The World is not flat - Quaithe Prophecy & Consequences for the WoIaF

[Protector of Stokeworth]

I've been thinking a lot about the events in Slaver's Bay in the last book, also about the ironborn and Quaith's prophecy to Dany.

It seems like the question about GRRM's world being round instead of flat is being somewhat avoided - mainly because of the lack of information we have on that. I believe, however, that the assumption of the world as a globe would really serve the story well. Here is my theory:

Quaithe says: "To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east. To go forward you must go back and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow"

We know (HBO) that Dany will go back to Vaes Dothrak -> going back (to the past). To reach the west she is to go east. Now, she is also supposed to pass beneath the shadow - the shadow prominently being interpreted as Asshai. I know that GRRM has mentioned we will not get to see Asshai, but then Again, he has said many things. So: Going to Asshai would bring her as far east as she has to go - only to reach the west if we assume the world to be round. The far east would be close to the south of Westeros. That would fulfill those lines of the prophecy. I realize they are not always meant to be taken literally, but what do you think?

 

P.S.: Also, Asshai is south of Qarth, Mereen, etc. and would be another way to eventually go north. 

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/iceandfire/images/3/37/Ice_and_Fire_World_Map.png/revision/latest?cb=20130127004523

[Waters Gate]

You cannot believe the asoiaf map. it is wrong. there is a simple reason why it is wrong, it's a flat map of a supposedly round world. A flat map of a round world translate's to a distorted picture where the north is going to be stretched and the south be copressed. Though it depends on how the map is made and interpreted.

To give you an important hint here for what regards rounding the world, it's easier done along the north than along the south. The world is 40.000 kiliometers wide along the equator, but only a fraction of that nearer to the pole's. Interrestingly the sea north of Essos is navigatable. To put it like this, a person sailign away from Westeros say from kings landing to sail along the north and return to westeros at Lannisport would take a far shorter rought than taking the route south of Essos along Asshai which seems closer to the equator. in fact, most of the north might already be mapped. We see a long stretch of coast along the north of Essos and we could consider that the distance they sailed along that way was about the same as the distance they sailed along the south of Essos. Only, if such is true then they would have explored a far greater part of the width along the north than the width along the south. The errors then you might find on the map for ex. is that instead that ibben is due north of Qarth, perhaps it's actually southeast of Asshai really. It is also interresting to note that the End of Essos at the Northeast is about the same lattitude of lonely light, and that the lord of lonely light claims he has seen land due west of him. in our world people could never navigate the shorter northern route around the world but here perhaps they could. it might be just that we already know most land along that norther lattitude, the pole circel for example is about 18000 km wide as opposed to the equators 42000 km. The width you see on the map is likely already more than 10.000 kilometers

And besides that, everything depends on how far Dany is from Westeros in any given direction. It might just be that if she's north enough that the shortest route towards Westeros would be by passing the north pole, It is possibly the shortest route between say Quebec and St. Petersburg on our world (not sure).

 

That said, contours of the map don't nessecarily mean anything either, could be very incorrect. Navigators will orient landmasas depending on where they observe the sun to be from that point, in principle even that gets somewhat distorted, i bet they would get confused passign the equator too withought any other reference because in the southern hemisphere the sun passes along the north at day. All that though depends if the movement of the sun along the planets surface is comparable to ours, which we don't know. it could be so completly different that it woudl totally change the map too. Our sun moves around the surface of our plannet roughly along the equator. With the planet Westeros is on we are not even sure if the sun even passes along all parts of the world. Perhaps certain parts are permanently in the dark, like the shadowlands for ex. Interresting to note in that regard imho is that the Shadowlands are due north of Asshai, or more importantly in the opposite direction of the sun. If you were on a planet that would have a region that is permanently dark, then standing between that region and the sunny region you'd obviously have the sun to 1 direction and the other to the opposite direction.

And as for the shadow then: Where do you think it ends? We know it's about due north of Asshai, but we have no idea how far it stretches. Given all the map shennanigans going on, you might really be surprised/disooriented about where Dany is going to pass that shadow.

 

 

[Neolaina]

Are we really suggesting that there's people who're Flat Planetosers?

I would have thought the world as a globe would have been a universal assumption.

Now, as to your interpretation of Quaithe's words, we already know from George that we won't be seeing Asshai, so I can't see Dany heading east unless it's between chapters. Which could happen. I can't see why it couldn't. But, I'd feel like that'd be an awful waste of Asshai. So, it's possible.

That said, I don't think calling the map "wrong" is the correct way of looking at it, either. I feel it might be more apt to consider it imperfect. A rough estimation, if one is willing.

The use of shadow could be metaphorical for more than just geography. Consider Dany's actions/beliefs/etc, with regards to the Targaryen way of doing things (Good ole' Fire and Blood). Hers are a shadow of who she's actually meant to be; she commits to actions that in some respects are the complete opposite of what her forebearers might have done. If we take Dany's rebirth at the end of DwD (I consider it a rebirth, anyways. You know, the chapter where she's walking post-Drogon's aerie, and she's basically withering away) to be finding the light (deciding to change how she's approaching everything, living by the words Fire and Blood), one could easily argue that Quaithe's words are more about Dany's experiential journey versus her geographic one.

But that's just me.

 

[Waters Gate]

3 hours ago, Neolaina said:

Are we really suggesting that there's people who're Flat Planetosers?

I would have thought the world as a globe would have been a universal assumption.

Yeah even Grrm confirmed that the world is round.

But the Asoiaf map is very much flat, and that creates a distortian. An very important one to keep in mind when considering the option of rounding Planetos.

 

To reiterate my point:

This is a flat world map:

http://www.mapsofworld.com/images-mow/world-map.jpg

You can look at this map, and think to yourself wel Greenland is bigger than South America.

Here is a more round projection:

http://worldatlas.com/worldmaps/worldpoliticallarge.jpg

Now greenland looks quite a lot smaller than South America.

The distrotion is afcourse due to projection. The last projection here is more true. By default, a flat map is a significantly distorted one if it represents a round planet, the distortion is typicly going to be more along the pole's and the equator. You will shrink stuff along the equator and enlargen stuff along the poles on a flat map because the world is a lot wider along the equator than along the pole circle.

Afcourse, these are projections we use in modern times of a world we have fully explored. We have all the reference points to make whatever distortion trough projection still fit in relative terms. The Westerosi have not, the map is probably quite distorted, but mostly for Essos because the westerosi know relative distances in Westeros better.. Afterall this is an inperfect medieval map, if it's made by Westerosi it's going to be quite inperfect, comparable to our medieval "world maps" like this one:

http://www.medievalists.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/TabulaRogeriana.jpg

Which has the south to the top and the north to the bottom, as customary in the time.

 

Now the interresting thing for potentially roudning the world is that the world is a lot less wide along the pole circles, and there seems to be passage there. If this had been our world, perhaps Maggelan could have rounded the world in 1/3rd of the actual distance he traveled to round ours, atleast if he's a Westerosi and he wants to sai from White hardbor to Bear island trough a northern passage. The world around that area might only be 16.000 km wide as opposed to 42.000 kilometers along the equator.

Meaning that in principle Dany should have a lot shorter route to Westeros should she go north now rather than to go south. if she goes south she's likely going to wind up at a port near the equator, while if she finds a port along the pole circel by going north then she might have only half to 1/3rd of the distance to go to get to Westeros. Even going northwest now would be a shorter route to Westeros than going southwest. But perhaps an even shorter route exists by going northeast and keep goign that way to wind up around bear island. If the relative distance's along the northern coast of Essos are right in comparison to the wall, then the Westerosi migth already know a lot of the area around the pole circle. Using the walls 300 miles as a reference for the distances on the map then it would seem that the the map stretches about 13.000 km wide. This means covers less than 1/3rd of the distance along the equator, but covers more than 3/4ths of the distance along the artic circle. But the map is no good reference though because the distorted projection. So it's hard to say where the shortest route exactly is, but i think i can say to connect the left side of the map with the ride side of the map then it micht only need an additional 3000 kilometers along the artic circle. Though Essos is a lot more south of the artic circle ... If the Westerosi are right, becaus elikely there is going to map distortion not only in width but also in height or the longitude a place is along.

 

So a lot is open to interpretation with the Asoiaf map, and who knows it might indeed shorter for Dany to go by the North-Northeast to Westeros. it depends somewhat how high North Vaes Dothrak is. North might even be better. Depends where the geographical north pole is, then you just take a short route along that pole to wind down somewhere near Hardhome in no time. Now you might say, well it's going to be hard to sail trough all that ice, but hey gotta use those dragons for something.

 

 

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

22 hours ago, Protector of Stokeworth said:

Quaithe says: "To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east. To go forward you must go back and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow"

We know (HBO) that Dany will go back to Vaes Dothrak -> going back (to the past). To reach the west she is to go east. Now, she is also supposed to pass beneath the shadow - the shadow prominently being interpreted as Asshai. I know that GRRM has mentioned we will not get to see Asshai, but then Again, he has said many things. So: Going to Asshai would bring her as far east as she has to go - only to reach the west if we assume the world to be round. The far east would be close to the south of Westeros. That would fulfill those lines of the prophecy. I realize they are not always meant to be taken literally, but what do you think?

I just had a thought... What if "pass beneath the shadow" doesn't refer to the shadow by Asshai, but the Shadow Tower at the west end of the wall?  It's where Mance Rayder and Qorin Halfhand were based but I can't find anything on how it got its name or how old it is.  We already know of a secret gate beneath the nightfort, there could be one there too.  

I'm pretty sure that 'to reach the west, you must go east' refers to Dany going back to Vaes Dothrak to get her army.  This makes most sense to me anyway.

Not sure about 'to go North you must journey South'.  It may mean that she has to approach Westeros from the south.

[House Cambodia]

A quick google will throw up a few fan-made globes of Planetos. Most estimate a huge, Pacific-sized ocean between the east coast of Essos and west coast of Westeros which would likely deter Dothraki 'sailors' and might be too far for a dragon to fly.

Planetos globe

[House Cambodia]

2 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

I just had a thought... What if "pass beneath the shadow" doesn't refer to the shadow by Asshai, but the Shadow Tower at the west end of the wall?  It's where Mance Rayder and Qorin Halfhand were based but I can't find anything on how it got its name or how old it is.  We already know of a secret gate beneath the nightfort, there could be one there too.  

I'm pretty sure that 'to reach the west, you must go east' refers to Dany going back to Vaes Dothrak to get her army.  This makes most sense to me anyway.

Not sure about 'to go North you must journey South'.  It may mean that she has to approach Westeros from the south.

This is cool. I've already posited that Dany will hit Westeros at Oldtown, and with her dothraki and Iron Born rabble will plunder, pillage and rape their way north - coming to the Shadow Tower is a great catch.

[daccu65]

2 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

I just had a thought... What if "pass beneath the shadow" doesn't refer to the shadow by Asshai, but the Shadow Tower at the west end of the wall?  It's where Mance Rayder and Qorin Halfhand were based but I can't find anything on how it got its name or how old it is.  We already know of a secret gate beneath the nightfort, there could be one there too.  

I had occasionally thought about the Shadow Tower, but I hadn't recalled that Mance and Qorin were based from it...that's a good and potentially important catch. 

 

20 hours ago, Waters Gate said:

Now the interresting thing for potentially roudning the world is that the world is a lot less wide along the pole circles, and there seems to be passage there.

If I'm remembering my history lessons of our own history during the age of sail correctly, prevailing currents and winds are even more important than raw distance when crossing oceans and other long distances.  We could still see the fleet heading east, if currents and winds make if faster to use that route.  If that's the case, Dany could still make landfall on the west coast of Westeros and find her way to the Shadow Tower. 

 

[Waters Gate]

20 minutes ago, daccu65 said:

If I'm remembering my history lessons of our own history during the age of sail correctly, prevailing currents and winds are even more important than raw distance when crossing oceans and other long distances.  We could still see the fleet heading east, if currents and winds make if faster to use that route.  If that's the case, Dany could still make landfall on the west coast of Westeros and find her way to the Shadow Tower. 

 

That is a fantastic remark, and one that works very well if youre going to check this map:

http://science.kennesaw.edu/~jdirnber/oceanography/LecuturesOceanogr/LecCurrents/0903.jpg

Both winds and currents tend to be going to the west more along the equator and east more to the north. Kinda works both ways for Dany, she would likely have the winds and currents behind her going eitherway.

Tyrion didn't have much luck with the wind when going to Merreen, but then again considering overall currents and winds it would be normal. i think these phenonema also are somewhat season dependant though.

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

6 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

This is cool. I've already posited that Dany will hit Westeros at Oldtown, and with her dothraki and Iron Born rabble will plunder, pillage and rape their way north - coming to the Shadow Tower is a great catch.

 

5 hours ago, daccu65 said:

I had occasionally thought about the Shadow Tower, but I hadn't recalled that Mance and Qorin were based from it...that's a good and potentially important catch. 

 

If I'm remembering my history lessons of our own history during the age of sail correctly, prevailing currents and winds are even more important than raw distance when crossing oceans and other long distances.  We could still see the fleet heading east, if currents and winds make if faster to use that route.  If that's the case, Dany could still make landfall on the west coast of Westeros and find her way to the Shadow Tower. 

 

Thanks guys!

I had a look at the world book to see if there was anything else about the Shadow Tower.  Unfortunately not, but it did have the line "Beneath the shadow of that wall of ice, the Night’s Watch raised nineteen strongholds"

Possibly too subtle to be a hint to the Quaithe prophecy, but you never know! 

[House Cambodia]

2 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

 

Thanks guys!

I had a look at the world book to see if there was anything else about the Shadow Tower.  Unfortunately not, but it did have the line "Beneath the shadow of that wall of ice, the Night’s Watch raised nineteen strongholds"

Possibly too subtle to be a hint to the Quaithe prophecy, but you never know! 

Hardly - that's exactly how GRRM likes it!!

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

7 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Hardly - that's exactly how GRRM likes it!!

 

[House Beaudreau]

we may get to see Asshai in Melassandre's dreams or with Quaithe stories or dreams

[Springwatch]

Wouldn't it take at least a couple of years to sail round the globe?

[House Cambodia]

20 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Wouldn't it take at least a couple of years to sail round the globe?

And they seem to have a heck of a lot of ship/fleet-wrecking storms on the high seas of Planetos.

[Waters Gate]

17 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Wouldn't it take at least a couple of years to sail round the globe?

Depends what you define as rounding the planet and what route you take.

To round our planet, Ferdinand Magellan saild about 70.000 kilomers. Knowing that the equator is only 42.000 kilomets long it's obvious how much he was inpacted by having to take detours like around cape horn. Besides that, he was often battling against prevailing weinds and currents comming from ahead. especially at cape horn. Perhaps he had done better to round cape good hope first and Horn after it, but afaik it was also due to limited knowledge of that part of the world.

The shortest route to round the world depends on obstruction of land and the lattitude's which you can use. Say for ex. that the north pole would be much smaller so to allow passage of ships along the North of Canada and Siberia all year trough, then a person could round it by using those 2 route's. it would be a pretty strait route, and the earth is much less wide nearer to the pole circles (because round) so the distance would be more something of about 20.000km rather than 70.000km. if it had been possible it would have been just as functional for Maggelan to prove that the world is round. 

 

So if there would be a parth that can be navigated all along the north from the east of westeros going east all around the world going to the west of Westeros then that path might be more like youre highway around the world, much shorter. Likely there are also prevailing winds along such a path, making it a lot slower if you go against the winds and faster if you use them fully. 

Consider this map, it shows such currents across our clobe. Take note of the Antarctic circumpolar current, there is not too much obstruction along that current and so it's a pretty fast one if you go from East to West, James Cook used that one to good effect afaik.

http://www.seos-project.eu/modules/oceancurrents/images/global_currents.png

Take note of how long along the north of Essos as far as we can see on the map there is passage for ships. Consider that the prevailing currents would likely push you East there. Consider that the whole map we see it is roughly 13.000 kilometers wide taking the lenght of the wall as indicator. Consider that the arctic circle for ex. is only 16.000 kilometers wide, so depending at which height you put the arctic circle on that map, between that edge and the other edge of the map there is likely only be another 3000km of unknown space. Were not sure where the arctic circle is on this map, by default you would take consideration of lattitude upto which you will find tree's but a few things regarding climate and the children of the forrest might make that treeline less of a good indicator. It would be interresting to know at which longitude the North of Essos is. Say that the planet was several degree's hotter than ours during a long summer, then that arctic is indeed going to be smaller, and it might be then that the North of Essos is at a Lattitude that is not so far from our Arctic circle and yet allowing ships to pass. guess you would have zone's though along the equator where it would be very hot indeed. lets say that the world is only 20.000 kilometers wide along the North Essos shoreline, a bit of a stretch i admit. At that lattitude there woudl be another 7000 kilometers of uncharded space between right and left side of the map. Vaes Dothrak is about halfway of the Essos continent, say roughly 6000 kilometers from the middle of the continent (somewhere in the riverlands) Say that the north coast of Essos is at a lattitude where the world is 20.000 kilometers wide, then the distance on the other side would be about 14.000km. A lot more, but if you sail at half nominal speed against the wind versus double nominal speed into the wind then that aformentioned 6000km would feel like 12.000 and the 14.000 kilometers would feel more like 7000.

Then there's even the possibilety to go due north even more, the northernmost navigatable path, or even a path that might be made by using dragonfire as icebreaker. Due to the round nature of the world the shorter path might be some arc that passes as northernmost as possible.

In a practicle sense, the shortest route to the coast from Vaes Dothrak is north, and it's an Area where you will find a few Ibbenese ports and a hughe wealth in timber resources. A good place to perhaps build a fleet and find some experienced Ibbense sailers that know how to navigate that area. Though it would be a surprize if she didn't return to Merreen.

 

 

[House Cambodia]

Aargh! tl;dr.  Looks great though - so how long (in time, not km)?

Both northern route, and sailing due west from the Iron Islands?

[Waters Gate]

Heh last night's episode had Dany wondering how much ships she'd exactly need, and if there were even enough ships on the world to carry all here armies, comming to the conclusion that likely she would have to build it herself, she also asked how far it was to Merreen in riding time. Perhaps she will turn north afterall?

[Springwatch]

Just for perspective, the sailing yacht Suhaili went round the world in seven months in 1969 - and that can't have been very fast because she was small and had only one crew.

There were a lot of circumnavigations in the age of sail, but of course they made lots of stops - mostly taking about 3 years.

[Waters Gate]

14 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Just for perspective, the sailing yacht Suhaili went round the world in seven months in 1969 - and that can't have been very fast because she was small and had only one crew.

There were a lot of circumnavigations in the age of sail, but of course they made lots of stops - mostly taking about 3 years.

Suhali made something like a 60.000 to 70.000km trip? i was talking about a potential short route of about 20.000 to 25.000km minus the width of Westeros along the North. So maybe something like a 17.000 to 22.000km long route.

The 2006 edition of the Velux 5 Oceans race had the " Cheminées Poujoulat " go around the world (a trajectory in this case of 56.000km) in 103 days. Say that Dany would need to do another 14.000 kilometers eastward (from north of vaes Dothrak) with the winds and currents in her favor all the way like such Yachts woudl typicly have then she could do that distance with the " " Cheminées Poujoulat " in  25.75 days.

Obviously medieval ships are going to take longer than these little boats though.