Dr. Pepper Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 32 minutes ago, Howdyphillip said: What would we ever do without our gorilla prognosticator who knows all things about situations involving primates? It's more that I just have basic common sense. Though, to be fair, I'm aware and I understand how this can completely escape people when a kid is in imminent danger. Or when an endangered animal is killed. ETA: The sad thing is that if the parent had reacted stupidly, had jumped in the pen and tried to fight the gorilla for her son and the gorilla was shot anyway and two people instead of one were injured, the headlines would likely be reading something like "Hero Mom Saves Son From Gorilla" with maybe a tiny byline that the gorilla is now dead. That's hero culture fo ya. Everyone wants a hero or wants to be a hero. Not enough think about how stupid and harmful trying to play hero can actually be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocksniffer Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 6 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said: Ultimately Zoos should just be phased out and I say this as someone who visited the Zoo often as a kid and loved it. Zoos are just businesses like old sideshows and the animals are commodities...it's all about money. It matter how many animals you breed in zoos that doesnt help the animals in the wild. Maybe some individual zoos are good and educational but zoos as a whole are not. Sanctuaries are different because they're not about gaining maximum profit by presenting animals like nice furniture. Genuine sanctuaries and charities I sympathise with but the more I think about them the creepier zoos become dear Theda, my thoughts exactly...when i was a kid going to the new orleans' audubon zoo was a big happening for my brothers,sisters, and i. but we were kids...what did we know... even great modern zoos that really make large efforts to make their habits realistic...a cage is still a cage...and especially for the large mammals it is inhumane...in my not so humble opinion...life no possibility of parole...and for this gorilla, a death sentience. 6 hours ago, Leap said: I've talked this over with my family, and we had the tranquilliser conversation too - agreeing that tranquillisers would not have the immediate effect of a bullet, and that the Zoo were right to take the action to kill the Gorilla in order to avoid the death of a four year old/a law suit. What's the alternative? You wait and hope that the Gorilla isn't aggressive? Is there remotely enough documentation of friendly Silverback Gorillas to justify that risk? As to whether the zoo is at fault for not creating a safer environment - i.e. not making it totally impossible for the kids to get into the enclosure...I think it's compelling, but then kids are devious little buggers, who can fit through gaps that adults would consider way too small. I'm not a parent, but I've spent several years volunteering with kids - large groups of them, only a few years older than the child in question. If I thought there was a chance that a child could get into an enclosure, there's no way I would take my eye of them. So, in short: No, it probably shouldn't be possible for a child to get into an enclosure. I think zoos are generally a pretty fucked up concept anyway. However, given the practicalities of the situation, the parents are definitely responsible for looking after their kid, and ultimately the fact that they weren't - however understandable that is, caused the death of an innocent animal. well said, Leap...i have been to zoos where access to gorillas included climbing a 25 foot fence, something a 4 yr old could not do unobserved...and honestly the fence did not distract from my experience which was already disturbed by the way the poor creatures were just staring off into space waiting for a meal...like some of the patients i shared a mental ward with once.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Anti-Targ Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Pretty disgusted at all the hate to the parents. You have an energetic 4 year old you can't keep your eye on him 100% of the time, and a willful child will do what he wants as soon as the opportunity arises. I'm with Piers Morgan's tweet "RIP Harambe. A magnificent gorilla dies because a zoo failed to make its barriers safe." It's totally the zoo's responsibility to make sure that humans and potentially dangerous animals can never mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 2 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said: Pretty disgusted at all the hate to the parents. You have an energetic 4 year old you can't keep your eye on him 100% of the time, and a willful child will do what he wants as soon as the opportunity arises. I'm with Piers Morgan's tweet "RIP Harambe. A magnificent gorilla dies because a zoo failed to make its barriers safe." It's totally the zoo's responsibility to make sure that humans and potentially dangerous animals can never mix. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Rocksniffer, I believe I... may, have been to the zoo you mention. I keep a fair grip on my young ones when we're there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocksniffer Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 17 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Rocksniffer, I believe I... may, have been to the zoo you mention. I keep a fair grip on my young ones when we're there. Ser Scot, yes i am sure it is the same one...and i was glad they added the complete glass enclosure to view the gorillas safely from....i am not a zoo advocate, but i am of the opinion that like you i am more concerned when in a crowded unknown environment that my child is safely in my grip...in fact the only part of said zoo she is allowed to venture ungripped in the skyhigh safari and the rock climbing wall... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Rocksniffer, Next winter season I'm doing "zip the zoo". They cut the prices in half and more during the week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Anti-Targ Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 In this situation, IMO, anyone jumping in to the enclosure to confront the gorilla is more likely to get the kid killed or injured far worse than what he was than to save the kid. I'm not a gorilla behaviour expert, but just on the general principles of animal behaviour it's all about threat perception and response. The gorilla sees the kid as a baby and thus no threat to its territory, most likely a bit of a plaything. If the gorilla had seen the kid as a threat he'd be dead before anyone could respond to save him. The gorilla sees an adult though as a potential significant threat and an invader of his territory and will only become more aggressive. Fight or flight is the binary response to a threat, and there is virtually nothing but another Silverback that's going to get an adult male gorilla to flee. Maybe the gorilla gently puts the boy down and charges the person without trampling on the boy, and proceeds to beat the person to a pulp. But that's about the best case scenario of an adult invading the enclosure. Worst case is 3 deaths, instead of the 1 we got. I don't think you could blame a parent for instinctively jumping in to a situation like this, after all, that's the same basic animal instinct as well: fight or flight. When you jump in like that you are obeying one of those laws of nature. But the result of that instinctive action has a very high probability of making matters worse. The better course of action here is not to jump in. IMO the parent made absolutely the right call to stay out of the enclosure and talk to her son. Personally I think it is offensive to criticise either decision because both decisions are made with the purest of intent to get the best possible outcome once the situation has been created, which is to get the boy out alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 9 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said: Personally I think it is offensive to criticise either decision because both decisions are made with the purest of intent to get the best possible outcome once the situation has been created, which is to get the boy out alive. I agree and I also disagree. I don't think there's any value in directly telling a person who has jumped in the gorilla cage which resulted in causing more harm than there otherwise would have been. They probably already know it and we can all understand the reason why someone would instinctively act in that way. I don't think it's inherently offensive to discuss something that has become a public story, and thankfully in this case the name of the child and his family have been kept private. Where I disagree is when the discussion is about hypotheticals. I don't think hypotheticals should be off limits to criticism. That's sort of what hypotheticals are there for. Sure, someone might use a scenario that they discover they are really sensitive about, as we saw with the case of the poster with the mother situation, but that's still not a good reason to not critically evaluate freely offered hypothetical situations. If I said I arrive home and my house in on fire and I see the babysitter got out but my child is still in there somewhere and the fire department is already on scene and they know exactly where the child is and how to get to him and are working to rescue my child but I'm going to go ahead and run headlong into the burning house anyway, I should reasonably expect someone to criticize this and point out that it's simply not smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocksniffer Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Rocksniffer, Next winter season I'm doing "zip the zoo". They cut the prices in half and more during the week. yes i might do this as well. the girls have been bugging me to do so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubby Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 [MOD] A long derail has been deleted. All participants (and I do mean all) need to move on and get this discussion back on topic. Thanks [/MOD] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocksniffer Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 because i respect the Stubby One who protects us from drop bears i shall submit... though sometimes i wonder if the night is dark and full of terrors or just dark and full of shit... and to be on topic...just in case anyone was worried...i think the zoo and the parents were at fault and that the gorilla was an innocent bystander, fucked for no good reason... so sayeth the sniffer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 When things like this happen, there is usually at least some talk about zoos needing to be banned. I wonder if that will ever come to pass and how it would be possible. Blackfish may have been a catalyst for SeaWorld to end it's captive orca breeding program and to phase out theatrical orca shows. Captive orcas will die out within the next generation but there are still all of the other animals in aquatic zoos. And conventional zoos completely missed any of the criticism that came about post Blackfish. Zoos in general continue to be so popular. I suppose it's just natural that people would want to look at animals. Is there a reasonable and humane alternative? Drive through free range zoos (do these things have a specific name?)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibandar Posted May 30, 2016 Author Share Posted May 30, 2016 I don't think zoos should be closed and do not agree with the general anti-zoo sentiment that pervades this thread. There's things to be said against them, but also things to be said for them. Flawed as they are, the need for them is certainly there in a world where the habitat and poaching of a great deal of animals is such that their numbers are down to double digits. Another part of it is that of course they do actually educate people about the animal world. To say that doesn't happen is to be oblivious to the actual effect a zoo's animals and the info they give, has on people in the real world. I know I learned a lot about animals from my visits as a child as well as an adult. As for alternative, safari parks are a bit different, we have them where I live and in the UK as well, where they have much more room to roam across. People drive their car through the areas even due to the distances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Can someone start an ethics of zoos topic then because i have a lot of opinions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorMakhnosLovechild Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 This is the new Cecil the Lion thread of 2016. Zoos are cruel and inhumane, and should be abolished in civilized society. The space allowed to individual animals, especially large and intelligent mammals, is simply far, far too small to be considered adequate or humane. If the only two alternatives were to say, let a species of gorilla become extinct, or to house a few dozen across the world in tiny cement enclosures, the most humane solution would be to let them slip into extinction. But, that's not the topic. The standard for when you kill an animal to safeguard a human being is much, much lower than for when you kill a human being to safeguard a human being. Judging by the video alone of this gorilla dragging the four year old through the water, the decision to shoot and kill it was, without a single doubt, the correct one. Anyone suggesting otherwise is, at best, dangerously deluded. As to whether there's some other culpability here. Maybe. Without knowing more, I'm not ready to excoriate the parents. But even if there was, assigning after the fact blame has nothing to do with whether or not it was the right call to execute the gorilla on the spot - which it absolutely was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Well in fact thousands of people have signed a petition to have these parents prosecuted. And police say they may face criminal charges. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cincinnati-zoo-boys-parents-could-be-prosecuted-for-gorilla-death-police-harambe-a7056246.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorMakhnosLovechild Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 16 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said: Well in fact thousands of people have signed a petition to have these parents prosecuted. And police say they may face criminal charges. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cincinnati-zoo-boys-parents-could-be-prosecuted-for-gorilla-death-police-harambe-a7056246.html What the police are in fact doing is passing the buck. If the police felt as if they had evidence to prove that some kind of criminal child endangerment had taken place, they could have arrested the parents and sought charges themselves. They didn't, and apparently have no intention of doing so. All the article states is that, when questioned, the police said that the Prosecutor's office "could" still bring charges. Which is true, but does not give any actual indication that the Prosecutor's office has any intention of doing so. Certainly, the police don't, or they would have done it already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Why does everything have to be someone's fault? By all accounts, the barrier had never been breached, had passed inspection every time, and an incident like this had never occurred. The mother could have been anywhere from blameless to mildly negligent, but your kid getting through two fences, bushes and then falling into the enclosure is not something you're going to be considering as an outcome. It took so many completely fluky things for it to get to this point, it seems like this is a case of "shit happens." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 The Western Lowland Gorillas status- http://www.bustle.com/articles/163740-how-endangered-are-western-lowland-gorillas-like-the-one-at-the-cincinnati-zoo At least this wasn't a Mountain Gorilla death- http://www.bagheera.com/inthewild/van_anim_gorilla.htm There numbers have tragically declined to only 600 worldwide now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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