So about this Cincinnati Zoo gorilla they killed..

[Calibandar]

Came across this news story today.

4 year old boy was left unattended, or in any case the parents were not paying attention to him, as he crawled under metal bars, through bushes and shrubs, and fell into a moat that divides the gorilla enclose from the visitors.

Two female gorillas are distracted and sent inside but the silverback has seen the boy and slowly moves to him.

Eventually he stands over him in the moat. Seems to want to protect him.  All of this is recorded on video.

They ended up shooting the gorilla because he might have hurt the child due to his strength. There is a lot of talk about the reason for them doing this is because the gorilla supposedly dragged the boy across the area at some point. However that does not appear anywhere, on none of the videos do you actually see the gorilla get rough with him, which is what is widely being reported by the media. This sort of thing annoys me. 

There are multiple angles on the gorilla standing over him on the moat, but no one has video of that dragging or any rough play, but it is being reported that exactly that is why they shot him.

In any case, very sad that a rare gorilla had to die, and especially as it seems from the footage that there was not even bad intent. 

[Theda Baratheon]

As an animal lover I know I am prone to emotional posts on these sorts of topics (I don't apologize for that either) but from the video footage all I saw was the Gorilla lifting him up out of the water and taking the boy out of the moat. I don't read animal minds so I don't know what the gorilla would have done but all I  say about this story is the fucking parents should maybe have paid better attention to their child and maybe this endangered animal wouldn't have been killed. It isnt as though it was easy to get there, the kid wen past two fences, bushes and then fell into the moat so was unattended for awhile. 

[maarsen]

Dian Fossey spent years interacting with gorillas and at no pint was ever in danger from an adult male. A toddler in a moat is in more danger of drowning than of being killed by a gorilla, if said gorilla did not drag him out. Altruistic behaviour in animals other than humans is well documented so my money would be on the gorilla actually saving the toddler's life. Having said that, what kind of fucking morons are parents that let a child get so far away? I would have been over both fences and across the moat for my child before the gorilla even got close.

[polishgenius]

I'm blaming the zoo designers more than the parents. It should on no account be possible for a child that young to get into an animal enclosure by accident. If he got past two fences, then the fences weren't good enough.

I mean it's easy to say the parents weren't paying attention but we don't know how quickly they noticed he was gone or how long they were looking. There's no parent in the world who hasn't at some stage taken an eye off their kid in public for a second or two, and kids can disappear fast. It's tragic that this happened as a result this time but places like this should be built with that in mind - after all they are marketed very heavily as family attractions.

 

34 minutes ago, maarsen said:

Altruistic behaviour in animals other than humans is well documented

 

Yeah, but so is antagonistic behaviour, come on. And even if the gorilla didn't mean to hurt him, like Leap says you can see in the video that he posted that the gorilla's being quite rough, he might have been playing but not understood he'd hurt the kid.

Dian Fossey was an adult and professional who worked very hard to win the trust of the gorillas she worked with. There's really no comparison to a random four-year-old.

[Theda Baratheon]

When you take your kid to the zoo or a place like a zoo you should pay attention to them. Im not happy with the zoo either but then I haven't really liked or agreed with Zoos in quite awhile

[Theda Baratheon]

I men I am not an animal expert and I dont know what the gorilla would have done but this could have been prevented if the play was more secure and bloody parents kept an eye on their kid. Im sorry but parents are people too and people are stupid and make mistakes but this mistake cost an animal its life. 

[Dr. Pepper]

Eh, it takes a second for a child to wander off.  Unless you are advocating children have to walk around on leashes, sometimes it just happens that they get into things they aren't supposed to get into.  At places like zoos, there should be no possible way a kid can just accidentally slip into the animal's pen.  I think this is a terrible accident.  I hope the child is ok. 

Now, the dude who jumped into a lion's pit forcing the zookeepers to kill the lions....fuck that dude (though, tbf, I think I read he was suicidal so I do feel extreme sympathy and acknowledge he probably was not thinking clearly).

Also, I hate zoos.  Why do these things still exist?

[Rorshach]

While I'm not going to say it's not tragic that the gorilla was killed, to claim that parents should always have control over their children in such a circumstance reads to me like "your children should be on a leash". 

Outside of that, or the children being shy, sorry, your claim doesn't correspond to reality. 

[maarsen]

My daughter, at that age, loved to run and hide from us.We had to keep her on a leash around her wrist. Either that or never let go of her hand. We have had to get large department stores put in lockdown when my wife or I had to let go of her for an instant and she would disappear amongst the clothing carousels.

[kairparavel]

Parents, like everybody else, make mistakes. Most don't make internationally covered mistakes, but they make them. So let's not get too judgey on the parents losing track of their kid. It happens. It just doesn't always involve the death of an animal. It could have involved the death of their child, and thankfully it didn't. 

[Dr. Pepper]

2 hours ago, maarsen said:

Dian Fossey spent years interacting with gorillas and at no pint was ever in danger from an adult male. A toddler in a moat is in more danger of drowning than of being killed by a gorilla, if said gorilla did not drag him out. Altruistic behaviour in animals other than humans is well documented so my money would be on the gorilla actually saving the toddler's life. Having said that, what kind of fucking morons are parents that let a child get so far away? I would have been over both fences and across the moat for my child before the gorilla even got close.

What?  But then you....

46 minutes ago, maarsen said:

My daughter, at that age, loved to run and hide from us.We had to keep her on a leash around her wrist. Either that or never let go of her hand. We have had to get large department stores put in lockdown when my wife or I had to let go of her for an instant and she would disappear amongst the clothing carousels.

It's almost sad that the person who knows exactly how quickly a child can disappear - so often, in fact, they eventually had to use a leash to keep her safe - is also the person who has zero sympathy for another parent whose kid also got away from them.

Figures.

I guess now is a good time to point out that parents who jump in (if an adult could even find their way in) after their kid would actually then be easily classified as morons.  It might be easy to think that's super heroic or whatever, but it could quickly change the dynamics in the enclosure such that a gorilla who appears moderately calm could turn violent if another foreigner is introduced to his home, especially one in such an unusual way as jumping twelve feet from above.  

I think while I'm on this rant, I also want to roll my eyes in the harshest way possible to anyone (here and across the net) who thinks they are now somehow experts in gorilla behavior, especially this particular gorilla.  I'm pretty sure the trained keepers who worked with Harambe every single day made this decision based on everything they knew about him.  If they determined it needed to be done, I think we should all trust that, rather than use our gorilla youtube university diplomas to pretend we know better. 

[Calibandar]

I think it's a bit difficult to blame the parent, or parents, simply because I do not know the circumstances.

What's clear is that he escaped her attention, crawled under metal bars and later on fell into the moat.

From that I wouldn't make a judgement on the parents; they may have been careless, but then again, maybe not.

I think from the zoo perspective though, if the gorilla was really starting to roughhouse with the boy, then I can understand why they act because their thought is "boy's life more valuable than gorilla's, because he's human".

Absent evidence of that though, they may have been premature and that saddens me. The gorilla did not seem bad intentioned at all, so they are ending his life simply on the premise that something could happen. That's even worse than if he had actually abused the child. Better safe than sorry they say, but at the expense of the life of a magnificent and innocent animal.

Apparently the two female gorillas were going crazy when the silverback was shot, they just knew what had happened even though they were out of sight.

 

 

[rocksniffer]

well cheers to everyone who has an opinion...and i respect them all...

here's mine...

zoo enclosure should have been completely secure so that no one young or old could have gained entry - no question...

parents should be buggy whipped...in a crowded area like a zoo why would you ever take your eyes or your hands off your 4 yr old child...danger comes in more forms than wild animals when you are surrounded by strangers

 

of course that is just this old asshole's opinion, feel free to disagree

 

[Dr. Pepper]

5 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

Absent evidence of that though, they may have been premature and that saddens me. The gorilla did not seem bad intentioned at all, so they are ending his life simply on the premise that something could happen. That's even worse than if he had actually abused the child. Better safe than sorry they say, but at the expense of the life of a magnificent and innocent animal.

I'd think you wouldn't want to reach the point where something does happen.  There's a lot of things they can't know, like the injuries the child has already sustained which could be life threatening on their own.  Just pushing the kid around in the water, whether Harambe's intentions were good or not, is a serious danger to the child. It's surely a huge and upsetting loss, and I'm sure they didn't come to the decision lightly at all.  

3 minutes ago, rocksniffer said:

 

parents should be buggy whipped...in a crowded area like a zoo why would you ever take your eyes or your hands off your 4 yr old child...danger comes in more forms than wild animals when you are surrounded by strangers

What the fuck is wrong with you people?  Not only is it incredibly easy to lose track of a kid, but this family is already dealing with a hurt child, will almost surely undergo a CPS investigation, will possibly experience extreme guilt over what happened to Harambe, are being ridiculed all across the web (sometimes even from parents who have already fucking dealt with a child slipping away ffs) and yet you're advocating for cruel, unusual, inhumane, and medieval punishment.  

[Calibandar]

They may feel some guilt over the death of the silverback, but if anyone should feel that guilt, it's the zoo.

And they should feel guilty because they were not able to come to a satisfying solution. Unless you think shooting the gorilla is a satisfying solution. Whatever else you may think, they let him down, big time. The boy simply should not be able to just crawl in there, and when that happened, it is my feeling they were too quick to shoot the animal. This can only be seen as satisfying if you think that even the chance that something might happen to the child, is sufficient reason to kill the gorilla. This is not a view I subscribe to.

[maarsen]

1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said:

What?  But then you....

It's almost sad that the person who knows exactly how quickly a child can disappear - so often, in fact, they eventually had to use a leash to keep her safe - is also the person who has zero sympathy for another parent whose kid also got away from them.

Figures.

I guess now is a good time to point out that parents who jump in (if an adult could even find their way in) after their kid would actually then be easily classified as morons.  It might be easy to think that's super heroic or whatever, but it could quickly change the dynamics in the enclosure such that a gorilla who appears moderately calm could turn violent if another foreigner is introduced to his home, especially one in such an unusual way as jumping twelve feet from above.  

I think while I'm on this rant, I also want to roll my eyes in the harshest way possible to anyone (here and across the net) who thinks they are now somehow experts in gorilla behavior, especially this particular gorilla.  I'm pretty sure the trained keepers who worked with Harambe every single day made this decision based on everything they knew about him.  If they determined it needed to be done, I think we should all trust that, rather than use our gorilla youtube university diplomas to pretend we know better. 

She did it once with me and once with my wife. We learned fast. We also stopped taking her to areas with crowds unless we had firm control. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 hours ago, polishgenius said:

I'm blaming the zoo designers more than the parents. It should on no account be possible for a child that young to get into an animal enclosure by accident. If he got past two fences, then the fences weren't good enough.

I mean it's easy to say the parents weren't paying attention but we don't know how quickly they noticed he was gone or how long they were looking. There's no parent in the world who hasn't at some stage taken an eye off their kid in public for a second or two, and kids can disappear fast. It's tragic that this happened as a result this time but places like this should be built with that in mind - after all they are marketed very heavily as family attractions.

 

 

Yeah, but so is antagonistic behaviour, come on. And even if the gorilla didn't mean to hurt him, like Leap says you can see in the video that he posted that the gorilla's being quite rough, he might have been playing but not understood he'd hurt the kid.

Dian Fossey was an adult and professional who worked very hard to win the trust of the gorillas she worked with. There's really no comparison to a random four-year-old.

 

[Dr. Pepper]

10 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

They may feel some guilt over the death of the silverback, but if anyone should feel that guilt, it's the zoo.

And they should feel guilty because they were not able to come to a satisfying solution. Unless you think shooting the gorilla is a satisfying solution. Whatever else you may think, they let him down, big time. The boy simply should not be able to just crawl in there, and when that happened, it is my feeling they were too quick to shoot the animal. This can only be seen as satisfying if you think that even the chance that something might happen to the child, is sufficient reason to kill the gorilla. This is not a view I subscribe to.

I didn't say anything about it being a satisfying conclusion.  I've explicitly stated that this is all very terrible.  What I have said is that I'm pretty sure the trained professionals know more than all of these newly minted armchair gorilla experts who are suddenly coming out of the woodwork.  You might feel like they were too quick to kill Harambe, but there isn't any reason to not trust that they made the best decision they could based on what they knew as well as what they didn't know.  I'm fairly certain that making this really sad and hard decision doesn't actually prevent anyone involved from feeling guilt, remorse and also work towards making sure things like this don't happen again.

Though, of course, eliminating zoos altogether would probably be the best solution.  These places shouldn't exist.  

5 minutes ago, maarsen said:

She did it once with me and once with my wife. We learned fast. We also stopped taking her to areas with crowds unless we had firm control. 

The point is that you first hand experience about how easy it is to lose track of a child so your 'what kind of fucking moron parents let this happen' is utter bullshit. 

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

No.  The parents are at fault.  My 4 year old's hand was never out of mine, my wife's, or another trusted family member.  Particularly in a crowed locale like the Zoo.

Why was the Silverback shot instead of tranquilized?

[maarsen]

She was 2 when she started to run. By the time she was the age of the kid in the zoo, 4, the situation was well in hand.