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Is Dany becoming a megalomaniac? Is Bran?


Liuko

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Although I cannot find the quote, back in Season 2 or 3 David Benioff described her as "cruel" and that was early on. I marked it in my mind because it startled me. Now I see it coming forth. It should be no surprise. Although it is much more forceful and graphic on screen, D&D have not really done anything that George didn't depict in the books. It seems blatant on screen because we do not see Dany's inner dialogue. But that is the difficulty with POV characters - they are unreliable witnesses to their own actions. 

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57 minutes ago, Not a kneeler said:

Although I cannot find the quote, back in Season 2 or 3 David Benioff described her as "cruel" and that was early on. I marked it in my mind because it startled me. Now I see it coming forth. It should be no surprise. Although it is much more forceful and graphic on screen, D&D have not really done anything that George didn't depict in the books. It seems blatant on screen because we do not see Dany's inner dialogue. But that is the difficulty with POV characters - they are unreliable witnesses to their own actions. 

Very true

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16 hours ago, SamuelVimes said:

Funny, that's exactly the point everyone made when they rebelled against her father. 

Any system where ruling is based on inheritance is only ever one or two generations away from its next bad king. Sure, it's also one or two generations away from its next good one, but it's ultimately a really crap system even if you get a couple nice rulers in there on occasion. 

And looking at the mess she's made of the cities she's conquered so far, I'd say it's pretty clear anyway that Dany is not a good ruler. Great conqueror, sure--that was Daario's point too--but not a good ruler. It's the same thing you can say about Robert Baratheon, ironically. And if we trust what she said in her speech, she also doesn't care to be a good ruler. Things going badly in Meereen? Well, screw them, I'm going to Westeros! Where I'm going to bring my pillaging army and tear their houses down! (At some point Westeros stopped being "my people" and started being "the enemy" to Dany--that's important, she's never going to rule well unless that changes.) She's completely lost sight of the "common people," the ones she asked Jorah about so long ago, and now all she wants is revenge and conquest. If I were an average Westerosi commoner, I would prefer almost anyone to what Dany seems to have in store for the place. At this point, Dany and Euron would make a terrifyingly perfect couple. She's still got a chance to change, of course, but I'm amazed at how many people are still drinking the Targaryen flav-r-aid. 

She's magic, she's a super-pale Targaryen, and she's got dragons. Still doesn't mean she's fit to rule a city, let alone a kingdom--let alone seven. 

What politically correct agenda? Freeing slaves...and then letting them get captured again when she leaves? Getting a couple Dothrakis to stop raping for a little while? Dany's agenda is conquest, and while she might be a kinder, gentler conqueror than some, a nicer tyrant is still a tyrant. 

 

Finally, come on, stop with the whole "rightful Queen" thing. The Targaryens conquered Westeros a few hundred years ago, which is not a long time in the grand scheme of things. She's rightful queen only if you believe in the right of conquest AND the inherent justice of monarchy, both of which are pretty screwed up beliefs--not to mention the fact that if you DO believe in the right of conquest, well, the Targaryens got kicked out, so they lost that right to the people who conquered them. She's as rightful a queen as Ramsay Bolton is a rightful lord--that's feudal monarchy for you. You want something different, well, then, you want a revolution, not a different king. 

Very well said.

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Aegon had no right to the seven kingdoms, and yet he conquered and united them all (save Dorne for a time).  At least Dany has more reasons for invading than he did.   As long as Dany isn't ruthless when invading, I won't see her as a villain.   Using her well earned power to take back the land where her family ruled for centuries doesn't automatically make her a villain.  Especially when she's doing so against people that tried to completely exterminate her family from existence. Besides all that, I think Dany will have her hands full with the WW early on in her invasion anyway and she will likely be seen as a savor before the end.

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6 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Yes to the first 2 paragraphs, but there is no 'back and forth' - GRRM, D&D and Clarke herself are quite clearly portraying a pretty smooth arc in her character development from sweet idealistic victim to evil incarnate. I think a lot of readers/viewers are so hooked on her earlier persona that they're forcing themselves to see her current character as some kind of teenage phase that she'll grow out of. At some point, the penny's has to drop!

Nope.

She has had this back and forth between Fire& Blood and Mhysa several times already. Think of Astapor and the triumphant Fire and Blood moment there when she steals the Unsullied and frees the slaves. At least as triumphant as her Total War speech in the last episode. And then what followed the Astapor moment: first she has 163 masters crucified - then she switched back to Mhysa, appalled and did her utmost to make peace. She even chained up her dragons.

Then things blew up in her face and the dragon queen was back.

Dany isn't a one-dimensional villain. GRRM and D&D do not make things quite so easy for their audience. But she certainly does have a villainous side. About that I agree.

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On 5/30/2016 at 6:07 AM, ummester said:

The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Definitely brought to mind Virgil's lines from The Aeneid:

"The gates of Hell are open night and day;

Smooth the descent, and easy is the way:

But to return, and view the cheerful skies,

In this task and mighty labor lies."

 

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25 minutes ago, Amris said:

Nope.

She has had this back and forth between Fire& Blood and Mhysa several times already. Think of Astapor and the triumphant Fire and Blood moment there when she steals the Unsullied and frees the slaves. At least as triumphant as her Total War speech in the last episode. And then what followed the Astapor moment: first she has 163 masters crucified - then she switched back to Mhysa, appalled and did her utmost to make peace. She even chained up her dragons.

Then things blew up in her face and the dragon queen was back.

Dany isn't a one-dimensional villain. GRRM and D&D do not make things quite so easy for their audience. But she certainly does have a villainous side. About that I agree.

This! But there is more to it.

She has her great triumphant Fire and Blood moment in Astapor through Dracarys but then turns around and goes almost completely non-violent and has one of her ultimate Mhysa moments in Yunkai,  Then she is greeted on her way to Mareen by the crucified children, then she goes ahead and crucifies the Great Master, then she turns around and basically gives everything away in her desire for peace and of course that blows up in her face with the Sons of Harpy. 

Dany is constantly battling between her Dragon side and her Mother sides, it's what makes her, who she is. She can be cruel at times and violent but she is also one of the most empathetic characters in the entire series. She risked her own life to save the Unsullied, had her gambit failed she and all her supporter would have been slaughtered at best. She puts her own self interest aside to govern over Meereen and to protect her people. 

Right now she has embraced her Fire and Blood side but once she sees her "children" the people of Westeros suffering from the plague that is the White Walkers she will once again embrace her Mother side and do whatever it takes to save them. It's like Tyrion said:

Quote

This Mother of Dragons, this Breaker of Chains, is above all a rescuer.

ETA:

Because this is the show forum we should also include the vision of the House of the Undying Dany get at the end of season 2. When she is in the throne room, literally a hand reach away from the throne and is pulled back by the cries of her children and then she is making her way to the heart of winter pass the Wall gates. She will come close to the Iron Throne but she will give it up to save her children. 

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26 minutes ago, DragonDreamer said:

This! But there is more to it.

She has her great triumphant Fire and Blood moment in Astapor through Dracarys but then turns around and goes almost completely non-violent and has one of her ultimate Mhysa moments in Yunkai,  Then she is greeted on her way to Mareen by the crucified children, then she goes ahead and crucifies the Great Master, then she turns around and basically gives everything away in her desire for peace and of course that blows up in her face with the Sons of Harpy. 

Dany is constantly battling between her Dragon side and her Mother sides, it's what makes her, who she is. She can be cruel at times and violent but she is also one of the most empathetic characters in the entire series. She risked her own life to save the Unsullied, had her gambit failed she and all her supporter would have been slaughtered at best. She puts her own self interest aside to govern over Meereen and to protect her people. 

Right now she has embraced her Fire and Blood side but once she sees her "children" the people of Westeros suffering from the plague that is the White Walkers she will once again embrace her Mother side and do whatever it takes to save them. It's like Tyrion said:

ETA:

Because this is the show forum we should also include the vision of the House of the Undying Dany get at the end of season 2. When she is in the throne room, literally a hand reach away from the throne and is pulled back by the cries of her children and then she is making her way to the heart of winter pass the Wall gates. She will come close to the Iron Throne but she will give it up to save her children. 

Maybe, but the problem I am seeing is how she can't really control her Dothraki horde which would basically rape and pillage all the way thru Westeros that already decimated by near constant war for last 5 years. Then her horde would be stopped in their tracks by winter and White Walkers. And THATS going to be her downfall and then remaining characters (Bran, Jon?, Tyrion, Sam) picking up her leavings and dealing with the problem.

 

The problem with Dothraki horde is that they rape and pillage on scale unmatched that in Westeros, even in Riverlands.  Similar to Mongols, on which they were based. And who is going to be hurt, not the nobles who would hole up in their castles behind their walls (till Dragons burn them out), mostly are peasants and poor.

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I see her as a disruptor - she brings chaos, she breaks chains, etc. etc. but she is not a ruler.  She said she wants to break the wheel - maybe her role is to smash the system (feudal monarchy) but she is a hypocrite - you can't say you are going to break the wheel, but use the rules of the wheel to justify you doing it (I take what is mine, yadda yadda) So a conquerer as Dario said is much closer to the truth. I feel like Tyrion's entire role so far this season is to highlight her ineptness of actually ruling.

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5 minutes ago, tormund's beard said:

the second dany gets on a boat slavers bay will drown in blood.

slavers will be back on charge and slave will be back on chains in two weeks tops.

so all she did was to fuck up things and kill a lot of people, but nothing changed.

You do realize that the Dothraki are the number 1 purveyor of slaves in Essos, right? So, if there are no Dothraki providing slaves, then there is very little slavery. Additionally, I get the feeling that the battle of Meereen will decimate a lot of the slaving "management" if you will. The slaving industry will never be the same, and it will eventually disappear.

6 minutes ago, Masha said:

Maybe, but the problem I am seeing is how she can't really control her Dothraki horde which would basically rape and pillage all the way thru Westeros that already decimated by near constant war for last 5 years. Then her horde would be stopped in their tracks by winter and White Walkers. And THATS going to be her downfall and then remaining characters (Bran, Jon?, Tyrion, Sam) picking up her leavings and dealing with the problem.

 

The problem with Dothraki horde is that they rape and pillage on scale unmatched that in Westeros, even in Riverlands.  Similar to Mongols, on which they were based. And who is going to be hurt, not the nobles who would hole up in their castles behind their walls (till Dragons burn them out), mostly are peasants and poor.

I'm not denying that raping and pillagining will not take place but this is no different than all the other Westerosi armies, Not an excuse but to think Dany a villain for this is ridiculous when the armies of Robb Stark were hanging women for laying with "lions". Of course like I said this isn't an excuss and will be detrimental to Westeros, but I think the Long Winter will stop most of the damage they can do from happening and that those armies will then be used to fight the WW. So, while Dany will cause destruction in Westeros (like the other wanabe kings) she will also be of great assistance along with her armies in the battle for Dawn.

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6 minutes ago, Greg B said:

I don't know if Daenerys can keep the Dothraki in line, but burning all their khals alive and then walking out of the flames as they bow down before her is a good start.

This too, when people think you are a demigod it helps. I don't think she'll be able to keep them completely in line but she will have more control of them then the average khal.

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19 minutes ago, DragonDreamer said:

You do realize that the Dothraki are the number 1 purveyor of slaves in Essos, right? So, if there are no Dothraki providing slaves, then there is very little slavery. Additionally, I get the feeling that the battle of Meereen will decimate a lot of the slaving "management" if you will. The slaving industry will never be the same, and it will eventually disappear.

 

meereen isn't the only slaver city, she could barely hold meereen when she was in the city yunkai when back to bussines as soon as she got away from it, and astapor is just bricks covered in blood, corpses and shit. slaves became slavers, its the only thing they know and you can't change that in a couple of years, if dany wants to end slavery in essos she needs to stay in essos to rule but she is not going to rule she just set fire to things and leaves people to deal with it.

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2 minutes ago, tormund's beard said:

meereen isn't the only slaver city, she could barely hold meereen when she was in the city yunkai when back to bussines as soon as she got away from it, and astapor is just bricks covered in blood, corpses and shit. slaves became slavers, its the only thing they know and you can't change that in a couple of years, if dany wants to end slavery in essos she needs to stay in essos to rule but she is not going to rule she just set fire to things and leaves people to deal with it.

You answered non of the points I brought up.

We know from the books that Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen's former Master have align to attack Meereen, if all their forces are attacking Meeteen and Dany come with her huge Dothraki army and destroys those forces who will then be left to manage Slaver's Bay?

There will be no slave traders left because Dany is taking the Dothraki with her and there will be little to no slaving managers, as most of them will be killed in the battle of Meereen. If you decimate the supply side of an institution then you sort of destroy the institution. This is not to say that there won't be some slaving still around but it will be such a small percentage of it that it will not be able to be sustained itself, plus now that the slaves have been embolden to revolt, what is left will eventually be destroyed.

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43 minutes ago, DragonDreamer said:

You answered non of the points I brought up.

We know from the books that Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen's former Master have align to attack Meereen, if all their forces are attacking Meeteen and Dany come with her huge Dothraki army and destroys those forces who will then be left to manage Slaver's Bay?

There will be no slave traders left because Dany is taking the Dothraki with her and there will be little to no slaving managers, as most of them will be killed in the battle of Meereen. If you decimate the supply side of an institution then you sort of destroy the institution. This is not to say that there won't be some slaving still around but it will be such a small percentage of it that it will not be able to be sustained itself, plus now that the slaves have been embolden to revolt, what is left will eventually be destroyed.

What we learn from Astapor and Yunkai in the books is that the strongest of the ex-slaves become the new slavemasters.

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5 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

What we learn from Astapor and Yunkai in the books is that the strongest of the ex-slaves become the new slavemasters.

And they were massacred by the Yunkai army.

Further, the majority of the former slaves have not becomes slavers. Add to that, no supply because no Dothraki and you have a failing system.

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Just now, DragonDreamer said:

And they were massacred by the Yunkai army.

Further, the majority of the former slaves have not becomes slavers. Add to that, no supply because no Dothraki and you have a failing system.

I don't think so. Essos has been a dog-eat-dog world since the dawn of time. Dany hadn't realised how deep savage sentiments were under the veneer of high culture, and now she's losing interest anyway.

I made a post a day or two back where I traced the earliest stories of Planetos prehistory. At a time in Westeros before Men arrived, Children and giants lived in harmony with nature; whereas in Essos Men built 'civilization' by exploitation of nature, slavery and militarization before later expanding into Westeros and destroying the harmony that existed there.

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2 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

I don't think so. Essos has been a dog-eat-dog world since the dawn of time. Dany hadn't realised how deep savage sentiments were under the veneer of high culture, and now she's losing interest anyway.

I made a post a day or two back where I traced the earliest stories of Planetos prehistory. At a time in Westeros before Men arrived, Children and giants lived in harmony with nature; whereas in Essos Men built 'civilization' by exploitation of nature, slavery and militarization before later expanding into Westeros and destroying the harmony that existed there.

This is a lot of supposition on your part which does not take into account the actual history of Essos. As we know slavery began with the Valyrians and their use of dragon to enslave people. So, we should get that straight. 

You also don't take into account all the other places in Essos were slavery isn't practice such as Braavos and the other free cities. And while we know some merchants do use slaves in these free cities, that is a very small portion of the population and has nothing to do with what is happening in Slaver's Bay. 

I'm not saying that slavery will go away completely away when Dany give it an almost killing blow but it will never recover, not to the extent it exist today. And like Braavos it will eventually die at the hands by those former slaves that wish to destroy for good. 

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