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The food of the Asoiaf world, and the lack of potato


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On 22/03/2017 at 9:19 AM, Renly's Banana said:

Westeros is, geographically, a mixture of Europe and the Americas. There are swamps and bogs in Westeros (complete with alligators/crocodiles) which obviously are not found in Europe. There's also Dorne, which is similar to the Southwestern U.S. and parts of North Africa. There's no reason to assume potatoes and corn and other non-European foods don't exist there. Mormont is always feeding his crow corn, so.

There used to be swamps and bogs in Medieval Europe and there are still some in less densely populated areas (such as in areas that used to be off-limits during the Cold War). Not sure how much the lizard lions can be cited as an example since they live in a cold, northern swamp the likes of which exist in Europe but don't really house large reptiles in our world, and really the Nevk doresn't exactly bring the Everglades or the Bayou to mind, but rather the large swamps of parts of Scandinavia or the Baltic area,

And southern Spain in very hot and dry, kind of like Dorne.

But I agree that there are elements from various continents in Westeros, best example: Littlefinger's symbol is a mockingbird. There are no Mockingbirds native to Europe. So unless Baelish derives his emblem from some sort of mythical creature, Westeros features some new world fauna. 

Also iirc the Riverlands have redwoods. Redwoods aren't native to Europe either.

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I always read Westeros as an enlarged version of the British Isles mashed together and stretched so it as large as the continent of North America giving it massive climate and habitat variation. The area around Last Hearth/The Gift seems to be a mix between tundra and taiga with pinewood forest appearing as you head down south. The far south around the Reach to the very end at Sunspear feels like a continental Europe southern Spain/France.

And bog/swamps did indeed exist in Europe - the Celts were fond of sacrificing people to the bogs. Tollund man is a famous example. Plus I remember hearing that king Henry the Eighth contracted malaria in his youth.

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On 28. Mai 2016 at 9:41 PM, Waters Gate said:

The thing is, people in Westeros have all kind of food, but not everything i guess. We do not tend to take much notice of the food they eat and where it would have originated from in the world, perhaps it would be interresting to kno what they lack. I do not think ive seen any mention before of:

Rice, Cacao, potato's, corn, tobacco, coconuts, and probably a lot more

[...]

There is one mention of "black rice" among the goods Dany offers to masters of Astapor along with Drogon.

There are also no pheasants, although they have been well-known game birds in Europe since the Middle Ages. They were also introduced from Asia, though.

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On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 3:41 PM, Waters Gate said:

Atleast i do think there is a lack of potato, havn't seen mention before of potato, but then again thats fairly logical.

What is this thread about? Well my initial intention was something along the lines of "mapping the world trough food". Because not all kinds of food were to be found everywhere in medeival times. The potato is a product of South America and historicly only arrived in europe after the age of exploration. It had to come from America. So did many other stuff, like corn afaik.

The thing is, people in Westeros have all kind of food, but not everything i guess. We do not tend to take much notice of the food they eat and where it would have originated from in the world, perhaps it would be interresting to kno what they lack. I do not think ive seen any mention before of:

Rice, Cacao, potato's, corn, tobacco, coconuts, and probably a lot more

While they do have stuff like:

Silk, and various spices like cloves and Saffron, and obvious local stuff like grain and say lemons

 

Especially the cloves are rater exotic. In our world they are native to the Mollukes, part of the Oceanic island group and the historical "spice islands". They were traded though in medieval times already.

 

I guess it would be a bit of a hassle to make a complete list of everythig they have and what they lack. it would be more interresting to know when things seem out of place. In principle since Westeros has the kind of food that you'd likely find on our world in Western europe, you'd think that the other foodstuffs like potato exist too but just havn't been found yet, by noone on the map in fact because otehrwise the potato would surely have spread. (it's that good) So that would suggest that there is likely another undescovered continent, but frankly given how few we know of the world that notion probably won't come as much of a surprize. Any know existance however of any foodstuff that is one that traditionally would have been native to the America's (like afaik tobacco, cacao, maize, corn, potato, sugarreed) would be note worthy though.

 

Edit: doing some research, there already is a list of all the food mentione din the series here: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Food

If anyone finds something in there out of place feel free to mention.

 

 

Wow, this is good. I never noticed this before.

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GRRM is a bloody good writer who does his research well.

Westeros is Britain  of the middle ages and Essos the rest of Europe and north Africa

GRRM seems to have a specialist interest (obsession!!!) with medieval diet and feasts.

He used corn on the general sense and would NEVER have introduced potatoes or tomatoes.

So the things that actually have or eat will be those things that were available in medieval Britain. They have Linen but not cotton. Silk was known of although a great luxury.

So it is not an accident that they did not have potatoes.

I do not think that the is any new World at all in Planetos and nothing whatever of the Americas. We certainly can see the arctic lands and China, Japan, the middle east and India seems to be there if distantly. Southeros is Sub-saharan Africa and the Summer Isles i guess the Caribbean and Ultheros Australia and South East Asia. 

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Medieval Britain was much warmer than today and wine was grown certainly in Southern areas. I see Dorne (at least initially as being warm like Cornwall.

Not only were there bogs but the whole Neck is very like the mystical areas of Britain where druids hung out - marshy and boggy.

The North seems very like Scotland/Scandinavia

 

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On 22-3-2017 at 9:19 AM, Renly's Banana said:

Westeros is, geographically, a mixture of Europe and the Americas. There are swamps and bogs in Westeros (complete with alligators/crocodiles) which obviously are not found in Europe. There's also Dorne, which is similar to the Southwestern U.S. and parts of North Africa. There's no reason to assume potatoes and corn and other non-European foods don't exist there. Mormont is always feeding his crow corn, so.

Climate is no indication for what will grow there nativly. The climate of Britttain is rather similar to that of say Argentina, South Africa and Austrialia, but rest asure that the fauna and flora is very different.

Difference's in fauna and flora are mainly there it seems due to distance and sepperate evolution. There is a reason why Darwin did most of his studies on very remote islands with peculiar fauna and flora.

 

On 23-8-2016 at 6:37 AM, Lord Fauntleroy said:

In a world that may have dinosaurs roaming about still, I would think that corn growing in  their version of "europe" is not that strange. 

 

Overall, the Fauna and Flora of Weseros seems to be very simmilar to western Europe. Intristicly from a litterary perspective there should be no issue with potatoes being native to Westeros as one can argue that this world is just different in that way, however Grrm didn't write Westeros nessecarily as something that contained a bit of everything, its quite a realistic western Europe in terms of foodstuffs safe from some oddity's. Thats the thing with GRRM, he actually goes in detail enough to paint a relative realistic picture of what Westerosi would be eating including with some exotic stuff being "exotic" tradegoods like spices and silk. And then there are a few things perhaps out of place.

Mind, the dragons might be something of an explenation of how certain things might eventually wind down in westeros, as birds are a way in which a lot of seeds get transported arund the world, though granted the dragons are carnivore's. It might just stick to them perhaps, dragons have been used for long travel like the Valyrian women who went to explore Sotherys.

 

A small list of what goods seem to be "out of place" for now

 

On 29-5-2016 at 8:06 AM, Falcon2908 said:

The TV series has potatoes though. In season 4, we get to see Olly looking forward to eat hot potatoes for supper. 

corn: as discussed here its quite possible but can also be a misunderstanding

rice, as an exotic good

On 7-5-2017 at 8:00 AM, Gargarax said:

There is one mention of "black rice" among the goods Dany offers to masters of Astapor along with Drogon.

Pumpkins and certain squirrels

On 8-5-2017 at 9:15 PM, SeaWitch said:

Pumpkins are a New World crop, too.  (The soup in AGoT Arya II?)  Also, grey squirrels. (Pycelle, curious as a small grey squirrel) - the native European squirrel is red.  

 

Now what to do with this info?

 

On 4-6-2017 at 3:15 PM, Luddagain said:

GRRM is a bloody good writer who does his research well.

Westeros is Britain  of the middle ages and Essos the rest of Europe and north Africa

GRRM seems to have a specialist interest (obsession!!!) with medieval diet and feasts.

He used corn on the general sense and would NEVER have introduced potatoes or tomatoes.

So the things that actually have or eat will be those things that were available in medieval Britain. They have Linen but not cotton. Silk was known of although a great luxury.

So it is not an accident that they did not have potatoes.

I do not think that the is any new World at all in Planetos and nothing whatever of the Americas. We certainly can see the arctic lands and China, Japan, the middle east and India seems to be there if distantly. Southeros is Sub-saharan Africa and the Summer Isles i guess the Caribbean and Ultheros Australia and South East Asia. 


Genneraly i would agree that "where GRRM introduces an oddity where he is otherwise realistic, it leaves questions"

As of the goods discussed, you might be right that while potatoes feature in the show that GRRM wouldn't put it in the books, and that what he calls corn is just a general name for staple goods. It does beg the question for the grain if he had mentioned them toghether with grain and wheat as someone remarked here. For exotic goods like rice, silk or spices we can simply argue that it is traded from the east and we know there is an extensive trade network between Westeros and the east.

Credit to Seawatch though for remarking pumpkins as used in Arya's pumpkin soup, because the pumpkin is truly native to North America. That seems to be atleast one foodstuff used by GRRM in the books that theoreticly could not exist in Westeros if Westeros represented medieval western Europe, whereas most foodstuffs find in the books look rather very logical for the area and there is a lack of many foodstuffs that would seem illogical in that western Eurpe setting like say Chocolate, tobacco, coconuts etc.

 

Now to question: what to do with this, especilly the pumpkin then? There are various possibillety's afcourse. The simple one would typically be "GRRM made an error", though granted we wouldn't expect it so much from him when he takes apparent care of what sort of stuff he mentions. Second possibilety is that there is no error, the pumpkin is there nativly for some reason either for a reason or no perculiar reason. It begs the question why Arya must make here weasel soup with pumpkins then as there should be plenty of alternative.

The third possibilety is that its not native to Weseros but it's there and that has a purpose. GRRM likes to hint people with little details and perhaps that is one of them. The problem afcourse is that it's blurry as to what point GRRM could try to make with it for the sake of the Story.

In general, What Westerosi have nativly and otherwise get from somewhere else would more show the kind of trade relations and contacts between civilizations that exist in the books. The presence of certain goods might indicate that the world is far larger and more poppulated than what we get from the map, but again that notion wouldn't be particulary farfetched.

So i'm left to ask people the question here, specificly for what relate's the Pumpkins that are native to North America. Did Grrm make an error, or was that deliberate and with a reason?

 

If there is a underlying hint, then i guess the more logical one would be for me that Westeros is connected to "the america's" trough the north, as that would present a route by which the Pumpkin could arrive in Westeros.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Waters Gate said:

Climate is no indication for what will grow there nativly. The climate of Britttain is rather similar to that of say Argentina, South Africa and Austrialia, but rest asure that the fauna and flora is very different.

Difference's in fauna and flora are mainly there it seems due to distance and sepperate evolution. There is a reason why Darwin did most of his studies on very remote islands with peculiar fauna and flora.

 

 

Overall, the Fauna and Flora of Weseros seems to be very simmilar to western Europe. Intristicly from a litterary perspective there should be no issue with potatoes being native to Westeros as one can argue that this world is just different in that way, however Grrm didn't write Westeros nessecarily as something that contained a bit of everything, its quite a realistic western Europe in terms of foodstuffs safe from some oddity's. Thats the thing with GRRM, he actually goes in detail enough to paint a relative realistic picture of what Westerosi would be eating including with some exotic stuff being "exotic" tradegoods like spices and silk. And then there are a few things perhaps out of place.

Mind, the dragons might be something of an explenation of how certain things might eventually wind down in westeros, as birds are a way in which a lot of seeds get transported arund the world, though granted the dragons are carnivore's. It might just stick to them perhaps, dragons have been used for long travel like the Valyrian women who went to explore Sotherys.

 

A small list of what goods seem to be "out of place" for now

 

corn: as discussed here its quite possible but can also be a misunderstanding

rice, as an exotic good

Pumpkins and certain squirrels

 

Now what to do with this info?

 


Genneraly i would agree that "where GRRM introduces an oddity where he is otherwise realistic, it leaves questions"

As of the goods discussed, you might be right that while potatoes feature in the show that GRRM wouldn't put it in the books, and that what he calls corn is just a general name for staple goods. It does beg the question for the grain if he had mentioned them toghether with grain and wheat as someone remarked here. For exotic goods like rice, silk or spices we can simply argue that it is traded from the east and we know there is an extensive trade network between Westeros and the east.

Credit to Seawatch though for remarking pumpkins as used in Arya's pumpkin soup, because the pumpkin is truly native to North America. That seems to be atleast one foodstuff used by GRRM in the books that theoreticly could not exist in Westeros if Westeros represented medieval western Europe, whereas most foodstuffs find in the books look rather very logical for the area and there is a lack of many foodstuffs that would seem illogical in that western Eurpe setting like say Chocolate, tobacco, coconuts etc.

 

Now to question: what to do with this, especilly the pumpkin then? There are various possibillety's afcourse. The simple one would typically be "GRRM made an error", though granted we wouldn't expect it so much from him when he takes apparent care of what sort of stuff he mentions. Second possibilety is that there is no error, the pumpkin is there nativly for some reason either for a reason or no perculiar reason. It begs the question why Arya must make here weasel soup with pumpkins then as there should be plenty of alternative.

The third possibilety is that its not native to Weseros but it's there and that has a purpose. GRRM likes to hint people with little details and perhaps that is one of them. The problem afcourse is that it's blurry as to what point GRRM could try to make with it for the sake of the Story.

In general, What Westerosi have nativly and otherwise get from somewhere else would more show the kind of trade relations and contacts between civilizations that exist in the books. The presence of certain goods might indicate that the world is far larger and more poppulated than what we get from the map, but again that notion wouldn't be particulary farfetched.

So i'm left to ask people the question here, specificly for what relate's the Pumpkins that are native to North America. Did Grrm make an error, or was that deliberate and with a reason?

 

If there is a underlying hint, then i guess the more logical one would be for me that Westeros is connected to "the america's" trough the north, as that would present a route by which the Pumpkin could arrive in Westeros.

 

 

I have a theory (bear with me) that Westeros is the Earth, billions (millions?) of years into the future.

My theory is that our world (as we know it) was destroyed in a nuclear holocaust (or something more creative than that). The Maesters (supposedly the wisest) really don't know how old the world is. 

It could be bombs that leveled cities and destroyed entire civilizations- not necessarily dragon fire. Even maesters acknowledge that very little is known about the past, and the tales cannot be taken as fact. 

I haven't worked out all the details yet, but this could explain some of the similarities and differences. In this theory, there would have been a continental shift. The "unknown" world may have more evidence of our world today.

Totally crazy? :) 

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15 minutes ago, Reisendame said:

I have a theory (bear with me) that Westeros is the Earth, billions (millions?) of years into the future.

My theory is that our world (as we know it) was destroyed in a nuclear holocaust (or something more creative than that). The Maesters (supposedly the wisest) really don't know how old the world is. 

It could be bombs that leveled cities and destroyed entire civilizations- not necessarily dragon fire. Even maesters acknowledge that very little is known about the past, and the tales cannot be taken as fact. 

I haven't worked out all the details yet, but this could explain some of the similarities and differences. In this theory, there would have been a continental shift. The "unknown" world may have more evidence of our world today.

Totally crazy? :) 

Not so crazy, depends on how you look at it. I will rewrite youre theory as "a more modern civilization existed in the past that got wiped by a cataclysmic event", for reasons that a nuclear holocoast is rather specific with it's own intricate results whereas trough history weve seen plenty of cataclysmic events ending civilizations. It could be a meteorite, or the arrivel of some natural ice age, or perhaps the erruption of a super volcano, frankly there are plenty of possibilety's to get the same result. Though i guess we could question what sort of cultivation or fauna would survive such an event. Obviously if you have a cataclysmic event that ends modern civilization then a likely factor would have been the failing of crops and huge starvation, as often happens in such cases. What i don't know is why only some new world goods would survive to remain while others wouldn't.

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20 minutes ago, Waters Gate said:

Not so crazy, depends on how you look at it. I will rewrite youre theory as "a more modern civilization existed in the past that got wiped by a cataclysmic event", for reasons that a nuclear holocoast is rather specific with it's own intricate results whereas trough history weve seen plenty of cataclysmic events ending civilizations. It could be a meteorite, or the arrivel of some natural ice age, or perhaps the erruption of a super volcano, frankly there are plenty of possibilety's to get the same result. Though i guess we could question what sort of cultivation or fauna would survive such an event. Obviously if you have a cataclysmic event that ends modern civilization then a likely factor would have been the failing of crops and huge starvation, as often happens in such cases. What i don't know is why only some new world goods would survive to remain while others wouldn't.

Those are all very good points! I prefer your wording of the theory. Thank you :)  

There are SO many factors to consider and research, if I really wanted to develop and write the thesis. Like I said, I haven't worked it all out yet.... and I'm wondering if I have the time! 

"We" (fans, as a whole) spend a lot of time speculating about the big reveal. I keep thinking it's got to be something bigger than "who's the Targaryen?"-- hope I'm not setting myself up for disappointment! 

Back to the topic of food/consumables... Someone mentioned the absence of coffee. That brings to mind the absence of stimulants, aside from tea-- though I'm not clear if any of their tea contains caffeine. Is that ever specified? We have moon tea and hear of other roots/ leaves being boiled- but I don't recall anything with a stimulating effect.

We have Milk of the Poppy, Shade of the Evening, "regular" wines and ales... there are depressants, hallucinogens.. but, as far as I know, no mention of something similar to the coca leaf (or Kratom, another stimulant in the form of a leaf). My *guess* is that coffee, coca, kratom may also be found in Sothoryos or other parts unknown to Westerosi.

Unless I've missed something? 

 

 

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On 19/3/2017 at 7:23 PM, Byfort of Corfe said:

Remember Westeros is not Medieval Europe, it has the foods that GRRM chooses to place there so yes, there are turkeys and Maize type corn.  Hot peppers in Dorne seem to be a staple, Areo Hotah comments on how spicy Dornish food is.

I think the spiced foods in Dorne have pepper, not chili pepper...

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On 04/06/2017 at 3:15 PM, Luddagain said:

I do not think that the is any new World at all in Planetos and nothing whatever of the Americas.

So the Mockingbirds, Grey Squirrels and Redwoods are special, magical Mockingbirds, Grey Squirrels and Redwoods that commuted from the Americas to Medieval England?

On 04/06/2017 at 3:20 PM, Luddagain said:

Medieval Britain was much warmer than today and wine was grown certainly in Southern areas. I see Dorne (at least initially as being warm like Cornwall.

Cornwall is not a scorching hot desert and has not been a scorching hot desert even during the Medieval Warm period.

Westeros is not the clear-cut, simply analogy you wish it to be.

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1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

So the Mockingbirds, Grey Squirrels and Redwoods are special, magical Mockingbirds, Grey Squirrels and Redwoods that commuted from the Americas to Medieval England?

Cornwall is not a scorching hot desert and has not been a scorching hot desert even during the Medieval Warm period.

Westeros is not the clear-cut, simply analogy you wish it to be.

There are dawn redwoods in China, so they aren't a exclusively American thing...

I guess GRRM really wanted to use the Mockingbird as Petyr's symbol, because of his liking for japes and japs and mocking...

House Wythers is a grey-colored squirrel, but that doesn't mean it is an american grey squirrel (Sciurus griseus), it could be just a grey-haired red squirrel (Sciurus vulgaris)

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1 hour ago, Ser Lepus said:

There are dawn redwoods in China, so they aren't a exclusively American thing...

I guess GRRM really wanted to use the Mockingbird as Petyr's symbol, because of his liking for japes and japs and mocking...

House Wythers is a grey-colored squirrel, but that doesn't mean it is an american grey squirrel (Sciurus griseus), it could be just a grey-haired red squirrel (Sciurus vulgaris)

China isn't in Medieval England either...

And the mockingbirds exists, no way around that, so there is at least one animal form the New World in Westeros. 

 

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On 6/4/2017 at 2:20 PM, Luddagain said:

Medieval Britain was much warmer than today and wine was grown certainly in Southern areas. I see Dorne (at least initially as being warm like Cornwall.

Not only were there bogs but the whole Neck is very like the mystical areas of Britain where druids hung out - marshy and boggy.

The North seems very like Scotland/Scandinavia

 

Wine is still grown in certain southern areas of England, tbh. They don't drink it for a reason, but that's another matter.

Anyway, the analogy with Britain holds as south as the riverlands, than you start having warm climates (King's Landing looks very much like a Mediterranean city - no wonder it's been shot in Dubrovnik) and more mountains and fruit than Britain can imagine (the Westerlands, the Vale, the Reach especially which looks a lot like southern France) not to mention Dorne (which is clearly the Planetos version of Spain, with tall red mountains, extremely hot cities on the coast and a desertic land.

And if we go into the political thing, Britain never had a unified country until 1707 and that no "nation" in Europe has ever had the size of the Seven Kingdoms after the Roman Empire. In the middle ages, the only thing that could match the size of the Westerosi kingdom (in the Hadrian's Wall/The Wall ratio) is the Holy Roman Empire, which was not in Britain. 

Back to the point, there are clear indications that what GRRM wanted to do was a Middle Age Europe with his Westeros - hence the exclusion of tomatoes and potatoes, which soon became a very important part of the European diet - but since it's his own world, he could add whatever he liked. Pumpkins might have been a mistake, they never really got into European diet anyway so he might've missed that they were absent completely before 1492, and corn too might be a mistake due to the fact that corn has a different meaning in British English, but the Mockingbird clearly is not.

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