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Joff's death


finger

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Two questions.

First. Would LF side the Tyrells in killing Joffrey without Tywin's leave? I don't think so.

Second. As JC McLannister says, Tywin had a benefit having Joff dead. I recall the conversation between Lannisters when Joffrey despised Tywin for hiding in the Rock while his father won a war. Tywin and Tyrion wondered if he'd be Robert II or Aerys III. Tywin doubted if it could be mended before Joff's coming of age, and I guess in that conversation he gave up. When he said that Joff needed a sharp lesson he was meant to order LF to go on with the murder he'd been preparing. He should know the Tyrells were wary about Joff and that the first harm he'd inflict to Magaery or the first slight to vane Mace could mean the end of that so much needed alliance.

And Grrm offers us some clues.

When talking to Jaime for the first time in KL, he tells him go take Tommen to Casterly Rock and teach him to be a Lannister. Before, he had scolded Cersei for not fulfilling her duties with Joffrey.

Just before being killed, talking about Tysha, he says he needed a sharp lesson, and we know what it meant.

When the calice was to be poisoned it's Tywin who calls Joffrey so that he left the cup unattended and anyone could put the poison in. The KG recognized that everybody was looking at the wedding pie and nobody cared for the calice.

Enough. The clues are there, but none is explicit. Of course, LF wouldn't confess Sansa that he was obeying Tywin's orders, that kind of made him a Lannister. Will we ever know?

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11 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

I agree, but also, if Tywin wanted Joffrey dead he would have had it done quietly. A hunting accident, a fall etc. He wouldn't have him murdered at what is supposed to be a demonstration of Lannister power and supremacy.

That too. 

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I always hated the Garlan did it. I just refuse to believe it.

Just like I refuse to believe Egg caused the Burning of Summerhall.

That's something I should make a list of things I refuse to believe. Haha Griff is Real...Nope, no he's not. Anyway I'm down derailing. But I love the aspect of how there could be so many guilty parties.

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That too. 

You're both somewhat right, and I've considered it myself. But it's not that easy.

Joffrey was a coward, who wouldn't expose himself to any danger. He hadn't been seen in tourneys, or whatever, he just shot hares. And the KG were always protecting him. Another chance to have him killed would have reduced the list of suspects. The poisoners choose a moment when nobody was aware of his cup and mostly anyone could have access to it. And it was Tywin who called him when the chalice was away. They could have put it at anybody's door. It went wrong because stupid Cersei insisted in blaming Tyrion.

Otoh, I wonder if Tyrion killed Tywin only for Tysha, or he had concluded that he was behind Joff's murder and still he was ready to let him pay for it.

As I told, there's no conclusive evidence, but...

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The only person who suggests the tyrells did it is LF and hen is not reliable.  It makes no sense for the Tyrells to kil Joffrey. After Margaery had one or two healthy sons, THEN it is time for Joffrey to go but not before.

Look towards those who hated the Tyrells or Margaery OR Tyrion.  Joffrey killed Joffrey, by accidenent in an attempt to kill Tyrion.

 

He plotted with LF, who aimed to blameSansa for killing Tyrion. Then LF would marry Sansa in exchange for her NOT losing her head. 

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On 6/11/2016 at 6:25 PM, Luddagain said:

Joffrey killed Joffrey,

I like that theory because Joffrey killing himself is deeply satisfying, but I don't see how he could have bungled it in the way he did.  Did he poison the wine (or pie) and then immediately forget?  And if the hairnet had nothing to do with it, how would Littlefinger know that it had been touched during the feast?  Or did Joffrey leave the arrangements to others and then not pay attention when he was being told the details?

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On 6/11/2016 at 3:33 AM, finger said:

Two questions.

First. Would LF side the Tyrells in killing Joffrey without Tywin's leave? I don't think so.

Second. As JC McLannister says, Tywin had a benefit having Joff dead. I recall the conversation between Lannisters when Joffrey despised Tywin for hiding in the Rock while his father won a war. Tywin and Tyrion wondered if he'd be Robert II or Aerys III. Tywin doubted if it could be mended before Joff's coming of age, and I guess in that conversation he gave up. When he said that Joff needed a sharp lesson he was meant to order LF to go on with the murder he'd been preparing. He should know the Tyrells were wary about Joff and that the first harm he'd inflict to Magaery or the first slight to vane Mace could mean the end of that so much needed alliance.

And Grrm offers us some clues.

When talking to Jaime for the first time in KL, he tells him go take Tommen to Casterly Rock and teach him to be a Lannister. Before, he had scolded Cersei for not fulfilling her duties with Joffrey.

Just before being killed, talking about Tysha, he says he needed a sharp lesson, and we know what it meant.

When the chalice was to be poisoned it's Tywin who calls Joffrey so that he left the cup unattended and anyone could put the poison in. The KG recognized that everybody was looking at the wedding pie and nobody cared for the chalice.

Enough. The clues are there, but none is explicit. Of course, LF wouldn't confess Sansa that he was obeying Tywin's orders, that kind of made him a Lannister. Will we ever know?

The more I read about the murder of Joffrey, the more I think GRRM has created a "Murder on the Orient Express" situation, where many people have motive, and possibly means and opportunity to kill the boy. The author's use of surprise plot twists and faceted details keep us guessing even after we've had a relatively logical and complete explanation that Littlefinger and Olenna cooperated in the murder, with the help of some witting or unwitting accomplices.

Or, for a different kind of Agatha Christie-type plot, this post outlines one of the more interesting, original ideas I've seen that lays out the case for the poisoned pie having been intended for a different target:

I share your suspicion of Tywin, although I don't see Tywin cooperating with Littlefinger. Tywin has used the Mountain and Ser Ilyn Payne and maybe his brother Kevan to do his dirtywork, but I think he would not trust Littlefinger's loyalty in a situation like this. If he confided his involvement in Littlefinger, Tywin would be too vulnerable.

The subtext points to the swords, in my opinion. Somehow Widow's Wail and/or Ilyn Payne's sword literally or figuratively caused or led to Joffrey's death. And I think Tywin orchestrated the murder, allowing others to believe they had done it and/or to take the blame. Maybe Varys warned Tywin of Littlefinger and Olenna's poison wine plot, and Tywin decided to allow them to proceed, knowing that he wanted Joffrey out of the way anyway. But he was taking his own steps, with only Ser Ilyn in on the plot. I hope we will get the full story behind Joff's death some day!

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Spoiler

Lord Mace Tyrell came forward to present his gift: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. "Seven faces for Your Grace's seven kingdoms," the bride's father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf.

"Margaery and I shall drink deep at the feast, good father." Joffrey lifted the chalice above his head, for everyone to admire.

"The damned thing's as tall as I am," Tyrion muttered in a low voice. "Half a chalice and Joff will be falling down drunk."

"Let the cups be filled!" Joffrey proclaimed, when the gods had been given their due. His cupbearer poured a whole flagon of dark Arbor red into the golden wedding chalice that Lord Tyrell had given him that morning. The king had to use both hands to lift it. "To my wife the queen!"

Margaery, of course, smiling sweetly as she and Joffrey shared a drink from the great seven-sided wedding chalice.

Joffrey was snorting wine from both nostrils. Gasping, he lurched to his feet, almost knocking over his tall two-handed chalice.

Joffrey was almost upon him, red-faced and staggering, wine slopping over the rim of the great golden wedding chalice he carried in both hands. "Your Grace," was all he had time to say before the king upended the chalice over his head.

"Bend down and pick up my chalice." Tyrion did as he was bid, but as he reached for the handle Joff kicked the chalice through his legs. "Pick it up! Are you as clumsy as you are ugly?" He had to crawl under the table to find the thing. "Good, now fill it with wine." He claimed a flagon from a serving girl and filled the goblet three-quarters full. "No, on your knees, dwarf." Kneeling, Tyrion raised up the heavy cup, wondering if he was about to get a second bath. But Joffrey took the wedding chalice one-handed, drank deep, and set it on the table.

The king's chalice was on the table where he'd left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin.

"My uncle hasn't eaten his pigeon pie." Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion's pie. "It's ill luck not to eat the pie," he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. "See, it's good." Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. "Dry, though. Needs washing down." Joff took a swallow of wine and coughed again, more violently. "

The chalice slipped from his hand and dark red wine went running across the dais.

But his eyes fell on the wedding chalice, forgotten on the floor. He went and scooped it up. There was still a half-inch of deep purple wine in the bottom of it. Tyrion considered it a moment, then poured it on the floor.

I think the poisoning of Joffrey will be debatable until the end of time unless Martin reveals it piecemeal like he did with the Bran murder attempt. Anyway, I used the search site to narrow it down a bit and make it easier for me to follow that chalice. SoS Sansa IV and Tyrion VIII book quotes are in the spoiler.

Drunk Joffrey dumps the wine over Tyrion’s head after the jousting dwarf fiasco. In text the wine is stated as “The wine washed down over his face in a red torrent.”

Joffrey states Tyrion will be his cupbearer. Joff tells Tyrion to get his approximately three foot tall double handled chalice off the floor. Tyrion flags down a serving girl and has her fill Joff’s chalice. Joff drinks and sets the chalice on the table.

Now it is time to go cut open the bird pie. After that Joff makes his way back to Tyrion and the chalice. Joff takes a swig and the wine runs purple down his chin. Joff digs into Tyrion’s pigeon pie. Starts his coughing. Drops his chalice and the dark red wine went running across the dais.

Yet when Tyrion picks up the chalice after Joff has died, “There is still a half-inch of deep purple wine in the bottom of it.

The wine is red, then purple, then red, then purple. If anyone can figure out why the wine keeps changing color I guess we’ll have our killer

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5 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

The wine is red, then purple, then red, then purple. If anyone can figure out why the wine keeps changing color I guess we’ll have our killer

Lighting?  So.. it was the sun.  House Martell.  Oberyn.  Case closed.

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14 hours ago, CJ McLannister said:

I like that theory because Joffrey killing himself is deeply satisfying, but I don't see how he could have bungled it in the way he did.  Did he poison the wine (or pie) and then immediately forget?  And if the hairnet had nothing to do with it, how would Littlefinger know that it had been touched during the feast?  Or did Joffrey leave the arrangements to others and then not pay attention when he was being told the details?

I suspect that someone got wind of Joffrey's plot and did a bit of a switch. Tywin or Varys spring to mind. Now Tywin would never become a kinslayer, but allowing Joffrey to kill himself is another matter.

So first let us assume that Shea was a spy for Tywin all along. She knew of the hair net.  Tywin may have suspected Sansa was going to kill Tyrion, but then worked out it was a plot between Joffrey and LF.  Perhaps the poison does not need to be ingested - Joffrey may have crushed the seed as he put it in the pie. perhaps someone switched "seeds"

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