Light a wight tonight Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 9 hours ago, TheBraveSerDavos said: What annoys me is when I see fans trying to explain how Jon is the true king and that Rhaeger secretly married Lyanna and now he is going to ride dragons and single handedly defeat all the wight walkers and then marry daenerys and they all live happily ever after under the reign of King Jon Targaryen. It's not just Jon's fans that do this. There's a certain class of fan that does this for whomever their personal favorite is. Especially fans of Dany and Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Beaudreau Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 The One thing that always bothered me about the R+L = J is that I feel like there is really just circumstantial evidence that Jon is Rhagar's son. It seems just as likely to me that Dany is the child of Rhagar and Lyanna. It fits the timeline and we know that their are some real problems with Dany's memories of her childhood. While she was supposedly in Bravos as a child she clams that their was a lemon tree outside her window. she also says that their were sweet and hot smells. Bravos doesn't have any lemon trees. and it is also foggy and pretty much shit weather all the time in Bravos. It sounds more like she was in Dorne as a baby and young child. If you were born at the Tower of Joy and need to hide out for a time before you could cross the Narrow sea, Dorne seems like the best place to go. Ned could have just as easily promised Lyanna to keep Dany safe. Daenerys is historically the Targaryen name associated with Dorne. After the Tower of Joy Ned goes to Starfall to Return the famous family sword Dawn. In exchange for returning the sword, the Dayne's take the Baby Daenerys and vow to keep her safe, Ned also takes Brandon Starks bastard son Jon Snow home that Brandon Conceived with Ashara Dayne. Thats right R+L=D and BS+AD=J. Just as likely. But it should really be Jon Sand not Jon Snow since he was born at Starfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damon_Tor Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 14 hours ago, Elisabetta Duò said: except that Harry Potter was the chosen one Daily reminder that Neville Longbottom destroyed the final Horcrux and actually defeated Voldemort. Harry is not, and never was, the chosen one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 15 hours ago, TheBraveSerDavos said: So first off I just wanna say that I think R+L=J is probably true. Personally I'm not a huge fan of it because of how the fan base treats it. George RR Martin prides himself on defying traditional fantasy tropes and sterotypes. He does everything he can to make his story morally grey with no true good guys or bad guys. There isn't such a thing as a fairy tale ending in ASOIF. Yet a bunch of R+L=J fans seem to forget this. What annoys me is when I see fans trying to explain how Jon is the true king and that Rhaeger secretly married Lyanna and now he is going to ride dragons and single handedly defeat all the wight walkers and then marry daenerys and they all live happily ever after under the reign of King Jon Targaryen. First off, anyone who believes Rhaeger married Lyanna in secret to ensure they would have a legitimate heir is just wishful thinking. The Targaryan polygamy precedent doesn't really count since one Targaryen in the history of their entire house practiced it. Another thing is by making Jon this destined chosen hero who saves the day from a terrible evil and becomes a great King and savior would be doing the absolute last thing George RR Martin wants to do. And that's creating a stereotypical fantasy hero who defies the odds and saves the day to live happily ever after. Sorry for the rant. I'm just getting sick of how everyone has to be a secret Targaryen and a lot of R+L=J fans act like how it means Jon Snow is going to become a Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter style chosen one. Anyhow, what are your all thoughts on the situation? While I do believe that Jon is the "legitimate" son of Rhaegar and Lyanna (as in, they married in some fashion), I do not believe that this makes Jon the "true Targ heir" or "true" King, or any such thing. While I do think Martin's tapping into the idea of the "long lost true heir/ king in hiding" trope, I think he's doing so to the opposite end-- instead of setting up what, in other stories would render Jon the uncontested "true heir" to the throne, primed to come in and take his rightful seat and the world will rejoice, Jon will never become king of the IT, or if he does, it will be expressly not because of any appeal to or recognition of his Targ lineage. The idea of the previous dynasty's heir returning as the "true king" just doesn't work that way in ASOIAF. The whole idea of "true heir" and "rightfulness" has been challenged and rewritten throughout the entire story. There is no such thing as a "true heir/ king," so Jon's being the legit son of R+L (and possibly Rhaegar's heir), doesn't mean that Jon is the "true king" by any stretch of the imagination (or even that the Targs are the "rightful" or "true" kings of Westeros). Beyond that, we get Dany and Aegon performing aspects of the "return of the true hidden king" trope to complicate and unpack what the idea of "rightful/ true heir" means even further-- it's not just Jon with the Aragorn-esque storyline. Aegon's foil to Jon is especially interesting in my view, because I think we'll see him fullfill the Aragorn trope more fully than Jon will in the sense that he's revealed himself as a long lost son of Rhaegar first and totally looks the part, so he'll be the one the public will believe to be the Targ heir over Jon. So I'm with you in disagreeing with the view that R+L=J means that Jon is the "true king" and he'll claim a Targ identity, and this will make everything fall in line for him to the throne. I think it will unfold oppositely to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One-eyed Misbehavin Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Looks like I came to the party late but Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. The KG were there bc Rhaegar was so beloved this is backed up by Arthur Dayne being there. It doesn't matter if they were ordered/if a crown prince has the authority to order them. All I know is Rhaegar asked the 3 available/most trusted KG to protect his infant (he probably knew he would lose at the trident) to think that R + L doesn't = J is absolutely ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One-eyed Misbehavin Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Also when you find out Rhaegar is Prince Charming and Lyanna is super sexy/cool chick, you realize that Jon has to be their son and that Lyanna wasn't raped/held against her will (except maybe when Ned fought the 7v3) IMHO Lyanna was just to weak to help in anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisabetta Duò Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 3 hours ago, Damon_Tor said: Daily reminder that Neville Longbottom destroyed the final Horcrux and actually defeated Voldemort. Harry is not, and never was, the chosen one. no, you are wrong (so the one who destroyed the last horcrux - with the sword snape provided and harry found, btw - is the chosen one?!). Harry was the chosen one for like 30958275012482 reasons but it would be out of topic to go in depth about it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaywolf123 Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 I think that R+L=J is real but that does not mean that he is legit, possibilities 1.R+L did not marry: - he is a bastard - Rhaegar might have planned to legitmise the babe .- Rhaegar ordered the KG to stay no matter what similar to how stannis order justin massey to return even if he hears that stannis is dead. 2. R+L did marry - Legit in the sight of the gods but not the faith of the seven unless the highsepton recognised him - Cant prove it - Married to Lyanna as a second wife - Married lyanna and put elia to the side that said I don't think Jon will have much to do with the iron throne well he wont sit it as king maybe as hand. I see Jon more as a Stark his place is in the North and teh Wall. Jon will be more like a Cregan Stark 2.0 i think. He will march south to force peace and turn the southron attention to the north. Among the people he will behead in the purge aka hour of the wolf 2,0 is petyr baelish im sure as he and Larys Strong has alot om paralells. (my pet theory is that Daenerys is foreshadowed by Rhaeneyra and Tommen by Daeron the good Dany and Rhaneyra both starts well liked but go down a more cruel path. Rhaneyras son became king after the dance so she kinda won the war alltho i think that Aegon the second was the true king. But i think Dany will have a daughter maybe named Visenya. Tommen and Daeron was both rumored to be fathered by their unckle Aemon and Jaime. Both were plump. Both had a more martial bastard brother Edric Storm and Daemon Blackfyre. Tommen will marry Visenya condirmed Ps Jaime and Cersei are Tywins) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieVIP Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 R+L = J is real, at least I think. They might even get married like Robb Stark and Jeyne Westerling did. And as many already said it, you shouldn't bother about others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 9 hours ago, House Beaudreau said: The One thing that always bothered me about the R+L = J is that I feel like there is really just circumstantial evidence that Jon is Rhagar's son. It seems just as likely to me that Dany is the child of Rhagar and Lyanna. It fits the timeline and we know that their are some real problems with Dany's memories of her childhood. While she was supposedly in Bravos as a child she clams that their was a lemon tree outside her window. she also says that their were sweet and hot smells. Bravos doesn't have any lemon trees. and it is also foggy and pretty much shit weather all the time in Bravos. It sounds more like she was in Dorne as a baby and young child. If you were born at the Tower of Joy and need to hide out for a time before you could cross the Narrow sea, Dorne seems like the best place to go. Ned could have just as easily promised Lyanna to keep Dany safe. Daenerys is historically the Targaryen name associated with Dorne. After the Tower of Joy Ned goes to Starfall to Return the famous family sword Dawn. In exchange for returning the sword, the Dayne's take the Baby Daenerys and vow to keep her safe, Ned also takes Brandon Starks bastard son Jon Snow home that Brandon Conceived with Ashara Dayne. Thats right R+L=D and BS+AD=J. Just as likely. But it should really be Jon Sand not Jon Snow since he was born at Starfall. No. Defintely not. We know when Dany was conceived, and is was shortly before Lyanna died. Unless she got a one-month-pregnancy, no way in hell. Nor does Brandon fit. Because that would necessitate a 24-month-pregnancy. That's my problem with the R+L=J detractors: making up arguments already proven wrong twenty years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 9 hours ago, House Beaudreau said: The One thing that always bothered me about the R+L = J is that I feel like there is really just circumstantial evidence that Jon is Rhagar's son. It seems just as likely to me that Dany is the child of Rhagar and Lyanna. It fits the timeline If she was born 9 months after the Sack, then she couldn't have been fathered by Rhaegar on Lyanna, because Rhaegar 1) was dead, and 2) nowhere near Lyanna just prior. 9 hours ago, House Beaudreau said: and we know that their are some real problems with Dany's memories of her childhood. While she was supposedly in Bravos as a child she clams that their was a lemon tree outside her window. she also says that their were sweet and hot smells. Bravos doesn't have any lemon trees. and it is also foggy and pretty much shit weather all the time in Bravos. Braavos doesn't have any trees outside the gardens of the mighty and it is autumn. 9 hours ago, House Beaudreau said: It sounds more like she was in Dorne as a baby and young child. If you were born at the Tower of Joy and need to hide out for a time before you could cross the Narrow sea, Dorne seems like the best place to go. "For a time" would be here about 3-4 years. So, after 3-4 years in Braavos, a ten-year-old Viserys is presented with a little girl whom he had never seen before, "this is your sister, nvm that you have never heard about her". Also, the Small Council at KL must have had a hard time. "WUT? Daenerys Targaryen? How come we never heard of her before?! " 9 hours ago, House Beaudreau said: Ned could have just as easily promised Lyanna to keep Dany safe. Which he achieved by sending her away, painting a target on her back by making her a public Targaryen, and never thinking about her in fourteen years. And when Robert ordered her dead, the best Ned could do to keep her safe was to resign his position. Wow. 9 hours ago, House Beaudreau said: Daenerys is historically the Targaryen name associated with Dorne. After the Tower of Joy Ned goes to Starfall to Return the famous family sword Dawn. In exchange for returning the sword, the Dayne's take the Baby Daenerys and vow to keep her safe, See above. 9 hours ago, House Beaudreau said: Ned also takes Brandon Starks bastard son Jon Snow home that Brandon Conceived with Ashara Dayne. Thats right R+L=D and BS+AD=J. Just as likely. But it should really be Jon Sand not Jon Snow since he was born at Starfall. Time-travelling sperm and toddlers passed off as newborns, I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MostlyMoody Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 32 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said: No. Defintely not. We know when Dany was conceived, and is was shortly before Lyanna died. Unless she got a one-month-pregnancy, no way in hell. Nor does Brandon fit. Because that would necessitate a 24-month-pregnancy. That's my problem with the R+L=J detractors: making up arguments already proven wrong twenty years ago. We know when Dany was conceived? Shit you must have read something no one else has. You do realize if Dany was born to Rhaella when Aerys raped her before the sack, then that obviously makes R+L=D false, the whole point of the theory is saying that she wasn't born on Dragonstone dawg. xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 21 hours ago, TheBraveSerDavos said: First off, anyone who believes Rhaeger married Lyanna in secret to ensure they would have a legitimate heir is just wishful thinking. The Targaryan polygamy precedent doesn't really count since one Targaryen in the history of their entire house practiced it. How do you know that. About polygamy GRRM has told Quote There might have been a few later instances as well. I'd need to look that up... (or make that up, as the case might be). http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Targaryen_Polygamy 21 hours ago, TheBraveSerDavos said: Another thing is by making Jon this destined chosen hero who saves the day from a terrible evil and becomes a great King and savior would be doing the absolute last thing George RR Martin wants to do. Not true. After all isn't this what he is doing with Dany and her Slaver's Bay campaign? Also how do you know what GRRM wants to do? 21 hours ago, TheBraveSerDavos said: Sorry for the rant. I'm just getting sick of how everyone has to be a secret Targaryen and a lot of R+L=J fans act like how it means Jon Snow is going to become a Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter style chosen one. Anyhow, what are your all thoughts on the situation? Being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna has nothing to do with him being the hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 10 hours ago, House Beaudreau said: It seems just as likely to me that Dany is the child of Rhagar and Lyanna Because every child is born almost nine months after the death of his mother. Just as likely right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Estermont Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 The fact that you think it's true makes you a supporter, i am as well , that doesnt mean however that you have to jump to baseless conclusions with the theory as many do. Keep in mind not all who have read the books are aware of theory , and its reveal if its true will be a shock for them, most people here just take it for fact though so its only natural that they ll speculate. I can see your point that Jons parentage will be of little importance but everyone is entitled to an opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 2 minutes ago, Lord Estermont said: The fact that you think it's true makes you a supporter That isn't true. You can believe that something is right but you don't like it. I for example believe that Jon is the trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna but I hate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Estermont Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said: That isn't true. You can believe that something is right but you don't like it. I for example believe that Jon is the trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna but I hate it. I meant it in the way that you support the theory being true, if someone asked you who were Jons parents you would say R+L, it has nothing to do with your personal preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 9 minutes ago, Lord Estermont said: I meant it in the way that you support the theory being true, if someone asked you who were Jons parents you would say R+L, it has nothing to do with your personal preference. Actually it doesn't. You be can be impartial and look at the clues without actually like them. I personally hate R+L=J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 13 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said: I personally hate R+L=J and the people who believe it. Can I ask you why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MostlyMoody Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 17 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: Actually it doesn't. You be can be impartial and look at the clues without actually like them. Can I ask you why do you hate the R+L=J theory but still think its true? Emphasis on why you hate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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