What annoys me about R+L=J supporters

[Peter Haroski]

13 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

I personally hate R+L=J and the people who believe it.

That seems quite irrational

[MostlyMoody]

7 minutes ago, Peter Haroski said:

That seems quite irrational

Calm down there Spock.

[BalerionTheCat]

I believe 100% in R+L=J. But it doesn't mean I believe in all the crap you associate with it.

To be Rhaegar's son doesn't mean he is legitimate to rule, to decide for other people's lives. And I don't mean here marriage legitimacy.The Free Folk would tell you that. And many Jon supporters absolutely hate the idea of Jon and Daenerys marry and rule together. Because they are in total opposition regarding who serves who and free will.

[atonement]

I also don't like R+L=J and I have my reasons.

First, it is too obvious. Just imagine, a girl gets kidnapped by a Prince. Men of her family went to save her. All of them died, only one come back with a child who exactly look like the kidnapped girl (GRRM never wrote it but if A=B and B=C then it means A=C), and despite of the likelihood, none of the Westerosis think about it. "May be it is not his son, May be it is her sister's". If we look at real life, people like to gossip about everything then how come no one ever raises a finger about this? May be because it is just a red herring for the readers.

Second, Jon being a Targ and marrying Dany is totally puke-worthy as they will be aunt and nephew ( and don't say the T-word on this matter). The mindset which is fueling R+L=J is totally idealistic. 'Wow, Dragons will come back. Wow, Targaryens will come back. Wow, there is that underdog guy who noone cares about. He must be the secret Targ.' (It is more like Ron Weasely cooking up a theory just after Hermione read to him ASOIAF) I want to ask why is it so important to have a Targaryen on Iron Throne? Jon can be a Stark and still be TPTWP and even then if he marries Dany (although I don't want it ) then what will be damaged? Why is it so necessary to prove that John is a Targaryen? No one becomes a hero by bloodline. You have to earn it.

Third, Jon is the strongest candidate for TPTWP, along with Dany and for the same reason GRRM will not pair them together.

Fourth, what is the thing John wanted most in his life? The answer is neither King's Landing nor Iron Throne. The answer is Winterfell. He always dreamed about being the Lord of Winterfell. The whole point of having a POV character in a novel is to resolve his internal conflict and bring a salvation to his restless soul. I really like the 'Jon' GRRM wrote because he is a guy who is happy with small things and, just like Ned, in that contention lies his greatness. I really like Jon as a son of Ned Stark who never ask for more than what he thinks he deserves.

Fifth, I really don't like the idea of Rhaegar and Lyanna coupling together. I mean the whole kingdom was getting torn apart. For what? So that the fucking dragons (which did not exist at that time) can have three fucking heads. If there is one thing about Rhaegar, he was not delusional. Kidnapping a girl just to pop out a son does not sound like Rhaegar. You can twist stories as much as you want but you cannot twist character of a person. Honorable people don't become dishonorable just because they are in love.

I have many other points to write but getting sleepy so will write the next part tomorrow.

[Guest]

What if Lyanna went willingly?  More likely, IMHO.

Also, I think R+L=J+M is the cool theory, we'll see if it happens.

[Duncan I Targaryen]

I'm beginning to believe more and more that the real equation here is R+L = J+M now that I realize that although Ned and Howland Reed were supposed to be the best of friends they never visited one another or had much interaction since the Tower of Joy.

[JonisHenryTudor]

On 5/29/2016 at 0:49 PM, TheBraveSerDavos said:

 

First off, anyone who believes Rhaeger married Lyanna in secret to ensure they would have a legitimate heir is just wishful thinking.

No, not really. There is a medieval precedent for this. Does it mean that it did happen? No. But to suggest it could not is just wishful thinking. 

On 5/29/2016 at 1:47 PM, Ygrain said:

Fairy tale? I don't know of fairy tales where the princess dies in the tower and her prince loses the battle and his life, as well. As for Jon as a prince in hiding, he may never ascend the throne, and if he does, it is highly unlikely that he will live happily ever after, and these are not the ways fairy tales go, either. Some people perhaps think that Jon will have the roses and sunshine, but most definitely don't.

If offered, I can see him trying to cast the throne off onto someone else. Say Gendry? If he does survive, I can see him "retiring to a countryside farm", at least wanting to. 

 

As a Jon fan, I would rather him just be a Stark. 

[JonisHenryTudor]

10 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

No. Defintely not. We know when Dany was conceived, and is was shortly before Lyanna died. Unless she got a one-month-pregnancy, no way in hell. Nor does Brandon fit. Because that would necessitate a 24-month-pregnancy.

 

That's my problem with the R+L=J detractors: making up arguments already proven wrong twenty years ago.

Sigh....every single RLJ thread or something relating too it always seems to ignore these points.........Can the show or Martin just end this madness quickly.... 

[The Mighty Nutsaculus]

On 5/29/2016 at 3:49 PM, TheBraveSerDavos said:

So first off I just wanna say that I think R+L=J is probably true. Personally I'm not a huge fan of it because of how the fan base treats it.

George RR Martin prides himself on defying traditional fantasy tropes and sterotypes. He does everything he can to make his story morally grey with no true good guys or bad guys. There isn't such a thing as a fairy tale ending in ASOIF. Yet a bunch of R+L=J fans seem to forget this.

What annoys me is when I see fans trying to explain how Jon is the true king and that  Rhaeger secretly married Lyanna and now he is going to ride dragons and single handedly defeat all the wight walkers and then marry daenerys and they all live happily ever after under the reign of King Jon Targaryen. 

First off, anyone who believes Rhaeger married Lyanna in secret to ensure they would have a legitimate heir is just wishful thinking. The Targaryan polygamy precedent doesn't really count since one Targaryen in the history of their entire house practiced it. Another thing is by making Jon this destined chosen hero who saves the day from a terrible evil and becomes a great King and savior would be doing the absolute last thing George RR Martin wants to do.

And that's creating a stereotypical fantasy hero who defies the odds and saves the day to live happily ever after.

Sorry for the rant. I'm just getting sick of how everyone has to be a secret Targaryen and a lot of R+L=J fans act like how it means Jon Snow is going to become a Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter style chosen one. Anyhow, what are your all thoughts on the situation?

What annoys me is people who get annoyed at what other people think. If  you go through life getting annoyed at things you don't like, then you're going to be perpetually annoyed. And annoying to everyone around you. Who cares what people think about a work of fiction? That really bothers you? Have your views and let others have theirs. Yours is no more right than theirs. 

And George RR Martin does not pride himself on making his story morally grey with no true good guys or bad guys. There are plenty of bad guys. Cersei, Ramsay, and Joeffrey, all bad people. And not just "from a certain point of view". They're bad people. Especially Ramsay. 

People always try to be cool and say that they don't want to see the good guys win, but we all know that deep down they do. 

[JonisHenryTudor]

Just now, The Mighty Nutsaculus said:

What annoys me is people who get annoyed at what other people think. If  you go through life getting annoyed at things you don't like, then you're going to be perpetually annoyed. And annoying to everyone around you. Who cares what people think about a work of fiction? That really bothers you? Have your views and let others have theirs. Yours is no more right than theirs. 

And George RR Martin does not pride himself on making his story morally grey with no true good guys or bad guys. There are plenty of bad guys. Cersei, Ramsay, and Joeffrey, all bad people. And not just "from a certain point of view". They're bad people. Especially Ramsay. 

People always try to be cool and say that they don't want to see the good guys win, but we all know that deep down they do. 

Actually I would be fine with Jon joining the Night's King against Dany. That would be pretty rad. 

 

 

[The Mighty Nutsaculus]

Just now, JonisHenryTudor said:

Actually I would be fine with Jon joining the Night's King against Dany. That would be pretty rad. 

 

 

Hell yeah it would. And it's most likely going to happen.

[Lord Estermont]

10 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Actually it doesn't. You be can be impartial and look at the clues without actually like them.

You re not saying anything contradictory  to what i said.  If i ask someone with theory he/she supports about Jon's parentage, i am not asking which he/she likes best but the one he/she considers true, in his case R+L . Hope i cleared any confusion . I picked a poor choice of words in the first place , should not have mentioned it

[Greymoon]

On 29/05/2016 at 1:06 AM, Mooz said:

Yes, there a tons of fans who may have only dabbled in this lore who believe that. Those are the fandom. 

 

Allow me to tell you my observations about the different layers of fans:

1. The Unsullied: those who haven't read the books. Have merely seen the shows and/or partaken in facebook/twitter discussions.

2. The Uninitiated: those who have read the books (mayhaps even watched the show). Have a great regard into George's writing and lore. However have not delved deep into discussions on the canon. Have not read, and re-read, and checked-out theories on their own accord to see whether or not they make sense. They read a theory and believe it if it kinda makes sense.

3. The Inititated: those who have read the books, more than once (mayhaps even watched the show), have read many forum discussions, often pose their own well-sourced theories and discussions, read all of SSMs, watched interviews and live and breathe AsoIaF.

 

....You can't classify fans based on your own experience. I don't fit in any of those categories.

Newcomers often don't know the forum posters and their "politics" yet. Some have "heard" of a theory and think they already know everything about it - even though, what they know of the theory is only the one version that gets the most attention. This seems to be the case for the OP.... and I do not mean any offense by it, because it's normal not to know your way around when you start.

The problem is that the most people adhere to a certain version of a theory, the more that version seems to gain legitimacy in the eyes of fans. Which is stupid, because some posters are just "lounder" than others, are more active on the board, or have greater visibility... Does that mean that their theories are gospel? Absolutely not. If I keep repeating the same lie over and over, will it become any truer? Nope. It remains a lie, though I might start to forget what the truth was.

[princess_snow]

2 hours ago, Greymoon said:

....You can't classify fans based on your own experience. I don't fit in any of those categories.

Newcomers often don't know the forum posters and their "politics" yet. Some have "heard" of a theory and think they already know everything about it - even though, what they know of the theory is only the one version that gets the most attention. This seems to be the case for the OP.... and I do not mean any offense by it, because it's normal not to know your way around when you start.

The problem is that the most people adhere to a certain version of a theory, the more that version seems to gain legitimacy in the eyes of fans. Which is stupid, because some posters are just "lounder" than others, are more active on the board, or have greater visibility... Does that mean that their theories are gospel? Absolutely not. If I keep repeating the same lie over and over, will it become any truer? Nope. It remains a lie, though I might start to forget what the truth was.

I don't either.

Agree with the rest of your post too.

[the trees have eyes]

On 29/05/2016 at 9:19 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

R+L=J is separate from any other theories about what Jon will do, or who else is a hidden Targ.  It sounds like your not upset about R+L=J but those other theories.

On 29/05/2016 at 9:30 PM, Sept Sev said:

I don't think Jon's ancestry will result in him being the saviour of the world or guarantee him an ignominious death.

This so much.  I believe R+L=J is pretty well founded (the KG at the ToJ making clear their duty is to protect Lyanna+unborn child not Viserys being the clincher for me) but I do not believe this makes Jon Snow into Belgarion, Rand al'Thor or Aragorn or that this determines his destiny in any way.  His wole arc is about making choices not about fulfilling some pre-ordained role.

On 29/05/2016 at 9:39 PM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

If you claim that's just "wishful thinking", then you're obviously unfamiliar with the rationale and the evidence behind it. You pass a very unreserved judgement with only marginal knowledge of the matter. Now, that's what's really annoying. (For details, look into any given "R+L=J" thread. It is decidedly not just a wishful thinking. And GRRM is not really such a great defier of tropes as people like to paint him).

Indeed.  I like Jon's close relationships with Ned and his siblings and I don't like the idea that these relationships, though real in an emotional sense, are founded on a lie and that Jon isn't who he believes he is.  But I do think the hints point that way.

On 30/05/2016 at 3:13 AM, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Indeed, GRRM adheres to tropes instead of defying them. He just uses the classical tropes, from Shakespeare to modern drama or thrillers, instead of the purely fantasy subset created by cheap writers since the LotR-fueled fantasy sell-out.

For example:

Ned Stark dying was a given ever since his children featured prominently. His continued presence would have strangled their storylines in the crib.

Robb Stark loosing was also a given, with him being a non-PoV barely covered by any PoVs. He was just not important to the story.

Those are two of the most-cited examples of GRRM defying tropes, but he has been telegraphing that development since the fourth, respectively the tenth, chapter.

I have to say I was pretty shocked by both Ned's fall from grace and Robb's betrayal so I missed the telegraphing!  And I don't see that GRRM had to tell it this way to give the other characters room to grow.  Both Jon and Bran are started on their paths to the NW / 3EC while Ned is in the fullness of his power and both Sansa and Arya could have court / wild child roles as Joffrey's fiancee and Syrio's protege as they are set up in AGOT.

On 30/05/2016 at 5:32 AM, DarkerStar said:

R+L=J isn't treated as a theory though. People want to treat it as canon. I partially agree with the OP. I understand the theory. I just don't it to be true. I don't think Jon needs to be dragon Jesus to be incredibly important to the story. He has proven himself to be remarkable parentage be damned. Plus I like the idea of Jon being Ned's son.

But the point is you can believe R+L=J while not believing the dragon Jesus angle for a moment.  I'm perfectly happy with him having Ghost and never going near a dragon yet I believe in R+L=J.  It doesn't have to come with any messianic baggage.  And I also like the idea of Ned being Jon's father, I just find the hints and the secrecy indicate otherwise.

On 30/05/2016 at 8:33 AM, House Beaudreau said:

The One thing that always bothered me about the R+L = J is that I feel like there is really just circumstantial evidence that Jon is Rhagar's son. It seems just as likely to me that Dany is the child of Rhagar and Lyanna. It fits the timeline and we know that their are some real problems with Dany's memories of her childhood. While she was supposedly in Bravos as a child she clams that their was a lemon tree outside her window. she also says that their were sweet and hot smells. Bravos doesn't have any lemon trees. and it is also foggy and pretty much shit weather all the time in Bravos. It sounds more like she was in Dorne as a baby and young child. If you were born at the Tower of Joy and need to hide out for a time before you could cross the Narrow sea, Dorne seems like the best place to go. Ned could have just as easily promised Lyanna to keep Dany safe. Daenerys is historically the Targaryen name associated with Dorne. After the Tower of Joy Ned goes to Starfall to Return the famous family sword Dawn. In exchange for returning the sword, the Dayne's take the Baby Daenerys and vow to keep her safe, Ned also takes Brandon Starks bastard son Jon Snow home that Brandon Conceived with Ashara Dayne. Thats right R+L=D and BS+AD=J. Just as likely. But it should really be Jon Sand not Jon Snow since he was born at Starfall.        

Why all the secrecy and the damage to his marriage with Catelyn by pretending otherwise?  Why not just say Brandon fathered a child on a tavern wench and he is protecting his broher's child?  His honour isn't stained by this and he doesn't create a lie that dominates the early years of his marriage and shames the Tullys.

11 hours ago, atonement said:

I also don't like R+L=J and I have my reasons.

First, it is too obvious. Just imagine, a girl gets kidnapped by a Prince. Men of her family went to save her. All of them died, only one come back with a child who exactly look like the kidnapped girl (GRRM never wrote it but if A=B and B=C then it means A=C), and despite of the likelihood, none of the Westerosis think about it. "May be it is not his son, May be it is her sister's". If we look at real life, people like to gossip about everything then how come no one ever raises a finger about this? May be because it is just a red herring for the readers.

Second, Jon being a Targ and marrying Dany is totally puke-worthy as they will be aunt and nephew ( and don't say the T-word on this matter). The mindset which is fueling R+L=J is totally idealistic. 'Wow, Dragons will come back. Wow, Targaryens will come back. Wow, there is that underdog guy who noone cares about. He must be the secret Targ.' (It is more like Ron Weasely cooking up a theory just after Hermione read to him ASOIAF) I want to ask why is it so important to have a Targaryen on Iron Throne? Jon can be a Stark and still be TPTWP and even then if he marries Dany (although I don't want it ) then what will be damaged? Why is it so necessary to prove that John is a Targaryen? No one becomes a hero by bloodline. You have to earn it.

Third, Jon is the strongest candidate for TPTWP, along with Dany and for the same reason GRRM will not pair them together.

Fourth, what is the thing John wanted most in his life? The answer is neither King's Landing nor Iron Throne. The answer is Winterfell. He always dreamed about being the Lord of Winterfell. The whole point of having a POV character in a novel is to resolve his internal conflict and bring a salvation to his restless soul. I really like the 'Jon' GRRM wrote because he is a guy who is happy with small things and, just like Ned, in that contention lies his greatness. I really like Jon as a son of Ned Stark who never ask for more than what he thinks he deserves.

Fifth, I really don't like the idea of Rhaegar and Lyanna coupling together. I mean the whole kingdom was getting torn apart. For what? So that the fucking dragons (which did not exist at that time) can have three fucking heads. If there is one thing about Rhaegar, he was not delusional. Kidnapping a girl just to pop out a son does not sound like Rhaegar. You can twist stories as much as you want but you cannot twist character of a person. Honorable people don't become dishonorable just because they are in love.

I have many other points to write but getting sleepy so will write the next part tomorrow.

You're doing that thing of confusing Jon's parentage with his destiny.  Jon can be the son of Rahegar and Lyanna without this predetermining his actions and his path in life.  I mean it hasn't exactly done so to date.

[John Doe]

I agree, we don't even know for sure if Jon will find out about his heritage.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

9 hours ago, Lord Estermont said:

You re not saying anything contradictory  to what i said.  If i ask someone with theory he/she supports about Jon's parentage, i am not asking which he/she likes best but the one he/she considers true, in his case R+L . Hope i cleared any confusion . I picked a poor choice of words in the first place , should not have mentioned it

I see. It's my mistake

19 hours ago, Rupert Honeybun said:

Can I ask you why do you hate the R+L=J theory but still think its true? Emphasis on why you hate it.

Because the Targs are and were a bunch of mad, narcissistic tyrants and what Rhaegar and Lyanna did to the Realm.

 

 

[ASOIAF_Ali]

On 29 May 2016 at 8:49 PM, TheBraveSerDavos said:

So first off I just wanna say that I think R+L=J is probably true. Personally I'm not a huge fan of it because of how the fan base treats it.

George RR Martin prides himself on defying traditional fantasy tropes and sterotypes. He does everything he can to make his story morally grey with no true good guys or bad guys. There isn't such a thing as a fairy tale ending in ASOIF. Yet a bunch of R+L=J fans seem to forget this.

What annoys me is when I see fans trying to explain how Jon is the true king and that  Rhaeger secretly married Lyanna and now he is going to ride dragons and single handedly defeat all the wight walkers and then marry daenerys and they all live happily ever after under the reign of King Jon Targaryen. 

First off, anyone who believes Rhaeger married Lyanna in secret to ensure they would have a legitimate heir is just wishful thinking. The Targaryan polygamy precedent doesn't really count since one Targaryen in the history of their entire house practiced it. Another thing is by making Jon this destined chosen hero who saves the day from a terrible evil and becomes a great King and savior would be doing the absolute last thing George RR Martin wants to do.

And that's creating a stereotypical fantasy hero who defies the odds and saves the day to live happily ever after.

Sorry for the rant. I'm just getting sick of how everyone has to be a secret Targaryen and a lot of R+L=J fans act like how it means Jon Snow is going to become a Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter style chosen one. Anyhow, what are your all thoughts on the situation?

I agree with everything except the bolded part. I believe that GRRM is much less subversive of fantasy tropes than he is given credit for, but since I've had to accept R+L=J, I'm really hoping it's not the fluffy romance some fans seem to paint it as. Also, if Jon becomes 'the chosen one' that might be enough to make me quit the series. I have faith in GRRM to not just let Jon save the world as lesser series would though. 

[Leticia Stark]

Everytime I see people discussing about R+L=J, I try to imagine Jon's reaction to it.

I think he'll be completely devastated. He loves and respects Ned so much that the moment when he finds out that his "supposedly" beloved father lied to him his entire life will destroy him in the inside.

I would LOVE if Ned were truly Jon's father, but, for me, it's really hard NOT to see all the hints in the text, so I really think he's Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, I believe in this theory in particular. I don't know about the other theories tho, these will be proven only with time, like someone said, just because R+L=J may be true doesn't make him anymore special than Dany, Tyrion, Bran, etc. Anyone can fullfill the prophecies. 

[Neolaina]

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

This so much.  I believe R+L=J is pretty well founded (the KG at the ToJ making clear their duty is to protect Lyanna+unborn child not Viserys being the clincher for me) but I do not believe this makes Jon Snow into Belgarion, Rand al'Thor or Aragorn or that this determines his destiny in any way.  His wole arc is about making choices not about fulfilling some pre-ordained role.

Indeed.  I like Jon's close relationships with Ned and his siblings and I don't like the idea that these relationships, though real in an emotional sense, are founded on a lie and that Jon isn't who he believes he is.  But I do think the hints point that way.

I have to say I was pretty shocked by both Ned's fall from grace and Robb's betrayal so I missed the telegraphing!  And I don't see that GRRM had to tell it this way to give the other characters room to grow.  Both Jon and Bran are started on their paths to the NW / 3EC while Ned is in the fullness of his power and both Sansa and Arya could have court / wild child roles as Joffrey's fiancee and Syrio's protege as they are set up in AGOT.

But the point is you can believe R+L=J while not believing the dragon Jesus angle for a moment.  I'm perfectly happy with him having Ghost and never going near a dragon yet I believe in R+L=J.  It doesn't have to come with any messianic baggage.  And I also like the idea of Ned being Jon's father, I just find the hints and the secrecy indicate otherwise.

Why all the secrecy and the damage to his marriage with Catelyn by pretending otherwise?  Why not just say Brandon fathered a child on a tavern wench and he is protecting his broher's child?  His honour isn't stained by this and he doesn't create a lie that dominates the early years of his marriage and shames the Tullys.

You're doing that thing of confusing Jon's parentage with his destiny.  Jon can be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna without this predetermining his actions and his path in life.  I mean it hasn't exactly done so to date.

I like you, Trees. You rationalize things out just like I do. The italicized quote most of all.