her to go into labour prematurely.

She could have easily been feverish before, during and after the birth as well (not at all uncommon). Let's also not forget that the word "fever"doesn't have to be literal "high body temperature" but could refer to Lyanna's agitated state. She was in shock, bleeding and a bit scared of her big brother and what he might do to her child. She used the last of her strength to frantically plead with Ned before succumbing to the injuries/fever. 

[BalerionTheCat]

OP, that is exactly what I believe. Sacrifice, but not just that.

The fight was not necessary. Ned future actions demonstrate it. He had just left Robert with two dead children. He would not allow it with his sister's baby. But the KG could not live either. Not if they didn't want to flee. If they had won against Ned, others would have come after. And they would not have cared for Jon. They could have found an agreement, for example hiding with Howland Reed in The Neck. But they didn't want.

The ToJ dialog evidences the KG had nothing more important to do anywhere. And Arthur Dayne “And now it begins" enforce that. IMO they knew what they were doing, including a sacrifice.