True History of Dawn Age; How It Relates to Present War and Faceless Men (Spoilers Entire Series)

[drayrock]

A lot of these theories come from other places and are a summation of other peoples work, my only real addition (which has probably already been mentioned I'm sure) is how Sam will affect the present.

The Others were involved in building the wall (it's made of ice idk why we all just take as fact that man built it when we know there is a race of ice ppl who can do crazy magic credit alt shift or whoever came up with this first) and it's purpose was not to keep the others out, but to solidify a peace and a territory allotment after a long war between the others and man/children of the forest, after the children lost control of the others. Part of this peace was some level of tribute to the others by man in the form of children, this is where the others take your baby legends come from. It makes sense that the others built the wall bc if man built it why the fuck would there be a secret door leading through it (i.e. The one Sam goes through)... If they're trying to keep the others out probably not best to make a door through or make the wall out of ice in the first place.

ln this version of history, as we learned the Children did create the Others. My thought process is that they did solely for the purpose of gaining more numbers to battle them and controlling man in order to use its physical strength and use of steal weapons more effectively. However, they used a greenser to do it (either because it was necessary for the magic to work or by happenstance) which had the unintended consequence of converting the greensers warging of life...to death. This eventually lead to a war between the others and the children/man once the others got out of control. The last hero we heard about was a more of a diplomat than a traditional hero. Using fire he fought back with the children but eventually brokered a peace and created the watch. Built the wall. The wall has both the children's magic and ice other magic which explains why up to this point the others haven't been able to fuck with it. It also explaisn things like the Cold-Hands which are a relic of this pact and seem to have both sides of magic (the children's humanity bu the white's undeadness)  So in this version of history, Danny is the unstable force of fire (not the hero), the others are the unstable force of ice, Jon is the symbolic marriage between Ice and fire and he will have to eventually (after lots of fighting and cgi) broker a new peace by calming and satiating both unstable forces. He's been born and bred to do this...he's in touch with both nobility and the common people as a bastard, he's done it with the wildlings. And he's Targ and stark. There's a duality to him that Danny does not have. How this actually comes to pass imo is that Sam discovers all the true history of the wall and the pact that was made. Most likely through. Some combination of studying at the citadel and hypothesizing and goes back to Jon to tell him of his discovery. They're will be some bittersweet moment where Jon will have to sacrifice himself or some version of himself to solidify the peace (i.e. Nights King story). Meanwhile, Bran is the one who through both the magic of the children and the others rebuilds the wall (it has fallen in the great battle) via a combination of both race's magic such that neither has complete control of it. You could take it a step further considering his whole time shindig that not only did he remake it this time...but he is the ACTUAL bran the builder from legend and he made it the first time as well via warging etc. This is specualtion, obviously it won't be a complete repeat of history becuase its a new story or maybe it would...but there are other things involved that could change the outcome like FacelessMen.

My questions for you: 
1. What do you think of this version of history?
2. The question becomes why has this peace been broken? Could be just a history repeats itself kinda thing whereby everyone forgot.
3. Also what is the transgression that has either emporwered or angered the others?
4. How do the faceless men fit in? We can assume they have a dragon egg and they are learning about dragons at the Citadel.
5. Do they like Danny or not? Do they like the Others?

An argument can be made either way...Danny is a targ with the blood of old valyria who actually enslaved the ancestors of the facelessmen with their dragons...but shes also freeing slaves...

The others on other hand seem to be the essence of deathl....except they also bring ppl back from the dead and it could be considered stealing from the many faced God.

[House Cambodia]

Your ideas are similar to the ones I posited in this thread, with other posters commenting and adding their thoughts:

 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/139666-the-endgame-a-thought/

 

Spoiler

I don't think our wild speculations can be considered "spoilers".

[Dorian Martell]

1 hour ago, drayrock said:

A lot of these theories come from other places and are a summation of other peoples work, my only real addition (which has probably already been mentioned I'm sure) is how Sam will affect the present.

The Others were involved in building the wall (it's made of ice idk why we all just take as fact that man built it when we know there is a race of ice ppl who can do crazy magic credit alt shift or whoever came up with this first) and it's purpose was not to keep the others out, but to solidify a peace and a territory allotment after a long war between the others and man/children of the forest, after the children lost control of the others. Part of this peace was some level of tribute to the others by man in the form of children, this is where the others take your baby legends come from. It makes sense that the others built the wall bc if man built it why the fuck would there be a secret door leading through it (i.e. The one Sam goes through)... If they're trying to keep the others out probably not best to make a door through or make the wall out of ice in the first place.

ln this version of history, as we learned the Children did create the Others. My thought process is that they did solely for the purpose of gaining more numbers to battle them and controlling man in order to use its physical strength and use of steal weapons more effectively. However, they used a greenser to do it (either because it was necessary for the magic to work or by happenstance) which had the unintended consequence of converting the greensers warging of life...to death. This eventually lead to a war between the others and the children/man once the others got out of control. The last hero we heard about was a more of a diplomat than a traditional hero. Using fire he fought back with the children but eventually brokered a peace and created the watch. Built the wall. The wall has both the children's magic and ice other magic which explains why up to this point the others haven't been able to fuck with it. It also explaisn things like the Cold-Hands which are a relic of this pact and seem to have both sides of magic (the children's humanity bu the white's undeadness)  So in this version of history, Danny is the unstable force of fire (not the hero), the others are the unstable force of ice, Jon is the symbolic marriage between Ice and fire and he will have to eventually (after lots of fighting and cgi) broker a new peace by calming and satiating both unstable forces. He's been born and bred to do this...he's in touch with both nobility and the common people as a bastard, he's done it with the wildlings. And he's Targ and stark. There's a duality to him that Danny does not have. How this actually comes to pass imo is that Sam discovers all the true history of the wall and the pact that was made. Most likely through. Some combination of studying at the citadel and hypothesizing and goes back to Jon to tell him of his discovery. They're will be some bittersweet moment where Jon will have to sacrifice himself or some version of himself to solidify the peace (i.e. Nights King story). Meanwhile, Bran is the one who through both the magic of the children and the others rebuilds the wall (it has fallen in the great battle) via a combination of both race's magic such that neither has complete control of it. You could take it a step further considering his whole time shindig that not only did he remake it this time...but he is the ACTUAL bran the builder from legend and he made it the first time as well via warging etc. This is specualtion, obviously it won't be a complete repeat of history becuase its a new story or maybe it would...but there are other things involved that could change the outcome like FacelessMen.

My questions for you: 
1. What do you think of this version of history?
2. The question becomes why has this peace been broken? Could be just a history repeats itself kinda thing whereby everyone forgot.
3. Also what is the transgression that has either emporwered or angered the others?
4. How do the faceless men fit in? We can assume they have a dragon egg and they are learning about dragons at the Citadel.
5. Do they like Danny or not? Do they like the Others?

An argument can be made either way...Danny is a targ with the blood of old valyria who actually enslaved the ancestors of the facelessmen with their dragons...but shes also freeing slaves...

The others on other hand seem to be the essence of deathl....except they also bring ppl back from the dead and it could be considered stealing from the many faced God.

1: Speculation based on speculation based on speculation is never accurate, but the story isn't finished yet so feel free to hope

2: There was never a "peace."  There was an attack, there was a quest, there was an alliance and  there was a defeat, Now, the vanquished have returned, and the only thing stopping a massive invasion is a wall made out of ice and warded with magic from the age of heroes. 

3: They could be the ancient enemy of the CTOF. An enemy that could be defeated with what they possessed in terms of magic and technology. The others could have invaded numerous times over the million or so years the CTOF living in Westeros. But after the first men cut down the weirwood trees and killed large number of them, they were weakened and in no place to fight when the others came last time. Hence the Last Hero, who sought them out to learn how to fight them. 

4: The faceless men are, according to them, the cause of the doom. How they did it is unknown. That is how they fit in. They are one of the reasons why dragons are no longer here. The doom only left the Targ dragons to breed. in less than 200 years, they were extinct. that is a pretty major part of the plot. Now Dany has them, and the FM are interested in dragons once more. 
 I think we can assume they have Euron's egg. He did hire them to kill his brother and he told a story of tossing the egg into the ocean.  I think the FM not only want info on the dragons, but access to the glass candle as well.   

5: they do not know her at all and as of now she is very far away from Bravos so they probably hear stories but unless someone pays a queen's ransom to kill her, they have no reason to seek her out 

The the others being an affront to the many faced god is a very interesting idea 

[drayrock]

On 5/29/2016 at 2:46 PM, Dorian Martell said:

1: Speculation based on speculation based on speculation is never accurate, but the story isn't finished yet so feel free to hope

2: There was never a "peace."  There was an attack, there was a quest, there was an alliance and  there was a defeat, Now, the vanquished have returned, and the only thing stopping a massive invasion is a wall made out of ice and warded with magic from the age of heroes. 

3: They could be the ancient enemy of the CTOF. An enemy that could be defeated with what they possessed in terms of magic and technology. The others could have invaded numerous times over the million or so years the CTOF living in Westeros. But after the first men cut down the weirwood trees and killed large number of them, they were weakened and in no place to fight when the others came last time. Hence the Last Hero, who sought them out to learn how to fight them. 

4: The faceless men are, according to them, the cause of the doom. How they did it is unknown. That is how they fit in. They are one of the reasons why dragons are no longer here. The doom only left the Targ dragons to breed. in less than 200 years, they were extinct. that is a pretty major part of the plot. Now Dany has them, and the FM are interested in dragons once more. 
 I think we can assume they have Euron's egg. He did hire them to kill his brother and he told a story of tossing the egg into the ocean.  I think the FM not only want info on the dragons, but access to the glass candle as well.   

5: they do not know her at all and as of now she is very far away from Bravos so they probably hear stories but unless someone pays a queen's ransom to kill her, they have no reason to seek her out 

The the others being an affront to the many faced god is a very interesting idea 

1. Obviously not 100% accurate, but I just mean the general Idea that man didn't build the wall, and that it the others weren't defeated, just put at bay with some kind fo truce. 

2. That's a pretty definitive with very little evidence. If anythign the evidence indicates there was a peace. There definitely was between the others and man south of the wall, and we are lead ot believe that whitewalker emergence is recent as it just started cropping up close to the wall and their increase in activity is what supposebly unites the wildlings under Mance...so if they weren't warring before that, i think it's fair to call it a peace. 

3. I like the idea that the last hero could have sought them out for aid to bring the children out of hiding etc. basically they had admitted a sort of defeat and were re-engaged by man. But I think the timelines are a little more tight, i.e.within the same or two generations of the whitewalkers being created, they got out of hand. 

4. We agree they caused the doop, but the quesiton is how do they fit within the present, not the past. Considering their ideals, they could side with etheir ice or fire per say. I agree they are part of the elmination of dragons (a major part considering they killed almsot all of them in the doom). Which side will they pick...anyone have any evidence beyond speculation? What do they intend to do with the egg? Bring the wall down? which would indicate sideing with the others...Just curious what we can see with some good brainstorming!

Good point with the glass candle. I dig that idea. This is the area george has a lot of fleshing out to do. 

5....I disagree. They know who danny is if they're aware of dragons which we know they are. I'm curious which holds more credance with them...the negative of having dragons around and the sheer power this provides their owner (ie dragon lords of old valyria) or the positive that Danny is actually using them to free slaves which is aligns with their ideals and their orgin story.  

[Dorian Martell]

9 hours ago, drayrock said:

1. Obviously not 100% accurate, but I just mean the general Idea that man didn't build the wall, and that it the others weren't defeated, just put at bay with some kind fo truce. 

2. That's a pretty definitive with very little evidence. If anythign the evidence indicates there was a peace. There definitely was between the others and man south of the wall, and we are lead ot believe that whitewalker emergence is recent as it just started cropping up close to the wall and their increase in activity is what supposebly unites the wildlings under Mance...so if they weren't warring before that, i think it's fair to call it a peace. 

3. I like the idea that the last hero could have sought them out for aid to bring the children out of hiding etc. basically they had admitted a sort of defeat and were re-engaged by man. But I think the timelines are a little more tight, i.e.within the same or two generations of the whitewalkers being created, they got out of hand. 

4. We agree they caused the doop, but the quesiton is how do they fit within the present, not the past. Considering their ideals, they could side with etheir ice or fire per say. I agree they are part of the elmination of dragons (a major part considering they killed almsot all of them in the doom). Which side will they pick...anyone have any evidence beyond speculation? What do they intend to do with the egg? Bring the wall down? which would indicate sideing with the others...Just curious what we can see with some good brainstorming!

Good point with the glass candle. I dig that idea. This is the area george has a lot of fleshing out to do. 

5....I disagree. They know who danny is if they're aware of dragons which we know they are. I'm curious which holds more credance with them...the negative of having dragons around and the sheer power this provides their owner (ie dragon lords of old valyria) or the positive that Danny is actually using them to free slaves which is aligns with their ideals and their orgin story.  

1: Why is it so hard to imagine that a wall made of magic ice in the far north of a continent where it snows in summer would be built to keep out other ice creatures? I mean, would a 700 fot tall 300 mile long wall of fire be more agreeable? It is cold up north, with many a frozen lake to quarry. I ask this every time this comes up. Why would the others build a wall that stops them but not people? 
2: There is plenty of evidence. The biggest being that humanity remembers the peace and pact with the CTOF.  the first men adopted their gods and gained their powers. If we made peace and had a pact with the ice demons, why is there no memory of that. And a conspiracy is not an answer. It makes no sense. Peace is celebrated, and not by building a huge barrier to keep things separate but only affecting one group. 
There was no peace. If there was, it would be mentioned in the books. Inactivity is not peace either. I think you might be thinking of an armistice. In peace, walls come down. In an armistice, defenses stay up. Still, there is no mention of an armistice either so that is probably null as well.
3: Again, I don't see where you get 2 generation. everything in the books says it was thousands of years between the pact and the long night. Speculation based on baseless speculation is never accurate. Maybe if you could explain how you got to the 2 generations it would help me see it 
4:I have no idea what they want to do with the egg. I don't see how an egg would bring the wall down. maybe raise a dragon to melt a hole in it? dragon fire can melt stone. Magic ice too? I suppose they could hear stories of the people the slavers brought to Bravos from hardhome so they may have an inkling of them. 
5: They know who she is, but she is far away, and unless someone wants to kill her, there is no reason for them to deal with her unless she makes it to Bravos 

[drayrock]

18 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

1: Why is it so hard to imagine that a wall made of magic ice in the far north of a continent where it snows in summer would be built to keep out other ice creatures? I mean, would a 700 fot tall 300 mile long wall of fire be more agreeable? It is cold up north, with many a frozen lake to quarry. I ask this every time this comes up. Why would the others build a wall that stops them but not people? 
2: There is plenty of evidence. The biggest being that humanity remembers the peace and pact with the CTOF.  the first men adopted their gods and gained their powers. If we made peace and had a pact with the ice demons, why is there no memory of that. And a conspiracy is not an answer. It makes no sense. Peace is celebrated, and not by building a huge barrier to keep things separate but only affecting one group. 
There was no peace. If there was, it would be mentioned in the books. Inactivity is not peace either. I think you might be thinking of an armistice. In peace, walls come down. In an armistice, defenses stay up. Still, there is no mention of an armistice either so that is probably null as well.
3: Again, I don't see where you get 2 generation. everything in the books says it was thousands of years between the pact and the long night. Speculation based on baseless speculation is never accurate. Maybe if you could explain how you got to the 2 generations it would help me see it 
4:I have no idea what they want to do with the egg. I don't see how an egg would bring the wall down. maybe raise a dragon to melt a hole in it? dragon fire can melt stone. Magic ice too? I suppose they could hear stories of the people the slavers brought to Bravos from hardhome so they may have an inkling of them. 
5: They know who she is, but she is far away, and unless someone wants to kill her, there is no reason for them to deal with her unless she makes it to Bravos 

1. It's not hard to imagine that they decided to make it out of ice considering there is plenty of it.... if we're assuming it can be done...it's the context that makes it questionable. You're fighting against a race that brings the cold wherever they go, has ice swords, ice armor, speak in a tongue that sounds like ice breaking, and pretty much look like ice gods/demons.....if you chose to make it out of ice you are throwing common sense to the wind unless they all knew of something we don't know that would limit the others from having a leg up in ice manipulation for wall building/breaking. My point is, from what we know of the others, common sense would indicate a wall of ice would be less of an obstacle for them then a normal wall consdiering the power they seem to hold over it in every other area thing involving ice beyond the wall. But again, I'm of the idea that it is both the children and the walkers magic which is why neither has control. Somewhat like cold hands or that certian someone else in the show, both magic is used and thus neither side has complete control over the entity; but the others were involved in making it.

2. Evidence that humanity supposebly remembers "The Pact", which on its own is hazy in modern day Westeros history, does not directly imply that other agreements could be forgotten, particularly if the war was as far reaching as we are told (think dark ages). Or considering that even the details of the pact are hazy, we could be missing something...as you said its thousands of years ago. 

I see your point. My answer would be, who knows if the Others willingly made it. Perhaps they were backed into a corner, perha[s they were used to make it, perhaps by that point they had no choice but maintained somee degree of leverage so weren't completely killed off. My point is it seems like they were invovled more than just being beaten and boxed into the north. IMO i think they helped make it to some degree. the tributes others in the form of babeis just make so much sense when you consider the doors in the wall etc. 

3. Peace, armistice tomatoe tomato. Perhaps Armistice is the right word. I don't remember the books giving us any indication of a firm timeline with the long night or the pact. It's very he said she said, and that's my point, perhaps the pact and the long night were more correlated and closer to each other than we previously thought or not maybe it was thousands of years...doesn't align if we consider events in the show unless the other stook a damn long time to reproduce. If you just take what the book has shown us, its two different legendary stories. We don't have timelines and we assume they're separate because we've hear them separately. Doesn't mean they couldn't be intertwined.

4. It seems to me there is power in dragon eggs, even if they don't get hatched. Look at Summerhall, they were trying to hatch one and something went wrong in the form of a firey disaster. This to me, hints that the doom may have involved some old valyrian dragon matgic (Too far to say actual eggs but one could surmise). It's fairly obvious that they can be used for destructive means beyond just creating dragons. almost like a bomb.

5. I disagree here. It's fairly obvious to me that the faceless man do have an agenda beyond making money killing ppl. Whether these motivations are political or are rooted in some mission statement or the group's orgins or Bravos's orgins, this isn't just an organization motivated purely by making a profit. So to say they don't care about someone raising a huge army that is from the blood of old valyria (their old masters) and has the first dragon seen in centuries (the creatures their old masters used to maintain power over them as slaves) is a gross simplification of the FM as an organization and IMO their place in the story. Particularly when you consider how much knowledge of the world they have...they can be a fly on the wall wherever they are and no one knows they arel istening...think about the other half of Arya's training beyond killing...it's giving knowledge...what do you imagine a full FM woudl do beyond just killing...probably give even deeper reports on the happenings of the world. Consider Jaquen being at the citadel. If all his only goal was to kill Pate, why is he still there? Why is it implied he hopes to steal the dragon book? I guess you could argue just to blend in and kill someone higher but I don't buy it. 

So yeah I think they know about Danny, and have an opionion of her, and are actively using their influence to shape some kind of outcome...just not sure what that outcome is. Everyone knows about Danny...it's only kingslanding who don't seem to give a pigeon pie. And maybe the wall who are so far it makes sens they'd be out of the loop. One of the most knowledgeable organizations in the world is definitely aware and paying attention.

I personally think they could have some connection to the Iron Bank, as the two groups work in conjuntion to shape world events and maintain influecne over the world in each of their own ways. 

[Dorian Martell]

On 6/2/2016 at 2:43 AM, drayrock said:

1. It's not hard to imagine that they decided to make it out of ice considering there is plenty of it.... if we're assuming it can be done...it's the context that makes it questionable. You're fighting against a race that brings the cold wherever they go, has ice swords, ice armor, speak in a tongue that sounds like ice breaking, and pretty much look like ice gods/demons.....if you chose to make it out of ice you are throwing common sense to the wind unless they all knew of something we don't know that would limit the others from having a leg up in ice manipulation for wall building/breaking. My point is, from what we know of the others, common sense would indicate a wall of ice would be less of an obstacle for them then a normal wall consdiering the power they seem to hold over it in every other area thing involving ice beyond the wall. But again, I'm of the idea that it is both the children and the walkers magic which is why neither has control. Somewhat like cold hands or that certian someone else in the show, both magic is used and thus neither side has complete control over the entity; but the others were involved in making it.

2. Evidence that humanity supposebly remembers "The Pact", which on its own is hazy in modern day Westeros history, does not directly imply that other agreements could be forgotten, particularly if the war was as far reaching as we are told (think dark ages). Or considering that even the details of the pact are hazy, we could be missing something...as you said its thousands of years ago. 

I see your point. My answer would be, who knows if the Others willingly made it. Perhaps they were backed into a corner, perha[s they were used to make it, perhaps by that point they had no choice but maintained somee degree of leverage so weren't completely killed off. My point is it seems like they were invovled more than just being beaten and boxed into the north. IMO i think they helped make it to some degree. the tributes others in the form of babeis just make so much sense when you consider the doors in the wall etc. 

3. Peace, armistice tomatoe tomato. Perhaps Armistice is the right word. I don't remember the books giving us any indication of a firm timeline with the long night or the pact. It's very he said she said, and that's my point, perhaps the pact and the long night were more correlated and closer to each other than we previously thought or not maybe it was thousands of years...doesn't align if we consider events in the show unless the other stook a damn long time to reproduce. If you just take what the book has shown us, its two different legendary stories. We don't have timelines and we assume they're separate because we've hear them separately. Doesn't mean they couldn't be intertwined.

4. It seems to me there is power in dragon eggs, even if they don't get hatched. Look at Summerhall, they were trying to hatch one and something went wrong in the form of a firey disaster. This to me, hints that the doom may have involved some old valyrian dragon matgic (Too far to say actual eggs but one could surmise). It's fairly obvious that they can be used for destructive means beyond just creating dragons. almost like a bomb.

5. I disagree here. It's fairly obvious to me that the faceless man do have an agenda beyond making money killing ppl. Whether these motivations are political or are rooted in some mission statement or the group's orgins or Bravos's orgins, this isn't just an organization motivated purely by making a profit. So to say they don't care about someone raising a huge army that is from the blood of old valyria (their old masters) and has the first dragon seen in centuries (the creatures their old masters used to maintain power over them as slaves) is a gross simplification of the FM as an organization and IMO their place in the story. Particularly when you consider how much knowledge of the world they have...they can be a fly on the wall wherever they are and no one knows they arel istening...think about the other half of Arya's training beyond killing...it's giving knowledge...what do you imagine a full FM woudl do beyond just killing...probably give even deeper reports on the happenings of the world. Consider Jaquen being at the citadel. If all his only goal was to kill Pate, why is he still there? Why is it implied he hopes to steal the dragon book? I guess you could argue just to blend in and kill someone higher but I don't buy it. 

So yeah I think they know about Danny, and have an opionion of her, and are actively using their influence to shape some kind of outcome...just not sure what that outcome is. Everyone knows about Danny...it's only kingslanding who don't seem to give a pigeon pie. And maybe the wall who are so far it makes sens they'd be out of the loop. One of the most knowledgeable organizations in the world is definitely aware and paying attention.

I personally think they could have some connection to the Iron Bank, as the two groups work in conjuntion to shape world events and maintain influecne over the world in each of their own ways. 

1: You are right. Context is everything, And in a place in the north of a continent, where it is known to snow in the middle of summer, why not build a wall out of a material that was easy to build up over time with pebbles and water?
the only thing we know of the others is that they raise the dead, they bring extreme cold and their swords are awesome. We know more about their minions, and wights cannot enter the CTOF cave, much like how mel had to hatch her shadow baby inside Storms End  because both places are warded. No wight has ever crossed the wall under their own power. They were dragged through by the watchmen. Common sense would dictate that a wall that humans can move over and under with relative ease yet  wights cannot would mean the wall is warded by the same old magic that protects the CTOF cave and Sorms End. Why then would the others build a wall that does not stop people but only stops themselves? common sense dictated that they did not. 
2: It makes no sense that humanity would remember an older war, the peace that was made and the people they made it with and then all but forget a later war, where we remember the enemy, seeking out the older ally, fighting and then making peace with the new enemy and then forgetting that they built the largest single structure on the planet. That makes zero sense to me. I am not saying there was no contact between the others and humanity, but in my next reply I will go into why it is highly unlikely 
3: Timelines mean nothing for the sake of this argument. With the CTOF we have a real peace, and that peace was celebrated. The isle of faces had all the trees carved, with faces. The order of the green men was created to watch over it. Humanity took the old gods as their own and the pact became part of the oral tradition of the world. there were no lasting monuments to the war, only to the peace.
for an armistice, like in Korea, there was never a peace. the fear of renewed war is ever present. There is a DMZ separating the two sides (like a metaphorical wall) and there are people ready to take up combat if the enemy returns (like the night's watch.)  If there as a peace with the others, why are there no monuments to that peace? why is there only a monument to a possible new war? It is because they were defeated, just like the stories say. and now they have returned when humanity has all but forgotten who the ancient enemy is. 
4: I do not think there is innate power in a dragon egg, other than it's monetary value. Personally, I think summerhall was a wildfire accident. and a dragon did hatch, and that was Rhaegar. the last dragon. 
5: Yes, the FM do have an agenda, but it does not seem to involve politics outside of Bravos unless it is a contract kill. I don't think they have an active interest in a dragon queen who smashed Slavers bay. I am sure they are watching her, but she is a long way from them.  Since the FM left the Targs alone on Westeros, I don't see why they would somehow interfere with Dany. As for Jaqen, while there is a book on dragons at the citadel, what we see is a glass candle, and it has started burning again. the ability to see across continents and invade people's dreams seems like a far more valuable tool than a book. But maybe he wants both. 
And yes, they are connected to the IB. everyone in Bravos knows their coins. and the IB is much like the FM. Very powerful, but not directly in power. Rulers and governments will come and go, but he Bank and the faceless men stay and grow stronger

[drayrock]

On 6/3/2016 at 3:17 AM, Dorian Martell said:

1: You are right. Context is everything, And in a place in the north of a continent, where it is known to snow in the middle of summer, why not build a wall out of a material that was easy to build up over time with pebbles and water?
the only thing we know of the others is that they raise the dead, they bring extreme cold and their swords are awesome. We know more about their minions, and wights cannot enter the CTOF cave, much like how mel had to hatch her shadow baby inside Storms End  because both places are warded. No wight has ever crossed the wall under their own power. They were dragged through by the watchmen. Common sense would dictate that a wall that humans can move over and under with relative ease yet  wights cannot would mean the wall is warded by the same old magic that protects the CTOF cave and Sorms End. Why then would the others build a wall that does not stop people but only stops themselves? common sense dictated that they did not. 
2: It makes no sense that humanity would remember an older war, the peace that was made and the people they made it with and then all but forget a later war, where we remember the enemy, seeking out the older ally, fighting and then making peace with the new enemy and then forgetting that they built the largest single structure on the planet. That makes zero sense to me. I am not saying there was no contact between the others and humanity, but in my next reply I will go into why it is highly unlikely 
3: Timelines mean nothing for the sake of this argument. With the CTOF we have a real peace, and that peace was celebrated. The isle of faces had all the trees carved, with faces. The order of the green men was created to watch over it. Humanity took the old gods as their own and the pact became part of the oral tradition of the world. there were no lasting monuments to the war, only to the peace.
for an armistice, like in Korea, there was never a peace. the fear of renewed war is ever present. There is a DMZ separating the two sides (like a metaphorical wall) and there are people ready to take up combat if the enemy returns (like the night's watch.)  If there as a peace with the others, why are there no monuments to that peace? why is there only a monument to a possible new war? It is because they were defeated, just like the stories say. and now they have returned when humanity has all but forgotten who the ancient enemy is. 
4: I do not think there is innate power in a dragon egg, other than it's monetary value. Personally, I think summerhall was a wildfire accident. and a dragon did hatch, and that was Rhaegar. the last dragon. 
5: Yes, the FM do have an agenda, but it does not seem to involve politics outside of Bravos unless it is a contract kill. I don't think they have an active interest in a dragon queen who smashed Slavers bay. I am sure they are watching her, but she is a long way from them.  Since the FM left the Targs alone on Westeros, I don't see why they would somehow interfere with Dany. As for Jaqen, while there is a book on dragons at the citadel, what we see is a glass candle, and it has started burning again. the ability to see across continents and invade people's dreams seems like a far more valuable tool than a book. But maybe he wants both. 
And yes, they are connected to the IB. everyone in Bravos knows their coins. and the IB is much like the FM. Very powerful, but not directly in power. Rulers and governments will come and go, but he Bank and the faceless men stay and grow stronger

1. Unless they were forced to help and participate under diress. They were losing and it saved their race. Maybe we're running in circles here, my point is that it was some sort of compromise. And in a compromise, both sides do not get what they want completely. I doubt the realms of men wanted to contribute babies for sacrifice either in this version of history. 

You say we only know they have bad ass swords and bring the cold. I disagree. We know they can manipulate ice in a way to make seemingly unstoppable weapons. We know part of their procreation process requires babies (why it requires babies to make a new other is up for debate, I believe this is because this is a completely innocent sacrifice, pure like unicorns in harry potter if you will). That knowledge adds credence to the view that there was a compromise in my opinion. The others agreed to help build the wall and with a combination of their, it was built, but the children's magic allowed as well made it so they could not pass as you've mentioned with other castles. 

I'm not saying they did it themselves, I'm saying they were somehow forced into it and it is a combination of both magics. I'd agree that it extends to the others, they can't get throug.h...until somthing allows them to (that's another debate). We haven't see the children be able to manipulate ice in any capacity. We've seen the others can, that the others have, and therefore all your previous examples could have just been the children. My point is that the wall is different. It required both. Doesnt it seem a little unrealistic for man and giants to build somehting 1/3 the height of any man made pyramaid and 100x as long? I realize this is fantasy, but george grounds his fantasy in reality and I believe as readers, we are meant to question if that feat is possible. We're really never given a solid answer as to how it was done, other than the giants helped, which is flimsy at best imo. I believe this is because there is more to it, as is usually the case in asoif, when something is taken as fact that doesn't really make contexual since or have proper motivation, and there is little evidence, we are meant to question.  (ie. Raegahr raped and killed lyanna).

 

2. We're arguing speculation here. My point is that the details are loose and if the translation of things like dragon having no gender  can be forgotten, which is only a few hundred years old, it make sense that the details of two stories could be scued...ie to seemingly separate events could have been a little more nuanced and intertwined then we think. (just look at how twerked the fantasy of robert's rebellion is vs. the reality). 

 

3. I can agree with you, let's not call it a peace. Let's call it an armistice. And let's call the wall the DMZ. That's definitely more in line with what I"m imagining then a peace. It still stands they could have been defeated to a point and rather than risk complete annilhation, they agreed to compromise and build the wall. THat would imply they had some trump card left to play that humanity still feared, despite the others being on the defensive. 

4. Interesting thought process, but i mean i don't see a ton of evidence for that. Could be, but I disagree, I htink there is enough evidence of dragon eggs having inate power to warrent speculation, but either way i disagree that they are just fiscally valueable. 

5. I guess we just disagree on them having such a limited scope. It seems to me they've had a hand in lots of major events in history, particularly related to the dragons. One could say after the doom they were too busy to worry about the targs as they were founding their new home and probably didn't even know they had survived for anyway.

Now that dragons are back, i could seem them taking an active interest. 

[Dorian Martell]

13 hours ago, drayrock said:

1. Unless they were forced to help and participate under diress. They were losing and it saved their race. Maybe we're running in circles here, my point is that it was some sort of compromise. And in a compromise, both sides do not get what they want completely. I doubt the realms of men wanted to contribute babies for sacrifice either in this version of history. 

You say we only know they have bad ass swords and bring the cold. I disagree. We know they can manipulate ice in a way to make seemingly unstoppable weapons. We know part of their procreation process requires babies (why it requires babies to make a new other is up for debate, I believe this is because this is a completely innocent sacrifice, pure like unicorns in harry potter if you will). That knowledge adds credence to the view that there was a compromise in my opinion. The others agreed to help build the wall and with a combination of their, it was built, but the children's magic allowed as well made it so they could not pass as you've mentioned with other castles. 

I'm not saying they did it themselves, I'm saying they were somehow forced into it and it is a combination of both magics. I'd agree that it extends to the others, they can't get throug.h...until somthing allows them to (that's another debate). We haven't see the children be able to manipulate ice in any capacity. We've seen the others can, that the others have, and therefore all your previous examples could have just been the children. My point is that the wall is different. It required both. Doesnt it seem a little unrealistic for man and giants to build somehting 1/3 the height of any man made pyramaid and 100x as long? I realize this is fantasy, but george grounds his fantasy in reality and I believe as readers, we are meant to question if that feat is possible. We're really never given a solid answer as to how it was done, other than the giants helped, which is flimsy at best imo. I believe this is because there is more to it, as is usually the case in asoif, when something is taken as fact that doesn't really make contexual since or have proper motivation, and there is little evidence, we are meant to question.  (ie. Raegahr raped and killed lyanna).

 

2. We're arguing speculation here. My point is that the details are loose and if the translation of things like dragon having no gender  can be forgotten, which is only a few hundred years old, it make sense that the details of two stories could be scued...ie to seemingly separate events could have been a little more nuanced and intertwined then we think. (just look at how twerked the fantasy of robert's rebellion is vs. the reality). 

 

3. I can agree with you, let's not call it a peace. Let's call it an armistice. And let's call the wall the DMZ. That's definitely more in line with what I"m imagining then a peace. It still stands they could have been defeated to a point and rather than risk complete annilhation, they agreed to compromise and build the wall. THat would imply they had some trump card left to play that humanity still feared, despite the others being on the defensive. 

4. Interesting thought process, but i mean i don't see a ton of evidence for that. Could be, but I disagree, I htink there is enough evidence of dragon eggs having inate power to warrent speculation, but either way i disagree that they are just fiscally valueable. 

5. I guess we just disagree on them having such a limited scope. It seems to me they've had a hand in lots of major events in history, particularly related to the dragons. One could say after the doom they were too busy to worry about the targs as they were founding their new home and probably didn't even know they had survived for anyway.

Now that dragons are back, i could seem them taking an active interest. 

1: I can see your point. I disagree but it makes more sense now than how it is usually put. My next question is why would the others let humans live in the far north next to the lands of always winter for 8000 years?
2: Again, I disagree but I see your point 
3: This makes sense. They are back after all.
4: I guess I don't see any evidence for them being magical other than being a dragon's egg. Targs and others have tried for over a century to hatch them to no avail. I think it has something to do with magic returning to the world in general that allowed Dany to hatch them. Maybe the FM want to hatch one?
5: According to the world book,  The freehold knew of Bravos for a century before the doom. there were diplomatic overtures and attempts at reparations with the families who's slaves were lost. Their primary goal is to spread the gift. Politics do not seem to be their main interest. If it was they would just take the face of any ruler and rule in their stead  

[DamonDanceForMe]

On 5/29/2016 at 0:46 AM, Dorian Martell said:

: There was never a "peace."  

This seems right to me. The wall is the peace right? I mean if there was a real peace that would mean that if some NW ranger was taking a walk north of the wall he could at least be reasonably certain that unless he did something to provoke them they wouldn't zombiefy them. I mean you can say there is a you stay on your side and we stay on our side peace but something like that seems unlikely to have the caveat "or else we will burn you to death or turn you to an ice zombie" If you think of two kingdoms that have a super tenous peace to say the least and are bordering on open hostility more likely you see the lannisters and the martells. However, I think that if there was a tourney either at Casterly Rock and Sunspear, Tywin or Doran would be able to go to the other kingdom with the reasonable expection not to get killed in cold blood. I mean, it might happen, but it is not such a great looming threat. This would be more like if the umbers invited walder frey to a wedding..ya know.

[DamonDanceForMe]

On 6/1/2016 at 10:57 AM, Dorian Martell said:

1: Why is it so hard to imagine that a wall made of magic ice in the far north of a continent where it snows in summer would be built to keep out other ice creatures? I mean, would a 700 fot tall 300 mile long wall of fire be more agreeable? It is cold up north, with many a frozen lake to quarry. I ask this every time this comes up. Why would the others build a wall that stops them but not people? 

You are, of course, right. The original plans that Bran the Builder had was for a 700 foot tall and 300 mile long wall of fire but it was seen as too costly to maintain and tacky or gauche by the more subdued northern families. Why at one meeting when Bran was presenting his original plans for the wall of fire an Umber lord was heard to shout "what are we, a bunch oh Highgarden dandies with a wall of fire" and another lord, one whose name has been lost in the annuls of time, was rumored to say "oy this is gonna be pricy"

[drayrock]

14 hours ago, DamonDanceForMe said:

You are, of course, right. The original plans that Bran the Builder had was for a 700 foot tall and 300 mile long wall of fire but it was seen as too costly to maintain and tacky or gauche by the more subdued northern families. Why at one meeting when Bran was presenting his original plans for the wall of fire an Umber lord was heard to shout "what are we, a bunch oh Highgarden dandies with a wall of fire" and another lord, one whose name has been lost in the annuls of time, was rumored to say "oy this is gonna be pricy"

stuff of legends mate