What annoys me about R+L=J supporters

[TheBraveSerDavos]

So first off I just wanna say that I think R+L=J is probably true. Personally I'm not a huge fan of it because of how the fan base treats it.

George RR Martin prides himself on defying traditional fantasy tropes and sterotypes. He does everything he can to make his story morally grey with no true good guys or bad guys. There isn't such a thing as a fairy tale ending in ASOIF. Yet a bunch of R+L=J fans seem to forget this.

What annoys me is when I see fans trying to explain how Jon is the true king and that  Rhaeger secretly married Lyanna and now he is going to ride dragons and single handedly defeat all the wight walkers and then marry daenerys and they all live happily ever after under the reign of King Jon Targaryen. 

First off, anyone who believes Rhaeger married Lyanna in secret to ensure they would have a legitimate heir is just wishful thinking. The Targaryan polygamy precedent doesn't really count since one Targaryen in the history of their entire house practiced it. Another thing is by making Jon this destined chosen hero who saves the day from a terrible evil and becomes a great King and savior would be doing the absolute last thing George RR Martin wants to do.

And that's creating a stereotypical fantasy hero who defies the odds and saves the day to live happily ever after.

Sorry for the rant. I'm just getting sick of how everyone has to be a secret Targaryen and a lot of R+L=J fans act like how it means Jon Snow is going to become a Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter style chosen one. Anyhow, what are your all thoughts on the situation?

[Elisabetta Duò]

21 hours ago, TheBraveSerDavos said:

So first off I just wanna say that I think R+L=J is probably true. Personally I'm not a huge fan of it because of how the fan base treats it.

George RR Martin prides himself on defying traditional fantasy tropes and sterotypes. He does everything he can to make his story morally grey with no true good guys or bad guys. There isn't such a thing as a fairy tale ending in ASOIF. Yet a bunch of R+L=J fans seem to forget this.

What annoys me is when I see fans trying to explain how Jon is the true king and that  Rhaeger secretly married Lyanna and now he is going to ride dragons and single handedly defeat all the wight walkers and then marry daenerys and they all live happily ever after under the reign of King Jon Targaryen. 

First off, anyone who believes Rhaeger married Lyanna in secret to ensure they would have a legitimate heir is just wishful thinking. The Targaryan polygamy precedent doesn't really count since one Targaryen in the history of their entire house practiced it. Another thing is by making Jon this destined chosen hero who saves the day from a terrible evil and becomes a great King and savior would be doing the absolute last thing George RR Martin wants to do.

And that's creating a stereotypical fantasy hero who defies the odds and saves the day to live happily ever after.

Sorry for the rant. I'm just getting sick of how everyone has to be a secret Targaryen and a lot of R+L=J fans act like how it means Jon Snow is going to become a Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter style chosen one. Anyhow, what are your all thoughts on the situation?

I agree that R+L=J 99% true and the fanfictions people make up about its consequences are annoying (only, t Harry Potter was the chosen one as you said but he wasn't a 100% stereotyped hero.. the two grey gigantic characters in the series of course are Dumbledore and Snape but Harry wasn't too much stereotyped, especially if you think he was the hero of a series that initially was meant for kids … he made loads of mistakes as a teen ager, one indirectly resulting in his godgather's death).

[Neolaina]

You're a fan of the theory, not its' proponents. Fine.

For me, R+L=J is simple. Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. That's all I care about. Don't care how that changes Jon's life in the future, or how his parents ended up together, or ramifications for the ending. I've pretty much ignored most of the threads that either bring it up, or try to derail it. It had long been established as a theory before I even touched the books

Pretty simple for me, really.

[Sandor Is Kane]

I wouldn't take issue with Jon being a legitimate Targaryen as long as it made sense within the narrative.

A lot of fans seem to believe that the point of the series is simply to invert tropes, but I think that would be just as predictable in its own right.

[aryagonnakill#2]

R+L=J is separate from any other theories about what Jon will do, or who else is a hidden Targ.  It sounds like your not upset about R+L=J but those other theories.

[Philokles]

I don't think Jon's ancestry will result in him being the saviour of the world or guarantee him an ignominious death. Being a Targaryen will have consequences, both positive and negative, for certain - but these will be for proper narrative reasons. I think fAegon is there to show that the perception of being a Targ is more important than the reality.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

43 minutes ago, TheBraveSerDavos said:

So first off I just wanna say that I think R+L=J is probably true. Personally I'm not a huge fan of it because of how the fan base treats it.

George RR Martin prides himself on defying traditional fantasy tropes and sterotypes. He does everything he can to make his story morally grey with no true good guys or bad guys. There isn't such a thing as a fairy tale ending in ASOIF. Yet a bunch of R+L=J fans seem to forget this.

What annoys me is when I see fans trying to explain how Jon is the true king and that  Rhaeger secretly married Lyanna and now he is going to ride dragons and single handedly defeat all the wight walkers and then marry daenerys and they all live happily ever after under the reign of King Jon Targaryen. 

First off, anyone who believes Rhaeger married Lyanna in secret to ensure they would have a legitimate heir is just wishful thinking.

If you claim that's just "wishful thinking", then you're obviously unfamiliar with the rationale and the evidence behind it. You pass a very unreserved judgement with only marginal knowledge of the matter. Now, that's what's really annoying. (For details, look into any given "R+L=J" thread. It is decidedly not just a wishful thinking. And GRRM is not really such a great defier of tropes as people like to paint him).

[Ygrain]

Fairy tale? I don't know of fairy tales where the princess dies in the tower and her prince loses the battle and his life, as well. As for Jon as a prince in hiding, he may never ascend the throne, and if he does, it is highly unlikely that he will live happily ever after, and these are not the ways fairy tales go, either. Some people perhaps think that Jon will have the roses and sunshine, but most definitely don't.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Please distinguish between R+L=J itself, that marriage being legally viable, and any result of it.

 Personally, I consider all kinds of "King Jon Targaryen, bridergroom of his aunt etc. etc." theories to be ultimately wrong as well (seriously, Jon is a Stark, his genetic donor matters not one whiff compared to ~20 years of live since), but that doesn't change what happened between Harrenhal and the ToJ.

Of course nobody would believe it, nor does it matter to the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch.

[Makk]

I think they were probably married or the Kingsguard would not have been there. I don't think it will necessarily matter however, it is a struggle to see who would believe it and then just be willing to give up the throne. It could end up subverting tropes by making him the king that never was.

[Greymoon]

50 minutes ago, TheBraveSerDavos said:

So first off I just wanna say that I think R+L=J is probably true. Personally I'm not a huge fan of it because of how the fan base treats it.

snip

Sorry for the rant. I'm just getting sick of how everyone has to be a secret Targaryen and a lot of R+L=J fans act like how it means Jon Snow is going to become a Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter style chosen one. Anyhow, what are your all thoughts on the situation?

Well.... not all R+L = J supporters think that...and one secret Targaryen is quite enough. My thoughts on the subject:

1) A stereotypical fantasy hero...?  impossible at this point I say. Jon in DwD was not a stereotypical fantasy hero... The new/resurected Jon Snow will be even less willing to compromise and will probably break his vows in more ways than one. He will be a hero (to some of us), but certainly not a "stereotypical" hero.

2) He will single-handily defeat the white walkers....? Nope. Single-handily with the help of an army, of tree-boy Bran, of wolves, of Black Crows, of wildlings... and yes, even with the help of dragons and mercenaries. Jon might lead a charge from time to time...

3) He marries Dany...? Absolutely not. Dany and Jon will be at each other’s throat after Dany kills Jon's "brother" the good King "Aegon" (so, other readers will hate Jon because they'll want Dany to prevail...see? no stereotypical hero.)

4) He is the true King...? Yes, he is. Does it matter? Absolutely not. R+L probably did marry. How will he prove it? He won't, but he’ll find comfort in knowing that. He'll have to rely on others "legitimizing" his claim, and he'll have to win the throne for himself... or die trying. I predict he'll be crowned post-mortem.

5) He'll ride a dragon...? Certainly. What's the point of R+L otherwise? I also think fAegon will ride a dragon. And Brown Ben Plumm for a while, too. Basically, having a drop of dragon blood doesn't make Jon that special...

(having dragon blood + the ability to warg + the near-death experience might make him special though…)

6) He is the prince that was promised...?  Yes. If the PtwP is simply a Prince born from Rhaella's and Aerys' line, and if he is linked to a promise... then Jon fits the job description. He comes from the right line and is linked to a promise: "promise me Ned" . lol. Nothing special. I think this is the sort of irony GRRM goes for. Generations of Targaryens have looked for some grand saviour, when in truth the prophecy of the "promised Prince" is very, very, literal.

[Rob Storm]

I've kind of felt that the whole series has been disproving the "True King" concept.  For 4 and a half books there has been illegitimate rulers on the thrones.  You have to take it.  Jon is the son of someone in line for the throne and that is it.  He has built and needs to continue to build his own destiny.  

[Dorian Martell]

3 hours ago, TheBraveSerDavos said:

So first off I just wanna say that I think R+L=J is probably true. Personally I'm not a huge fan of it because of how the fan base treats it.

George RR Martin prides himself on defying traditional fantasy tropes and sterotypes. He does everything he can to make his story morally grey with no true good guys or bad guys. There isn't such a thing as a fairy tale ending in ASOIF. Yet a bunch of R+L=J fans seem to forget this.

What annoys me is when I see fans trying to explain how Jon is the true king and that  Rhaeger secretly married Lyanna and now he is going to ride dragons and single handedly defeat all the wight walkers and then marry daenerys and they all live happily ever after under the reign of King Jon Targaryen. 

First off, anyone who believes Rhaeger married Lyanna in secret to ensure they would have a legitimate heir is just wishful thinking. The Targaryan polygamy precedent doesn't really count since one Targaryen in the history of their entire house practiced it. Another thing is by making Jon this destined chosen hero who saves the day from a terrible evil and becomes a great King and savior would be doing the absolute last thing George RR Martin wants to do.

And that's creating a stereotypical fantasy hero who defies the odds and saves the day to live happily ever after.

Sorry for the rant. I'm just getting sick of how everyone has to be a secret Targaryen and a lot of R+L=J fans act like how it means Jon Snow is going to become a Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter style chosen one. Anyhow, what are your all thoughts on the situation?

you don't like the fans. Cool, but who are you to say how the author is going to write his book? He already tanked some major hero tropes by having the honorable hero day try to avenge his friend and die trying, then the son dies trying to avenge his father. There is no good nor evil, just shades of grey.  Good people do bad things, bad people do good things.  Will you hate the books if Jon becomes a hero? If he becomes the king, marries Dany and fathers an heir? 

[MostlyMoody]

32 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

you don't like the fans. Cool, but who are you to say how the author is going to write his book? He already tanked some major hero tropes by having the honorable hero day try to avenge his friend and die trying, then the son dies trying to avenge his father. There is no good nor evil, just shades of grey.  Good people do bad things, bad people do good things.  Will you hate the books if Jon becomes a hero? If he becomes the king, marries Dany and fathers an heir? 

I probably would 'hate' that yes, but luckily it will never happen. And isn't everyone assuming how George will write his books when they discuss theories?

[Florina Laufeyson]

I honestly think the fandom needs to stop with this "GRRM defies all the tropes ever" BS, because thats what it is. BS. GRRM writes the story as he goes, and deconstructions happen. But a huge amount of things arent put into place to defy any tropes. They are put there because George deems them to make sense. 

As for Jon, OP, those are some pretty big blanket statements. A huge number of the book reading fanbase does not think hes going to live happily ever after and destroy the Others himself and get all the things. The PtwP and Azor Ahai (because i think Bran is the Last Hero reborn) are likely more than one person. Jon isnt the sort of person who'd just be totally down with planting arse on the Iron Throne. He also isnt exactly the most squeaky clean character in the story. (guys like Brienne and Davos are actually more "good" than Jon.) Really, most people understand this. 

[Bright Blue Eyes]

1 hour ago, Florina Laufeyson said:

I honestly think the fandom needs to stop with this "GRRM defies all the tropes ever" BS, because thats what it is. BS. GRRM writes the story as he goes, and deconstructions happen. But a huge amount of things arent put into place to defy any tropes. They are put there because George deems them to make sense.

Indeed, GRRM adheres to tropes instead of defying them. He just uses the classical tropes, from Shakespeare to modern drama or thrillers, instead of the purely fantasy subset created by cheap writers since the LotR-fueled fantasy sell-out.

 

For example:

Ned Stark dying was a given ever since his children featured prominently. His continued presence would have strangled their storylines in the crib.

Robb Stark loosing was also a given, with him being a non-PoV barely covered by any PoVs. He was just not important to the story.

Those are two of the most-cited examples of GRRM defying tropes, but he has been telegraphing that development since the fourth, respectively the tenth, chapter.

[Joey Crows]

31 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Indeed, GRRM adheres to tropes instead of defying them. He just uses the classical tropes, from Shakespeare to modern drama or thrillers, instead of the purely fantasy subset created by cheap writers since the LotR-fueled fantasy sell-out.

 

For example:

Ned Stark dying was a given ever since his children featured prominently. His continued presence would have strangled their storylines in the crib.

Robb Stark loosing was also a given, with him being a non-PoV barely covered by any PoVs. He was just not important to the story.

Those are two of the most-cited examples of GRRM defying tropes, but he has been telegraphing that development since the fourth, respectively the tenth, chapter.

Agreed. He definitely uses classical literary tropes, which in turn are observations on the nature of humanity and the unpredictability of emotion and action. Fantasy genre tropes have come to be a euphemism for predictable writing. I've read other Fantasy series, some that I really enjoy, but I always find them wanting when it comes to pure writing. ASOIAF has taken what we've thought for 60 years to be "the way fantasy stories work" and turned that on it's head. At the end of the day, it is simply excellent writing.

[Nights Kings Queen]

Relax, at the end of the day they're just theories. Plus there's a lot of time to kill before winds, so it's fun to speculate.

Like I said, just theories, and trust me, a lot of them will be debunked in the upcoming books (as many have been already).

[DarkerStar]

R+L=J isn't treated as a theory though. People want to treat it as canon. I partially agree with the OP. I understand the theory. I just don't it to be true. I don't think Jon needs to be dragon Jesus to be incredibly important to the story. He has proven himself to be remarkable parentage be damned. Plus I like the idea of Jon being Ned's son.

[StarkofWinterfell]

I personally hate R+L=J and the people who believe it.