Tower Of Joy Sacrifice

[StarkofWinterfell]

On 5/28/2016 at 11:39 PM, KingHimes said:

Been lurking for a bit and love this forum so to all I say Hi!

Sorry if this has been discussed but I cant help but think that the fighting at TOJ was for a blood sacrifice.

It seems pretty reasonable that since Ned was Lyanna's sister the KG should have known no harm would have come to her.  So it seems they really had no reason to fight outside the TOJ since everyone knew the war was over.

I think that Sir Arthur Dayne and the others must have had an idea that some kind of bblood sacrifice was needed for the prophecy to be successful.  And the fact that it seems the birthing happens right after Dayne is killed is curious.

What do you guys think? 

Am I reading this wrong or did you say Ned was Lyanna's sister?

I never knew that!

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

The bold part is a bit unfair.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, puerperal fever may have very well been the cause of Lyanna's death but I think is as likely that she died shortly after giving birth probably from too much blood loss and other complications. Maybe the stress of Ned's arrival and the fight under the tower is what caused her to go into labour prematurely.

She could have easily been feverish before, during and after the birth as well (not at all uncommon). Let's also not forget that the word "fever"doesn't have to be literal "high body temperature" but could refer to Lyanna's agitated state. She was in shock, bleeding and a bit scared of her big brother and what he might do to her child. She used the last of her strength to frantically plead with Ned before succumbing to the injuries/fever. 

She was not just feverish, she was weakened by fever to an extent that her voice was mere whisper - that means days of infection, and GRRM has shown us people dying of infection several times, it's not like he doesn't know how these things go.

I'm not saying it is entirely impossible that Lyanna's fever was not connected to childbirth, but here's the thing - if it was not connected to The Big Mystery, there is no reason why Ned wouldn't mention it.

[Hangover of the Morning]

10 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

She was not just feverish, she was weakened by fever to an extent that her voice was mere whisper - that means days of infection, and GRRM has shown us people dying of infection several times, it's not like he doesn't know how these things go.

I'm not saying it is entirely impossible that Lyanna's fever was not connected to childbirth, but here's the thing - if it was not connected to The Big Mystery, there is no reason why Ned wouldn't mention it.

The days of infection could precede the birth easily but anyways we're talking semantics. I was just surprised when you said that whoever thinks that Lyanna died due to complication from childbirth is obviously wrong, and that she clearly must have died days (or more likely) weeks after giving birth. I don't see how "The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper.." is some ironclad proof of Lyanna dying from puerperal fever, though it certainly doesn't contradict it. 

However, she could have easily been feverish and losing blood and strength and voice at the same time and it could have been minutes or hours after giving birth. 

[AryaGonnaEatThatDeadFatGuy]

To the OP, I don't think there was a sacrifice in that sense they may have sacrificed themselves but only for their honor

And the blood sacrifice I would think would be most like what you described is the birth of the dragons which was a 1:1, 3 deaths 3 lives. But it seems like what you are proposing is 8:1 (at least as far as those who died fighting) so to me it wouldn't fit

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

Robert murdered Rhaegar.

Rhaegar's children, Aegon and Visenya were murdered, his wife was rapped and murdered.

What would happen if Robert knew Rhaegar had rapped and impregnated Lyanna and she gave birth to another of Rhaegar's children?

Even after 20 years of Roberts Rebellion at the start of CoK we see that Robert wants Daenerys and Viserys dead, and asks Varys to send the assassins just because they are Targaryen.

The KG where protecting Rhaegar's son/daugther and lover.

[Lady_of_the_black]

I think they had to fight because the vow they swore to rhaegar was to keep lyannas pregnancy secret and to keep her away from everybody, even her brother. They knew the consequences if the new king was to find out that rhaegar fathered his betrothed's child. Ned wouldn't have made it to her if the kingsguard hadn't been defeated first. They swore a vow to keep the secret.

[tugela]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 7:33 AM, Vuron said:

I've been away from the boards for a while and haven't been keeping up, so I could be behind, but where is the evidence that the birthing happened right after Dayne is killed?  I know many people that assume Lyanna died during the actual act of giving birth, but I've seen just as much evidence that she died of extended blood loss which would have taken a while, which indicates she had already given birth by the time Ned and company arrived at the ToJ.

If you think about it, Lyanna may not actually be dead. Robb and Jon are the same age. Robb was conceived just prior to Ned riding off to war. that means that Jon must have been conceived at around the same time. Later on Arya is informed by one of the younger Daynes that he is Jon's "milk brother", and that his wet nurse was Jon's mother. This is Wylla, who was a servant in the Dayne household. Ned himself tells Robert that Wylla was Jon's mother. Here is the problem. Jon was off fighting, and only went to Starfall after the war ended. There would not be enough time for him to impregnate Wylla and bring the baby home with him, not unless he hung out at Starfall for a year. But Jon has all the hallmarks of being a Stark, so Ned cannot be his father.

So, if Wylla is Jon's mother, and is still alive to breast feed the younger Dayne years later, then she is really Lyanna, still alive and being sheltered in secret at Starfall.

All of this is very strange, since Ned killed Arthur, and (supposedly) was responsible for Ashara throwing herself off the castle tower, you would think that the Daynes would be less than friendly towards Ned. Yet they apparently are. I think that the Daynes are in some sort of conspiracy. IMO both Ashara and Lyanna are still alive, and ultimately will be the ones to reveal the true identity of their children. And Ned has been sworn to protect the secret, which is why Lyanna is imploring him to swear in the TOJ recollections. Ned believed her to be dying, but had no recollection of what happened to her afterwards. There is an odd parallel between that and what happened to Ashara. She "dies", but no one knows what happened to her after that.

Incidentally, I think Lyannas grave in the Winterfell crypts is empty, or at least contains something other than her remains. Curiously hers is the only grave with a carved likeness who is not a king or lord. Why would she have been afforded this special honor that previously had been reserved for the Stark lords only?