Mysterious Fisher Queens

[Lord of Da Turah]

We know next to nothing of the Fisher Queens but we know they were important. Their Dynasty is said to be equally legendary as the GEOTD. Why has GRRM given us anymore information about them? Will he? What do you guys think?

[Waters Gate]

If i'm not mistaken the fisher queens live on those floating city's that sit in some lakes of the Dothraki sea. or atleast they did, a lot of the water has vanished from the Dothraki sea and perhaps they with it.

A lot of places talked about in the world book will probably never be relevant to the asoiaf story. That said, Dany is out there in the Dothraki sea, so perhaps she actually stumbles on on of those floating city's.

[Orphalesion]

The Fisher Queens are one of those very nice examples of people/lands where history might be mixed with legend that litter WOIAF. Everything about them, their just rule, their prosperity, their marvelous, floating palaces bears elements of the myths of a past Golden Age and "paradisaical" faroff lands, like the Realm of Prester John that littered Medieval texts and maps.

So they might have just been a primitive society that lived as nomads on the waves of that lost inland sea and over time their legend grew. Or, Planetos being a magical world after all, they might really have existed, just like the legends tell.

I doubt we'll really get an answer, just like we will never see Asshai By-the-Shadow or find out what's going on in those two additional continents.

[Waters Gate]

There is a 16th century floating palace in india, well atleast it appears to be floating. The jal Mahal palace. build on a shallow with some added foundation to make it higher iirc.

That is nothing that is outside the means nessecarily of people back then. Venice by the same view is practicly a floating city, and was build during medieval times. The acces of waterways might actually make the supply of construction materials fairly easy, and it's going to be a ratehr safe place to be in that area too so it has the same point to it as venice roughly.

Though, wasn't there mention that these floating palace's could actually move about? That would be another matter entirrely, well unless one has come to understand the mechanics of hydrostatic pressure and the usage of steel in that regard, after which it can be rather easy providing acces to shitloads of steel. Besides making that thing float then however with a durable hull it would also would need rather strong proppulsion to be able to move about all that mass.

Then there is the idea that what constitute's a "palace" can truly be in the eye of the beholder. There was a passage in the books, i think it was with ygritte or Gilly, where one of them said of some meager westerosi holdfast that it looked like a palace, upon which the reply was made that it was nothing compared to some of the other stuff around. The wildlings in that respect are used to practicly nothing in terms of architecture, and the same goes for the Dothraki.

 

So perhaps when talking about a floating palace it was actually meant to be a rather big or beautifull medieval ship. A well adorned cog perhaps.

Mind you, there were ships in medieval times that looked like practicle palace's. In the early 13th century China build a large fleet of richly adorned oversized ships that used to roam the indian ocean for a few decade's as to extend China's influence. T give you a size comparison of just how bloody enourmous these ships were, look at the picture below:

http://www.alrahalah.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/ChinaZhengHeShip1405vsSantaMaria500pxw.jpg

That is a size comparison between Zheng he's ship and that of Collumbus, and note that Zheng he's ship predates columbus by about 300 years. You'd be suitably impressed had you lived in that time and seen a fleet of thousands of ships with a bunch of of them getting up to this size. The Chinese were far ahead of Europe back then, they could have colonized the America's with this had they went that direction, in terms of ocean going quality these ships were possibly better than those of the early european colonizers.

[Orphalesion]

3 minutes ago, Waters Gate said:

(snip)

Yep, that's all exactly my point. Since it was so long ago perception and legend all might contribute to the little information we get in WOIAF. 

The account says their palace did move around, I like you suggestion that it perhaps was a large, advanced ship that seemed like a floating palace to the primitive people along the shores.

Then again, perhaps they lived in solid, wooden stilt houses that seemed like "palaces" to people who were nomadic or still lived in tents and huts.

And over time:

Generation 1: They lived in houses greater than ours that were built in the water, like they were floating on the waves.

Generation 5: They lived in dwellings greater than the fortresses of our lords, floating on the waves.

Generation 10: They lived in a marvelous palace that floated on the waves of the inland sea, moving from place to place.

Almost anything is possible here... imho that's what it makes so fascinating ^-^

[Waters Gate]

30 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Yep, that's all exactly my point. Since it was so long ago perception and legend all might contribute to the little information we get in WOIAF. 

The account says their palace did move around, I like you suggestion that it perhaps was a large, advanced ship that seemed like a floating palace to the primitive people along the shores.

Then again, perhaps they lived in solid, wooden stilt houses that seemed like "palaces" to people who were nomadic or still lived in tents and huts.

And over time:

Generation 1: They lived in houses greater than ours that were built in the water, like they were floating on the waves.

Generation 5: They lived in dwellings greater than the fortresses of our lords, floating on the waves.

Generation 10: They lived in a marvelous palace that floated on the waves of the inland sea, moving from place to place.

Almost anything is possible here... imho that's what it makes so fascinating ^-^

 

And then decline? Didn't the lakes start to dry up?

I would need to recheck the world book for the story. Afaik there was a river at the time that connected it to the north that dried up. A number of thoughts:

If youre a maritime culture and youre lakes are shrinking, it's not nessecarily that big an issue to move away.

If youre a maritime culture youre likely to be engaged in a lot of naval trade, and by that token you will be known far aroudn the world. No fisher king ships apparently arriving at Braavos or White harbor though. No more? Never?

 

What really is going to float youre boat (pun intended) in being a rich maritime culture is having a connection around that area from north to south. Oh holy fantastic trade route, lets trade stuff like furs and stuff of whales or iwalrusivory for spices and silk and stuff like that. Do that for a while and it won't be to hard to upgrade youre boat. The rich merchants sailing the indy routes during the golden ages often had these richly adorned backsides to their ships. Thats a lot of gold to insolently sail with impunity past the Dothraki. I see some sad Dothraki looking from the sides, perhaps seeing youre occasional guy on that ship throwing out some nets apparently to fish.There are plenty trade city's atleast in the south, had there been a water connection trough the area there they would have exploited it until it might have dried up.

The problem with a seperate maritime culture that stays mysterious and often unseen is that it is the opposite of they typical nature of maritime culture's. Maritime cultures have their eyes over the water in to practical endlessness, they can use the seas to go practically anywhere and will find plenty of opportunity's trough those ways. Even if the Fisher kings wanted to stay hidden, typical societal development will produce more people and a want for expansion and you will find the limits of it somewhere, that or you need to cull or limit youre poppulation or be able to multiply fish faster than Jesus.

So my guess is that at the time there was far more water in the region that there were also accesways that were very interresting for trade and which were exploited by maritime culture's such we know a number of. Perhaps the water didn't went all the way across the continent, but went far enough to allow the rest be connected by land based trade in safe enviroments for it, like perhaps Qarth used to function as such a waystation and perhaps had a colony more north of the current city that lied at the end of a waterway which allowed travel up to there by water and safe transport over land to Qarth. there would have been middle men with each extra trade station but the connnection more than profitable enough due to variaty of goods.

Perhaps Dany will find the ships of the "fisher kings", in the middle of the red waste near Qarth. Stranded there by the drying up of the internal waterway, lying near some forgotten trade port of Qarth. I'm not sure but the dryness of the dessert might help to conserve, and you would find that stuff harder because who in heavens name wants to go search trough the red waste? If ever you find youre sorry ass in that place apparently it's best to gtfo asap. You'd find that stuff easier when flying over it with a dragon though, but the same goes for finding some huts on a lake in the middle of nowhere so who knows.

 

[Orphalesion]

4 minutes ago, Waters Gate said:

 

snip

 

Ah no, the Generations I mentioned were the people after the Fisher Queens and their inland sea disappeared and showed how the legend might have grown over time. Not really speaking about a possible development of the Queens themselves.

The Dothraki did not yet exist during the time of the Fisher Queens, and neither did Quarth or Braavos or White Harbour. The Fisher Queens were in the very distant Ancient past, before any written word, before the Arrival of the First Men in Westeros etc etc. 

Which is why it's perfectly possible that the "palaces" were just sturdy wood houses on stilts as viewed through the lens of people who still lived in tents, huts , or even caves.

And well, not every body of water is the same, if the Fisher Queens lived on boats they did so in an Inland Sea/Large Lake and sailing waters like that is completely different than braving an actual ocean. Compare the Greeks, Phoenicians and Romans who ruled the waters of the Mediterranean Sea, but were actually afraid of the Atlantic. A hypothetical house or palace boat built for sailing a relatively calm inland sea might very easily be ripped apart by the merciless waves of an actual ocean.

It's perfectly possible thought they were traders though, taking advantage of their mobility when many peoples knew little but their immediate surroundings, which would have only added to their prestige and legendary status among those that remembered them. Maybe they were already seen as legendary during their existence even.

Imho what destroyed them was a combination of the shrinking of the sea and the associated climate change, making the surrounding lands drier and less arable, was that not also a factor in the development of the Dothraki? It also would have destroyed their mobility and ability to trade.

We might know what became of the Fisher Queens, the Srnori claim to be descended from them, seem s like as their sea shrank they took to a life on land...

It would be cool if Daenerys found some remnant of them, i'd love to know more about that culture.

[Waters Gate]

Ok i forgot that they were quite so ancient. Youre remarks then seem quite right, and making the difference between ships that traverse rivers and ocean going ships is also a good one. Indeed one reason why the mediteranian was a good sea to trade along in ancient times was that it was relativly more safe to traverse inland seas than going along ocean coast.

That the Srnori claim descendance from them might mean nothing, especially since it's a legendary culture. Rome claimed to be the  descendants from Troje and the English the descendants of Rome. Sure the Romans had some holdings in Brittain and some Romans living there, but it's not like you'd think that the Roman culture eventually passed into the Brittish one per se. There are some analogy's to such claims of descendancy in the books too iirc.

If there is something left and if there is somethign that could find it then likely it's Dany and her Dragons. perhaps, but it would need to serve some function. What could Dany learn from the Fisher queens?

 

[hiemal]

I figured they were mentioned primarily to highlight the historical change from egalitarian matriarchy to feudal patriarchy.

Although the name does ring Arthurian bells, obviously...

[Orphalesion]

1 hour ago, Waters Gate said:

That the Srnori claim descendance from them might mean nothing, especially since it's a legendary culture. Rome claimed to be the  descendants from Troje and the English the descendants of Rome. Sure the Romans had some holdings in Brittain and some Romans living there, but it's not like you'd think that the Roman culture eventually passed into the Brittish one per se. There are some analogy's to such claims of descendancy in the books too iirc.

If there is something left and if there is somethign that could find it then likely it's Dany and her Dragons. perhaps, but it would need to serve some function. What could Dany learn from the Fisher queens?

 

True that!

I don't know what she could learn. She might use them as an example to justify her own rule (though she could also use Nymeria for that) or she could learn about the transient nature of even the most prosperous of societies with he wisest and most capable of rulers.

28 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I figured they were mentioned primarily to highlight the historical change from egalitarian matriarchy to feudal patriarchy.

Although the name does ring Arthurian bells, obviously...

But we don't really know if they were egalitarian. for all we know they might have ruled over the more primitive people surrounding their waters like goddesses. Angry goddesses. 

They are just talked about in a positive light, but so are many things that are dead and gone, like the Valyrian Freehold by many or old Ghis by the modern Ghiscari.

[hiemal]

6 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

But we don't really know if they were egalitarian. for all we know they might have ruled over the more primitive people surrounding their waters like goddesses. Angry goddesses. 

They are just talked about in a positive light, but so are many things that are dead and gone, like the Valyrian Freehold by many or old Ghis by the modern Ghiscari.

Good point. Has there been any mention of continuity between the cultures of Fisher Queens and the Rhoynar? It could be that I was assuming the passionately egalitarian Rhoynar had taken that trait from them based on the acquatic link (a lake and a river). Hmmm, or it could just be golden-age syndrome.

The idea of angry goddess lording it over their subjects from floating palaces does have a certain appeal, though.

[Orphalesion]

34 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Good point. Has there been any mention of continuity between the cultures of Fisher Queens and the Rhoynar? It could be that I was assuming the passionately egalitarian Rhoynar had taken that trait from them based on the acquatic link (a lake and a river). Hmmm, or it could just be golden-age syndrome.

The idea of angry goddess lording it over their subjects from floating palaces does have a certain appeal, though.

To be fair I was playing Devil's Advocate here, though I do believe that the memory of the Fisher Queens has been merged with the memory of a time when the region between the Free Cities and Quarth was a more fertile, nicer place to live (let alone free of hordes of Dothraki and Valyrians on Dragons)

The only people that are mentioned to claim continuity from the Fisher Queens are the Sarnori/Tall Men through their legendary first king, Huzhor Amai (note the similarity to Azor Ahai) who was said to be the son of the last Fisher Queen. Interestingly two of his three wives (each from a different tribe) are also given martial attributes; one is mentioned as driving his chariot and another is said to have made (not commissioned, made) his armour, since her people were the first to work iron, so it seems that once upon a time the idea of warrior women was not that unusual even in Western Essos.

The Rhoynar might have simply been a people that preserved that equality between the sexes, when other nations turned patriarchal. Though I agree with you that the relationship with water and the high status of women seem to be parallels between the Rhoynar and the Fisher Queens and might hint at a (possibly forgotten) cultural ancestry.

And well there are still female warriors in the Bones and further East... and the Jogos Nhai (those people with the zorses) while relegating women to be priestesses and healers and men to be warriors, are even said to allow their members to basically choose their gender. Its said that a boy may choose to live his adult live as a woman and a girl can choose to live her adult live as a man and either will be treated as their chosen gender by the rest of the tribe. To be honest I'd see the Dothraki in a more sympathetic light if they'd share that aspect with their Eastern cousins.

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

To be fair I was playing Devil's Advocate here, though I do believe that the memory of the Fisher Queens has been merged with the memory of a time when the region between the Free Cities and Quarth was a more fertile, nicer place to live (let alone free of hordes of Dothraki and Valyrians on Dragons)

The only people that are mentioned to claim continuity from the Fisher Queens are the Sarnori/Tall Men through their legendary first king, Huzhor Amai (note the similarity to Azor Ahai) who was said to be the son of the last Fisher Queen. Interestingly two of his three wives (each from a different tribe) are also given martial attributes; one is mentioned as driving his chariot and another is said to have made (not commissioned, made) his armour, since her people were the first to work iron, so it seems that once upon a time the idea of warrior women was not that unusual even in Western Essos.

The Rhoynar might have simply been a people that preserved that equality between the sexes, when other nations turned patriarchal. Though I agree with you that the relationship with water and the high status of women seem to be parallels between the Rhoynar and the Fisher Queens and might hint at a (possibly forgotten) cultural ancestry.

And well there are still female warriors in the Bones and further East... and the Jogos Nhai (those people with the zorses) while relegating women to be priestesses and healers and men to be warriors, are even said to allow their members to basically choose their gender. Its said that a boy may choose to live his adult live as a woman and a girl can choose to live her adult live as a man and either will be treated as their chosen gender by the rest of the tribe. To be honest I'd see the Dothraki in a more sympathetic light if they'd share that aspect with their Eastern cousins.

Aha! And then we have the iron-working Rhyonar, who also taught their art to the Andals.

I wonder, given the pride of place given to the temple of the Moonsingers in Braavos if there could some carryover of that tradition there? Androgynous Arya's settling in there raises the question...

[Falcon2908]

The moving and floating palaces of the fisher queens, reminds me of the castles of the Crannogmen. GreyWater watch is said to be a floating and moving castle

[Lady Barbrey]

The World Book actually says that the First Men are thought to have come to Westeros from the area of the Fisher Queens.  I think Greywater Watch is a direct descendent in architecture, as is Hightower, Starfall, the Isle of Faces, the Quiet Isle, Riverrun, Moat Cailin and Winterfell.  They are all castles on isles surrounded on at least three sides by fresh water, in lakes, marshes, rivers, river mouths, or in the case of Winterfell, hotsprings beneath and water in the walls as replica.  I don't think it a coincidence these seem like the most magical places in Westeros or the oldest.    

[Lordsteve666]

Well in fairness it's just common sense to build your castle in the best place possible, that's what's happened in real life for hundreds of years.

Castles and walled towns tended to be on the place most easily defended and also that which gives best access to trade and essentials like water, but also allowing for spread of influence over and area. Either up on a hill, or on a river bend so it's got one side protected by cliffs/water.
So somewhere like Riverrun is built in the most logical location really, it control all three rivers in that area and is night on impregnable to invading forces.
Greywater watch i suspect is more what we're looking for here, it's not a static structure and can move around allegedly. I see it as a clear example of a real world cranog, but with some fantasy embellishments. The marshes must seem an alien and dangerous world to those not familiar with them, so they dream up all sorts of ideas about devils living there, and frog-people etc.

The fisher-people i suspect are probably an example of an ancient "civilization" who lived on reed rafts on the lakes for defense from predators, or other tribes. We're talking something like the Uru people on Lake Titicaca, but somewhere in the distant past. They sound like some spectacular Arthurian fantasy element but they are actually likely closer to a real world counterpart than a lot of things in ASOIAF.

[house of dayne]

If im not mistaken, nero had a giant floating palace built for his pleasure...a huge ship on a man made lake complete with all the luxuries of an imperial villa..fountains, baths running water etc...

[Guest jasonothegreat]

Well they were a thing of the past, same reason we never hear much about the Teagues or the Five forts. The ywere an ancient kingdom and knowing GRRM work it will probably end up, if he ever exlplains them, some tales that were extremely mythologized from the Original Fisher Queens who were just the earliest of true nation. I find it more interesting that in CK2AGOT when you check the former Kings of the Riverlands the first ones Dynasty is "House Fisher" even though I haven't read about them anywhere, so maybe there can be some connection there 

[Jon Fossoway]

It's fun how a lot of old legends in Planetos can be interpreted as an advanced civilization that got lost over time: the God-on-Earth, Fisher Queens, the extremely tall and weird Lengii. I guess the post apocalyptic influences on George shows up there.

[Poupsi]

On 5/28/2016 at 1:32 PM, Lord of Da Turah said:

We know next to nothing of the Fisher Queens but we know they were important. Their Dynasty is said to be equally legendary as the GEOTD. Why has GRRM given us anymore information about them? Will he? What do you guys think?

 

I'd been thinking about it, and I believe it is a kind of a Dornish/Rhoynish parallel. 

The Fisher Queens are associated with water, benevolence, knowledge, wisdom and feminine images. Somethings that could allude to the Rhoynars.

Their civilisation is said to have disappeared. Although, Huzhor Amai is said to be a child of the last Fisher Queen, and that one is the founder of the Great Kingdom of Sarnor. Though, it is doubtful he was one single man, but rather the Patriarch of a powerful family.

So, it is clear there is a parallel with the Rhoynars. The Rhoynish civilisation is destroyed but survive somehow with Nymeria who conquered Dorne. Although Dorne is not a empire. So, lets jump to our characters.

In asoiaf, the heir of Nymeria is Doran Martell. He is often associated with benevolence and wisdom. He is also described with Lord Rodrick Harlaw, as the most learned men in Westeros, apart from the Archmaesters of the Citadel. And he sits at the Water Gardens.

Actually, looking at the Dornish arch story, it is astonishing to realize Doran's main desire is to stay at the WG. It is even implied that the Prince Regent of Dorne sits at the WG, at least since it has been built up. Doran's mother was there. Daenerys and Moren Martell sat there too. So, it is clearly the most important place in Dorne.

I have theorised not so long ago, that the pink marble is magic water marble, filled with the memories of "Mother Rhoyne" (memories of men and animals, Princes, Scholars, warriors, merchants,...). Basically a database, or a living intelligent incubator in which the children are drown in memories and stories to be conditioned.  

Let put aside the waterwalls and Fantasia's wizards for the moment. The Rhoynish Princes were said to have uncanny powers. That sort of comment would certainly be made by their foes. In asoiaf, the political situation of Westeros is growing more and more unstable. So, the desire from Doran to go back to the Water Gardens and stay there, indicates that he could teke with his Rhoynish minions afar, and then coordinate his moves from there. So, the theory made me believe the source of those uncanny powers, to be the magic marble.

From the povs (Dany and Tyrion), we got glimpses of the ruins of Ar Noy, Ny Sar and Chroyane, and we could see that the Rhoynars were craving for marble. Tyrion even glimpse some pink marble in Ny Sar. As it happens, Nymeria was the Princess of Ny Sar, so it wouldn't be surprising if the Martells would have taken their marble from there.

If we look at the story without reading between the lines, the so-called motive of Doran to stay at the WG, is to hide his illness. So Martin uses that pretext to mislead us by thinking that the WG is just a refuge for Doran. It is rather funny that he played with the ambiguity of Doran's mother identity. Indeed, Doran sometimes talk about his mother, who is just named "Mother", and always associated with the WG. So, Martin had already set that ambiguity about whether Doran talks about his own mother, the Princess of Dorne, or Mother Rhoyne. 

 

"Your father played that same game once, as I did before him," said the prince. "We had ten years between us, so I had left the pools by the time he was old enough to play, but I would watch him when I came to visit Mother. (the Captain of Guards)

 

'There is your realm,' she told her son and heir, 'remember them, in everything you do.' My own mother said those same words to me when I was old enough to leave the pools. It is an easy thing for a prince to call the spears, but in the end the children pay the price. For their sake, the wise prince will wage no war without good cause, nor any war he cannot hope to win. (The Watcher)

 

That's funny, because it seemed princess Nymeria of Ny Sar, got somehow that same piece of advice. From her mother? or Mother ?

Some people had theorised that Doran mirrors GRRM, which I agree with because my theory implies that Doran is technically creating his own minions, just as our author is building his characters.

Furthermore, to finish on the WG, Martin had even played with the playroles and the Myth of Mother Rhoyne worshipped by the Orphans of the Greenblood.  Doran plays the role of Mother Rhoyne by guiding youth with stories. He is more often than not surrounded by Maester Caleotte and Areo Hotah. Caleotte is old, he is slow, and he is an expert healer who had served loyaly Doran's mother. So, he plays the role of the giant turtle called the Old Man. Areo Hotah is a skilled warrior married to his long axe, and he is Doran's Captain of Guards. The most famous longaxe in the story is the Valyrian Steel longaxe of house Celtigar. What is the sigil of House Celtigar? Well, it's a crab (so there is a parallel between the longaxe and crab's claws). So, Areo Hotah plays the Crab King.

(All we miss now is some Dornish shadowbinders, or super warg albinos, but I still keep faith in the Blackmonts of Blackmont and the Wyls of Wyl.)

So, the pink marble is water magic stone that was the pillar of the greatness of the Rhoynish State Cities. So, if we are looking for some remnants of the Fisher Queens, we should probably look for some water magic marble. As it happens, we glimpsed such things.

 

Daenerys had encountered magic marble at least 3 times in the story so far:

- the first time in Vaes Dothrak among the idols stolen by the Dothraki: lithe maidens of pink marble pouring air. Well, those statues were originally fountains. I believe those are our Fisher Queens.

- second time, the plaza of Vaes Tolloro. Pink marble plaza were a statue had been taken (one lithe maiden ?). Ok, Vaes Tolloro would likely be a remnant of a Quaathi city, but since Huzhor Amai had made peace everywhere, it wouldn't be surprising to have a trading peaceful colony at this place.

- Xaro bathing pool in Quarth. Since she had crossed the red waste, the first bath she had taken was in Quarth, in a marble bathing pool with fishes. The color of the marble is unstated, but it is during her bath that Dany would turn from a mourning widow to a dragon conqueror.

 

Tinfoil now.

Quentyn is alive, I don't know what he is gonna do (take yunkaii, ride a dragon, fight Khal Pono, ...). Anyways, at some point he goes to Vaes Dothrak, and he would think: "hum my father would like those fountains in his palace". By the end of the story he comes back to Dorne and they install the fountains at the WG, and Doran upgrades from a Rhoynish Prince to a Fisher Queen.