Frey civil war

[Ser Something]

This isn't a 'theory' as such, but more of a "wouldn't it be cool if this happened" sort of thing.

Studying the extensive Frey family tree, the issue of Walder's heir is very interesting. At the start of the books it goes Walder senior > Stevron > Ryman > Edwyn, from father to son. Edwyn has no sons, so after him comes his brother, good old Black Walder Frey.

In the course of the books both Stevron and Ryman have died in somewhat suspicious circumstances, and Edwyn suspects his brother of being responsible for the latter at least. Now the heir to the twins, he seems to think his brother might be happy to see him die next. Now I'm sure many readers like me suspect Black Walder could be trying to kill off family members to inherit the Twins himself.

Stevron was wounded at the Battle of Oxcross, and then unexpectedly died a few days later. Easy to imagine Black Walder having a hand in that. Both of them were part of Robb's western army.

Ryman was supposedly hanged by outlaws on his way back to the Twins. Though personally I doubt Black Walder could have organised that (it would require working with the 'outlaw's, presumably the Brotherhood, or having quite a few accomplices himself who would know what he's up to. Presumably Ryman went with an armed escort who would need overpowering).... I'm sure he wouldn't take it as bad news.

Just to remind you - this is his father and grandfather we are talking about!

Ok, so what happens next?

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What if Walder Frey senior dies in the next book? It could easily happen, and I would like to see it happen for plot reasons. He is very old. He could easily drop down dead. With or without help from his great-grandson, it doesn't matter. As fun as the idea of him being ancient yet stubbornly clinging to life is, I think the 'what happens next' situation after his death is much more fun.

Suddenly Edwyn is Lord of the Crossing, and Black Walder is the heir.

Now what if Black Walder gets impatient ./ sloppy, and Edwyn suddenly dies under very suspicious circumstances. Black Walder claims the Twins, and this is where it gets interesting, because surely at that point his family will take note. Perhaps they will know he obviously killed his brother, and now think aloud that he may be responsible for the death of father, grandfather and great-grandfather. 

Enter Ser Hosteen! Hosteen Frey has been busy in the north hanging out with the Boltons. Let's say he and his Frey army returns south for whatever reason (either victorious or defeated, it does not matter). He comes to the Twins and finds Black Walder lording it up in the southern castle, He calls bullshit on his brother, and takes the northern castle. 

We now have a Frey civil war! Those in support of Black Walder on one side of the bridge, those who want him ousted on the other. If Black Walder was removed, who would be next in line?

Well, there is a Walton, who is Ryman's brother and Black Walder's uncle. There is also Emmon and his brood, but they are seemingly more interestred in being Lannisters than Freys. Ser Aenys is dead, one of his sons (Aegon) is an outlaw, and the other (Rhaegar) seems to have been baked in a pie. Rhaegar did leave two sons, Robert (thirteen) and Jonos (eight).

Next, from Walder senior's second marriage, we have Ser Jared, also now in a pie. He left a son (Tytos), who died at the Red Wedding, and a grandson (Zachery), who seems to be studying to be a Septon.

And next, by Walder senior's third wife, we have Ser Hosteen himself.

So with Black Walder removed, there would be a few claimants to the Twins. Walton would be the next logical choice, but strangely I can find no information at all about him! If we skip Emmon's family, and Aeny's surviving family (whom are children), Ser Hosteen seems like a very strong alternative.

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So the result would be a Frey civil war, focused around the Twins. I can just imagine both sides sallying forth to fight it out on the bridge! It would effectively remove House Frey from the power struggle of Westeros politics.

The kinslaying Black Walder versus Ser Hosteen, either in support of a younger claimant, the mysterious Walton Frey, or perhaps himself.

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I have no evidence that any of this will actually happen. But wouldn't that be cool?

I don't know if anyone here have any other Frey theories, or any other ideas of a Frey civil war.. I've only just now started reading this forum. I have heard one youtuber I follow off-handedly mention he believes there is going to be a Frey civil war, but I have no idea what he's basing that on, how he thinks it's going to pan out, and if it's anything like my idea.

I'd love to discuss House Frey some though, so if anyone has any theories or ideas of what could happen to them in the next two books, please share!

Some questions worth considering....

• Is Black Walder a kinslayer?
• How much of the current 'character' and reputation of House Frey is down to Walder himself?
• How was House Frey viewed pre-Walder?
• Does Walder keep the family unified? Would any other Lord fail to do so?
• What would House Frey look like post-Walder?
• Will Lord Walder kick the bucket soon?
• What's going to happen with House Frey next?

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

There won't be a need for a civil war after the Crannogmen, in the dead of a moonless night, drift quietly down the river to the Twins, breathing underwater through hollow bamboo straws, scale the walls and slaughter the lot of them.

Which I think is one plausible scenario for the future. The enmity between the Freys and the "bog devils" has been emphasized quite repeatedly in the last few books.

Futhermore, the wheel has to turn, and if the Starks could be the victim of surprise attack while their main strength was away in the South, then there is no reason why the Freys could not be the victim of a similar attack while much of their forces are in the North with Roose Bolton, or spread across other parts of the Riverlands.

 

[DarkSister1001]

Welcome!

I agree with @Free Northman Reborn.  I think the surprise attack will come from Nymeria and her pack.  I like the idea that the most fertile family in Westeros will get wiped out (hopefully). 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

33 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Welcome!

I agree with @Free Northman Reborn.  I think the surprise attack will come from Nymeria and her pack.  I like the idea that the most fertile family in Westeros will get wiped out (hopefully). 

Personally I wouldn't mind if Olyvar, Perwyn, and Roslin survive this Frey massacre. 

[DarkSister1001]

6 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Personally I wouldn't mind if Olyvar, Perwyn, and Roslin survive this Frey massacre. 

I like those kids.  Roslin is a Tully now so I'll let her live.  The others gots to go or at least pick up a job that relinquishes them of the Frey name. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

Problem is, if Rosslyn survives, a Frey descendant will inherit Riverrun, giving old Walder his heart's desire, albeit posthumously.

Can't have that.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Black Walder had nothing to do with Ryman, we know what happened.  Ryman left the siege of Riverrun with Robbs crown, and when we see Lady Stoneheart she has it.  Tom O Sevens was there to tell the brotherhood the heir to house Frey was leaving.

I was with you until you brought up Hosteen coming south.  No Frey is leaving the North alive.

[Scorpion92]

I think that would be the curse of Freys - after Walder's death, his family members will be fighting for his seat, which will kill off and weaken their status, and then outside source which is associated with Starks will come and finish them off (hopefully, Nymeria and her pack after Arya kills the guards and lets them through the gates).

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Personally I wouldn't mind if Olyvar, Perwyn, and Roslin survive this Frey massacre. 

I would every Frey has got to go. 

[Neolaina]

Gonna cut out a few things for cleanliness.

But I will say this: the setup for the Freys going at each other has been established by talk of inheritance, as well as through the conversation between Little and Big Walder re: succession. Further, many Freys have already died. Whether or not it devolves into a civil war, well, that's a stretch. But, I don't think Freys coming to blows against each other is.

As for Olyvar, Perwin and Roslin, they're the exceptions. Never forget Olyvar wanted to stay on as Robb's squire. That alone endeared him to me, despite being a Frey.

5 hours ago, Ser Something said:

In the course of the books both Stevron and Ryman have died in somewhat suspicious circumstances, and Edwyn suspects his brother of being responsible for the latter at least. Now the heir to the twins, he seems to think his brother might be happy to see him die next. Now I'm sure many readers like me suspect Black Walder could be trying to kill off family members to inherit the Twins himself.

It's established, through the inclusion of Tom O'Sevenstrings in the scenes involving the Freys and Jaime, that the BwB intercepted and executed Ryman. It's not explicitly explained, but it's pretty overt. Tom's presence is clearly for the purpose of spying, and communicating important information. We already know the BwB has a throbbing, diamond-caliber hard-on/drip, drop, drippin' wet canal/insert genitalia metaphor for killing Freys. Hardly suspicious to us, the readers. They were also hanged, which is the BwB modus operandi for executing Freys.

But, Edwyn does suspect something foul. And he's quite explicit with regard to Black Walder. This is disproved, at least in my eyes, by BW's presence at Seagard, where he's holding the town under siege/holding the town under control, with the Mallisters imprisoned.

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Stevron was wounded at the Battle of Oxcross, and then unexpectedly died a few days later. Easy to imagine Black Walder having a hand in that. Both of them were part of Robb's western army.

It's more likely that Stevron died of his wounds, given his description of being quite old and tired. Even a small wound can have grave consequences for those who're older.  It's also feasible, though I don't particularly think possible, that Stevron was killed by BW, either purposely or for mercy. I don't think think Black Walder's machinations - if we're to believe Edwyn - would have started until after Robb married Jeyne. Remember, until this point, the Freys had everything to gain.

Skipping the next bit, because you say much of the same.

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What if Walder Frey senior dies in the next book? It could easily happen, and I would like to see it happen for plot reasons. He is very old. He could easily drop down dead. With or without help from his great-grandson, it doesn't matter. As fun as the idea of him being ancient yet stubbornly clinging to life is, I think the 'what happens next' situation after his death is much more fun.

Suddenly Edwyn is Lord of the Crossing, and Black Walder is the heir.

This will likely happen. I've long thought Walder Frey wasn't long for this world, given his age and his disposition. In a sense, allowing the Red Wedding was his last great maneuver. So far, it's only lead to their ruin.

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Now what if Black Walder gets impatient ./ sloppy, and Edwyn suddenly dies under very suspicious circumstances. Black Walder claims the Twins, and this is where it gets interesting, because surely at that point his family will take note. Perhaps they will know he obviously killed his brother, and now think aloud that he may be responsible for the death of father, grandfather and great-grandfather. 

This is where I stop you. I know it's all supposition anyways, but hear me out. I don't believe the majority of the Freys are going to be living much longer, but I'm also not of the belief that all of a sudden, they'll all meet up and have at each other.

You're under the assumption that Black Walder will act against Edwyn. Suppose the reverse happens, a few more Freys die, and once Walder bites the bullet, Edwyn's already established distrust causes him to act against Black Walder. Remember, this paranoia has been established. I can't see Edwyn easily being caught unaware. I can see him making more inexplicable judgments against his brother. After all, he's already made one. And we know succession is an issue for the Freys.

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Enter Ser Hosteen! Hosteen Frey has been busy in the north hanging out with the Boltons. Let's say he and his Frey army returns south for whatever reason (either victorious or defeated, it does not matter). He comes to the Twins and finds Black Walder lording it up in the southern castle, He calls bullshit on his brother, and takes the northern castle.

No. The Freys who've gone north will die there. Aenys is already gone, and Hosteen's sure to quickly follow. I know you ask us to imagine him coming back south, but I can't even hypothetically allow for that. It's too far removed from reality. After all, there is a chance at some Frey v.s. Frey action in my eyes, but it won't involve Hosteen. He's the commander of the Freys in the North, and now that Aenys is gone, he's the best they have. And the only place they'll be leaving is the mortal coil.

Why do I think this? Welp, Hosteen's known as being strong, and a good fighter. He's also known for being slow to anger, but once he's angry, it persists. Finally, he's also thought to be not too bright. He's known for this trait.

These traits, given his current circumstances, will be the death of him.

I'm going to pare the next part down a bit.

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- Walton, who is Ryman's brother and Black Walder's uncle.

- Emmon and his brood, but they are seemingly more interestred in being Lannisters than Freys.

 - Ser Aenys is dead, one of his sons (Aegon) is an outlaw, and the other (Rhaegar) seems to have been baked in a pie.

 - Rhaegar did leave two sons, Robert (thirteen) and Jonos (eight).

- Ser Jared, also now in a pie.

- He left a son (Tytos), who died at the Red Wedding,

- a grandson (Zachery), who seems to be studying to be a Septon.

- Ser Hosteen himself.

So with Black Walder removed, there would be a few claimants to the Twins. Walton would be the next logical choice, but strangely I can find no information at all about him! If we skip Emmon's family, and Aeny's surviving family (whom are children), Ser Hosteen seems like a very strong alternative.

Walton would also be Edwyn's uncle, and since we know literally nothing about the man, it's hard for me to say what he might do. Those who're dead, or too young, I've crossed out.

But I've also crossed out Hosteen. I feel with his anger aroused, with Aenys dead, with a medley of dead Freys in the North, and a Manderly, a man whom he almost killed in the halls of Winterfell, I can't see him leaving without finishing his work there. His anger must be sated.

Which leaves Walton, from those mentioned. Skipping the civil war supposes, and straight to your bullets...

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Some questions worth considering....

• Is Black Walder a kinslayer? Feasible, but I don't think so.
• How much of the current 'character' and reputation of House Frey is down to Walder himself? Literally all of it. Every poor quality that seems to be attributed to the Freys stems from Walder. And his House is likely tainted given his connection to the some 60+ members of his brood. I can't think of any Freys who don't stem from him.
• How was House Frey viewed pre-Walder? Probably not all that badly. There's a Frey in one of the Dunk and Egg stories, and he messes off back to the Twins when rebellion seems afoot.
• Does Walder keep the family unified? Would any other Lord fail to do so? It seems that he does, but only by virtue of still being alive in his old age. He's still the head. His oldest children are well past their prime, and seem little fit to rule. The fact that their line of succession resembles the first 60 claimants of the British crown, with the exception of them all stemming from Frey himself - suggests a need to stay unified. Civil war would break their House.
• What would House Frey look like post-Walder? Had the Red Wedding not happened, and the Starks/Tullys and Freys managed to concoct some form of peace, probably nothing. With the line of succession shattered, but without all the deaths to the Freys, likely civil war as you've suggested. However, given the mass amount of casualties they've suffered, and the ignominy associated with their House, among some other adjectives, their only chance at survival is through co-operation.
• Will Lord Walder kick the bucket soon? Without a doubt.
• What's going to happen with House Frey next? If Edwyn doesn't die, he'll likely try and rein in the rest of the Freys in order to do some rebuilding. Black Walder might opt to vie for power, and they may very well end up throwing their own forces against each other. If Edwyn acts on his suspicions, it's likely that Black Walder will end up dead. If Edwyn does die, Black Walder will gain the seat, and probably attempt to rein in the rest of the Freys. But, as it stands, the Twins is the only safe place for the Freys, and once winter hits the Riverlands, they're not like to last too long.

Moral of this horribly long post?

Whatever civil war might happen, regardless of its' makeup, the only Freys will be dead Freys. Except for Big Walder.

 

[Seams]

7 hours ago, Ser Something said:

I don't know if anyone here have any other Frey theories, or any other ideas of a Frey civil war.. . . .

I'd love to discuss House Frey some though, so if anyone has any theories or ideas of what could happen to them in the next two books, please share!

A lot of my crackpot ideas grow from puns. I believe the Frey name is supposed to be a pun on "fray," the thing that happens to fabric when it wears out and the weave starts coming apart. This goes with all the sewing imagery, Arya's sword needle, etc.

But "fray" has another meaning: "a usually disorderly or protracted fight, struggle, or dispute," according the Merriam Webster. In other words, a melee. So I think GRRM set up the Frey family from the beginning for a bloodbath of their own making.

You'll find other threads in this forum that speculate that Big Walder killed Little Walder at Winterfell, using the apparent random serial killings after the Bolton wedding as a cover. It would not be a surprise at all if more than one Frey is trying to work his way to the top, knocking off relatives. That's how a melee works, right?

"Wards" and "swords" was the first pun that launched me on analyzing GRRM's wordplay, and I believe that Big Walder and Little Walder represent swords that somehow "belong" to Catelyn Stark. (They are always described as Catelyn's wards.) Since Ned's sword, Ice, was split into two, I don't know whether BW and LW are supposed to represent Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, or whether they are entirely different, unnamed "weapons." Certainly Lady Stoneheart would be interested in seeing as many Freys wiped out as possible, as revenge for the Red Wedding. So it would make sense, if the ward / sword pun is accurate, that Catelyn's remaining ward would be killing other Freys.

[finger]

^I don't know if the pun is needed. Fray means also a fight or a tournament, btw.

It's told that Frey brothers tend to team in front of their half-brothers (that's a melée, also). Some strange deaths have been and suspicion should be mounting. Out of greed or fear, they're bound to kill each other.

Anyhow, Freys are doomed. In his first appearance after the Red Wedding, Bran is made to remind the story of the Rat Cook, who feeds on his young forever, for having broken the guest right. Pretty clear, no? And if they don't kill each other first, there's no lack of families thirsty of Frey blood,... even some seem hungry of Frey flesh, actually. To finish with, they're in the middle of LF's path, I guess. No future.

As for Arya... she'll lead her pack, it's been foretold. What will her pack be? That's to be seen. Her former direwolf Nymeria is leading a pack of wolves, while Arya is often called she-wolf, wolf bitch, and so. LSH, her un-mother, or something, is leading the BwB, whom she's acquainted. By the present she's with the FM, fulfilling her tasks, but keeping Needle. A few options remain open.

 

[Brannis the Mannis]

9 hours ago, The Wolves said:

I would every Frey has got to go. 

Are you a psychopath or something?

[The Wolves]

53 minutes ago, Brannis the Mannis said:

Are you a psychopath or something?

Seriously it's fictional characters. 

[dariopatke]

13 hours ago, The Wolves said:

I would every Frey has got to go. 

Lady Catelyn, is that you?

[Protagoras]

4 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Seriously it's fictional characters. 

In that case I think it should be allowed to wish rape (with descriptions) on characters you don´t like, because "Hey, its fictional".

That would be seen by the stupid forum rules (Which hypocrite put that standard up - seriously?) as insensitive, but somehow genocide gets a pass. .

[Clegane'sPup]

2 hours ago, dariopatke said:

Lady Catelyn, is that you?

 No, I think I am professor of philosophy or psychology with no sense of humor and no understanding of why people read fiction.

[Clegane'sPup]

Protagoras, would you be so kind as to explain to me why old man Walder has been set up as the troll with a toll?  I rooted for the billy goats not the troll. Maybe the troll felt unloved. Maybe the troll felt like an outcast, etc. I had no interest in the troll’s reason.

Okay, so maybe there should not be a Frey genocide as you named it. Morally & ethically wrong.  In this book Lannister, Frey and Bolton connived to murder at a celebration. Surely it can be said that those three families did what they needed to do in order to protect themselves.

Personally I think the Lannister’s, the Frey’s and the Bolton’s need to be held accountable for their underhanded dealings. Why do I think that? Because, in this book it is my preference. It has nothing to do with my real world moral or ethical outlook.

The OP was interesting.

 

 

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I'd love to discuss House Frey some though, so if anyone has any theories or ideas of what could happen to them in the next two books, please share!

Some questions worth considering....

Is Black Walder a kinslayer?

How much of the current 'character' and reputation of House Frey is down to Walder himself?

How was House Frey viewed pre-Walder?

Does Walder keep the family unified? Would any other Lord fail to do so?

What would House Frey look like post-Walder?

Will Lord Walder kick the bucket soon?

What's going to happen with House Frey next?

 

 

[Ser Something]

Good point about Tom of Sevenstreams. But I wasn't suggesting Black Walder did have a hand in Ryman's death, it was obviously the Brotherhood. I doubt Black Walder mourned his father much though.

The idea of the whole family being wiped out by wolves or Crannogmen is interesting, but I think unlikely. I mean it's not as if every last Frey is gonna be found at the Twins at the same time. Surely they are quite spread out across the realm. Though as one of you did just point out, when Winter comes they might all be huddling together for warmth at the Twins, which would be the perfect time for anyone planning a massacre!

Nevertheless, I think them destroying themselves through infighting would be much more interesting.

Not to say lots of them couldn't be picked off by outlaws, wolves and crannogmen along the way!

Hmm, what if the crannogmen had a hand in the family breakdown though? Perhaps Walder senior falls to a poisoned arrow, after which the crannogmen can just step back and watch it all happen....

True that it's probably unlikely many Freys will return from the north. Though I'm enjoying picturing a battered, frostbitten host limping south, getting harrassed by crannogmen as they pass through the neck, and coming home to find their family in pieces....

I'm also not a big fan of the idea that every Frey is a "bad guy". Perwyn, Olyvar and Roslin have been mentioned as the few people would like to see not get wiped out, but I still think it shouldn't be as simple as that. Some 'bad guys' must surely escaped unharmed, and some 'likeable' Freys must surely be unjustly killed as well, being punished for the sins of their family. Though it is obvious that a large number of the family (or at least the grown-up males among them) are thoroughly unpleasant, I'm sure it's more than just those three mentioned who didn't go along with the Red Wedding idea.

I've always wondered about Stevron, who seemed like a decent chap.... Would he have been in favour of it or not? As the first-born son, if he spoke up against it surely his words would carry some weight.

I'd be interested in seeing more 'problem Freys' who aren't obviously treacherous scum. Makes it all more believable and interesting.

Also true that Black Walder wouldn't actually need to kill his brother or anyone else... As soon as Edwyn inherits, the emnity and distrust between the two of them might be all it takes. I wonder who would take Black Walder's side? Does he have any friends or confidantes? Bastard Walder maybe?

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 minutes ago, Ser Something said:

Good point about Tom of Sevenstreams. But I wasn't suggesting Black Walder did have a hand in Ryman's death, it was obviously the Brotherhood. I doubt Black Walder mourned his father much though.

The idea of the whole family being wiped out by wolves or Crannogmen is interesting, but I think unlikely. I mean it's not as if every last Frey is gonna be found at the Twins at the same time. Surely they are quite spread out across the realm. Though as one of you did just point out, when Winter comes they might all be huddling together for warmth at the Twins, which would be the perfect time for anyone planning a massacre!

Nevertheless, I think them destroying themselves through infighting would be much more interesting.

Not to say lots of them couldn't be picked off by outlaws, wolves and crannogmen along the way!

Hmm, what if the crannogmen had a hand in the family breakdown though? Perhaps Walder senior falls to a poisoned arrow, after which the crannogmen can just step back and watch it all happen....

True that it's probably unlikely many Freys will return from the north. Though I'm enjoying picturing a battered, frostbitten host limping south, getting harrassed by crannogmen as they pass through the neck, and coming home to find their family in pieces....

I'm also not a big fan of the idea that every Frey is a "bad guy". Perwyn, Olyvar and Roslin have been mentioned as the few people would like to see not get wiped out, but I still think it shouldn't be as simple as that. Some 'bad guys' must surely escaped unharmed, and some 'likeable' Freys must surely be unjustly killed as well, being punished for the sins of their family. Though it is obvious that a large number of the family (or at least the grown-up males among them) are thoroughly unpleasant, I'm sure it's more than just those three mentioned who didn't go along with the Red Wedding idea.

I've always wondered about Stevron, who seemed like a decent chap.... Would he have been in favour of it or not? As the first-born son, if he spoke up against it surely his words would carry some weight.

I'd be interested in seeing more 'problem Freys' who aren't obviously treacherous scum. Makes it all more believable and interesting.

Also true that Black Walder wouldn't actually need to kill his brother or anyone else... As soon as Edwyn inherits, the emnity and distrust between the two of them might be all it takes. I wonder who would take Black Walder's side? Does he have any friends or confidantes? Bastard Walder maybe?

 

I don't believe every last Frey will be wiped out. But the Twins will, and I think Rosslyn (and Edmure) will die too, for plot reasons, to open Riverrun up to a Stark heir.

But the Freys as a House will end. The plenty Frey descendants that remain, will become like those members of the Golden Company or Windblown etc. who reminisce over lost lands and titles. But they will not rule the Twins anymore. That part of their history will end.