Anyone else rooting against Dany?

[CJ McLannister]

Anyone who doesn't have a dragon is anti-dragon.  It's cheating.

[OldGimletEye]

2 minutes ago, Nissa said:

so @OldGimletEye are you anti-dragon? not accusing just curious  

The way I feel about dragons is the way I feel about having a machine gun or a bomber because in my view they are just basically weapons. If you are going to use those weapons, you better have a pretty solid reason to use them and use those weapons no more than the situation requires.

 

[Nissa]

1 minute ago, CJ McLannister said:

Anyone who doesn't have a dragon is anti-dragon.  It's cheating.

 

Just now, OldGimletEye said:

The way I feel about dragons is the way I feel about having a machine gun or a bomber because in my view they are just basically weapons. If you are going to use those weapons, you better have a pretty solid reason to use them and use those weapons no more than the situation requires.

 

Fair enough  

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Nissa said:

I particularly liked the above. Points for creativity.

Just to make sure you and I are on the same page I was talking about the way the character travels were written by the author. Not a character analysis of the persona of Dany.

This is my problem with the way the character is written; she only has a handful of people looking out her best interest. The rest want her dragons, dead or alive, for their own purpose.

Her power is the dragons. People fear the destruction that the dragons will reek or want the power they can attain by controlling the dragons.

It seems to me that the Dany, Martell, Aegon plotline could have taken place in and around the area of Pentos.

[CJ McLannister]

Just now, Clegane'sPup said:

It seems to me that the Dany, Martell, Aegon plotline could have taken place in and around the area of Pentos.

In theory, Dany's sojourn to the shithole of the world is supposed to make her a better leader/person.  I think most of the points against her in this thread suggest that that hasn't happened (yet).  She had to learn that ruling kind of sucks and that people are, for the most part, terrible.

[Nissa]

1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Just to make sure you and I are on the same page I was talking about the way the character travels were written by the author. Not a character analysis of the persona of Dany.

This is my problem with the way the character is written; she only has a handful of people looking out her best interest. The rest want her dragons, dead or alive, for their own purpose.

Her power is the dragons. People fear the destruction that the dragons will reek or want the power they can attain by controlling the dragons.

It seems to me that the Dany, Martell, Aegon plotline could have taken place in and around the area of Pentos.

Actually I was referring to the user who made the comment about being Rickon's queen that I had quoted. I thought it was really funny. Sorry for the confusion! As far as your question I can do both but I lean more towards character analysis and character arcs than story line. I agree with your statements though other than I believe the Slavers Bay story line was her practicing at 'ruling'. Even if it is a draggy I don't think it would have the same affect in Pentos in terms of her character arc. 

[BalerionTheCat]

19 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

If Robert Baratheon had managed to establish a stable monarchy, that more or less wasn't terrible, I'd be absolutely opposed to Dany trying to re-take the throne for the Targaryens. I'd be about as sympathetic to Dany's attempts to re-take the the throne as I would be to Imelda Marcos trying to become the dictator of the Phillipines after her husband was ousted from power.

But, as things stand now, things are a mess in Westeros and Robert Baratheon was not successful in establishing a stable dynasty that didn't produce tyrants. The upshot, accordingly, is that I'm willing to entertain or live with Dany taking the IT or becoming queen of Westeros. Cersei's regime clearly needs to go.

I'm willing to give her some leeway her. I think she might be able to pull off becoming queen, while dealing honestly and forthrightly with the legacy of RR.

Yes, Robert was bad, Cersei worse. And Stannis or the Tyrells, I don't know. But suppose Tommen comes to adulthood and is a fair ruler, or Aegon. Irrelevant of whether they are legitimate of their family. Do you think Daenerys would be legitimate to reclaim the IT? Supposing it will cost at least one innocent life.

What is the meaning of "belonging to me". Claiming the property of the IT? Is not akin to claiming the property of the inhabitants?

[MtnLion]

4 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Would people on this forum please post show stuff in spoiler tags? I know it's difficult, going through all that effort, but no doubt some people on here haven't watched the show and would like to avoid spoilers for as long as possible.

Show stuff, inside spoilers or not, in this forum is supposed to get an insta-ban. 

[WSmith84]

11 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

Show stuff, inside spoilers or not, in this forum is supposed to get an insta-ban. 

I thought that was only for season 6 stuff? Fair enough either way.

[MtnLion]

1 minute ago, WSmith84 said:

I thought that was only for season 6 stuff? Fair enough either way.

What I noticed was season six stuff, maybe you referred to something else.  I don't think that the admins qualified the season, though it would make sense season six stuff is way beyond the books. 

[butterbumps!]

[mod]  please refrain from ANY discussion of the show in this forum.  You're more than welcome to discuss both book & show over in the show section.   [/mod]

5 hours ago, CJ McLannister said:

In theory, Dany's sojourn to the shithole of the world is supposed to make her a better leader/person.  I think most of the points against her in this thread suggest that that hasn't happened (yet).  She had to learn that ruling kind of sucks and that people are, for the most part, terrible.

Do you mean a "leader" or a "ruler"?    To be honest, I don't think this sojourn to Slaver's Bay is supposed to make her a better ruler, and I agree it's often the expectation that she'd become a better ruler that causes a lot of reader disgust with her.   I actually think it's the opposite-- that this "ruling" jaunt shows us that she's not really so much a ruler as much as she is an inspiring leader better suited to the Dothraki model of power than queenship-- more like a revolutionary / agent of change rather than a static, stable administrator.  

I'm not rooting for her to rule anything.  I am, however, looking forward to how she might disrupt (so sick of that word) the status quo and push some sort of social change.

[OldGimletEye]

17 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Yes, Robert was bad, Cersei worse. And Stannis or the Tyrells, I don't know. But suppose Tommen comes to adulthood and is a fair ruler, or Aegon. Irrelevant of whether they are legitimate of their family. Do you think Daenerys would be legitimate to reclaim the IT? Supposing it will cost at least one innocent life.

What is the meaning of "belonging to me". Claiming the property of the IT? Is not akin to claiming the property of the inhabitants?

Well certainly if Tommen was actually ruling and ruling fairly decently, or even somewhat below average, I'd be totally opposed to Dany re-taking the throne.

As far as Aegon goes, I don't think he'll have the chance to bring any type of stability to Westeros before Dany shows up. And I don't know what Aegon's attitude towards RR will be. With Jon Con at his side, it could actually even be worse than what Dany ends up believing about it.

Certainly, I'm no fan of the argument that Dany deserves the throne because it belongs to the Targs and will always belong to the Targs, no matter what. I think that line of argument is nothing but intellectual trash. I have nothing but contempt for it. It's way too simplistic in my view.

Similarly assertions that Dany "is just like the Starks" is another argument that so mind numbingly dumb I think I got brain damage from reading it. In fact, I'm thinking about suing from having to read it.

But, the fact of the matter is that it's not likely to be the situation that Tommen will get the chance to rule Westeros. The facts on the ground, as they stand now, and what they will likely be in the future is that Cersei will be running things. And Cersei needs to go.

The upshot here is that, in my view, the specific facts here will matter.

As far as innocents dying. They always do in war. Even if the war is justified in some sense. And that's a good reason why people need to think carefully before starting them. I think wars are terrible and should be avoided, but I'm not a peace at any price person either.

I don't think people like Aerys, Ramsay, Joffrey and Cersei should be able to act like assholes, but then be able to hide behind children and say, "You can't touch me because you'll hurt the children!"

As far as Dany's "right" to rule, I'm not looking here for 100% intellectual perfection on her part. I'm looking for "good enough". In my view "good enough" is 1) She tosses Cersei aside, 2) Has a reasonable chance of bringing peace and stability to Westeros, and 3) Completely disowns and disavows Aerys's actions as being inappropriate and out of bounds. In other words, she disowns the Joffrey Baratheon view of monarchy.

The thing is here is I'm not a fan of monarchy for obvious reasons. But, all the characters in story basically believe in monarchy. There isn't anybody in the story that really believes in some other system of government or fighting to change things completely. So your kind of stuck thinking about these issues in that context. The monarch holds authority in Westeros because as Varys says, "that's what men believe." Yeah, it would be nice if beliefs evolved in Westeros to support popular democracy, but that's not going to happen. I think it would be too much of a stretch to believe something like that would happen in Westeros anyway. Though I do believe the idea that monarchs shouldn't be able to do as they please is something that can take hold in Westeros.

[Radu Alex]

Daenerys Targaryen ruling would mean the end of the feudal monarchy and the beginning of the absolutist rule of a Queen. There are hints in both the books and the show that she is out to destroy the feudal system. Do I root for her? Not entirely! 

I believe her story has been developed in a very interesting manner by GRRM. She came from nothing, rose, became very powerful and is out to take it all. The issue here is I don't see GRRM writing this hero story for children where the good princess destroys all her enemies and wins the throne. This is why I think Daenerys will loose or die in Westeros, no matter what.

Nor do I believe she will be the savior-like hero that will defeat the Others. It's just not GRRM's way. I rather think that in her case the road to hell is paved with good intentions and I believe that the more good she tries to do the more harm will come out of it, at least in the short run.

One thing is clear thou - if she tries to dismantle the feudal system in one go, the only way to do that is to slaughter every noble family there is. And that would make her a genocidal maniac. 

I for one am rooting for Tommen. He is portrayed as the kind of king that would, if well counseled, implement a lot of positive reforms. I do not see Westeros becoming a fully centralized state, nor do I see the feudal system vanishing. But I do see major changes on their way. In this regard, the only two things Daenerys could bring are either saving from the Others [maybe - but I am skeptical] or the destruction that could bring about major changes after she is defeated.

[RoamingRonin]

On 5/30/2016 at 9:18 AM, Lord Vance II said:

First off, let's look at Dany's possible invasion force. It consists of eunick (sp?) slave soldiers (not slaves anymore but what difference does that make to Westerosi?), PROBABLY Dothraki, Ironborn and Essosi mercenaries. Its like a whos-who of people who would terrify the Westerosi smallfolk..not to mention the dragons. What leader would unleash Dothraki on her own people? 

Speaking of the smallfolk, Dany has no upside for them. As has been said many times in the books, smallfolk don't really give a shit who is on the throne as long as their crops come in and their children have a future. There are no chains to break, they're as free as peasants can be. All Dany has to offer is another round of fire and blood, more lost crops, more dead sons and fathers, more raped mothers and daughters. I think Dany expects to smallfolk to flock to her...and I think "the dragon" will be awakened when they don't like they did in Slaves Bay. 

I don't think any of the greathouses would bend the knee to Dany, the daughter of the Mad King who has made her goal their demise. Could the combined might of Westeros stop Dany and her army? Maybe (I hope so) but probably not. Though dragons aren't quite as terrifying as they were during Aegon's Conquest because Dany's aren't nearly as large and people now know that they can be killed. 

Add to that the fact that she has proved to be a terrible ruler. Slavers bay is a disaster because of her. Her obsession with stamping out slavers is certainly honorable, but with no alternative shes basically freeing slaves to a life of squalor and even further marginalization. The masters still have all the property, all the wealth, all the power. The smallfolk have freedom and not much else. Her cities are rife with crime and injustice. The situation is different in Westeros, but if she can't keep one city in order how could she rule a massive continent without just burning all who oppose her (Aerys style)

The best hope for Westeros is if Aegon (who I believe is the real deal) is able to unite Westeros (or at least southern Westeros) against her and attack her as she tries to land through the dragon fire. But at this point, with the countryside trying to recover from the War of 5 Kings, a bad winter coming and the dead along with it, Dany is the last think Westeros needs. Though it plays into my belief that the "winner" of the Game of Thrones will have a hollow victory, dominion over a pile of ash. 

(I know she will most likely be key to the defeat of the Others, and it might win her big points, but she would have to wait until the North was totally overrun for people in the south to really care since they believe its a bunch of Northern nonsense anyways.

Thoughts?

The hell...

The alternative slavery is employment. The great masters don't want to pay the people that work for them. Dany tried to continue trading other resources in the region but Xaro Xhoan Daxos and others blocked her efforts. Slaver's Bay is a mess at the moment but what look at Westeros in comparison.

Chaos to get rid of slavery is a lot more admirable than chaos because of vengeance, greed and misguided prophecy.

It seems as if a lot of people on this forum believe the Dothraki are a completely different species and not human. They're no different than any other army. I prefer them to the Golden Company, to be quite honest.

There might not be any chains to break in Westeros (a strawman argument, if ever was one) but there is corruption and misrule. Dany will be the scourging fire that cleanses the realm!

And If you think Aegon is the best hope for Westeros then I have a bridge to sell you in Valyria. His loyal councilors are Varys and Illyrio Mopatis who cannot be trusted. Men in the Golden Company want to claim lands and castles they have no right to.

Could the combined power of Westeros stop Dany? Maybe you should be worried about them stopping the Others.

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

The hell...

The alternative slavery is employment. The great masters don't want to pay the people that work for them. Dany tried to continue trading other resources in the region but Xaro Xhoan Daxos and others blocked her efforts. Slaver's Bay is a mess at the moment but what look at Westeros in comparison.

Chaos to get rid of slavery is a lot more admirable than chaos because of vengeance, greed and misguided prophecy.

It seems as if a lot of people on this forum believe the Dothraki are a completely different species and not human. They're no different than any other army. I prefer them to the Golden Company, to be quite honest.

There might not be any chains to break in Westeros (a strawman argument, if ever was one) but there is corruption and misrule. Dany will be the scourging fire that cleanses the realm!

 And If you think Aegon is the best hope for Westeros then I have a bridge to sell you in Valyria. His loyal councilors are Varys and Illyrio Mopatis. Could the combined power of Westeros stop Dany? Maybe you should be worried about them stopping the Others.

Dany will be coming to Westeros with (in Cicero's phrase) "the army of the Underworld".  Dothraki, Ironborn, sellswords, together with any bankrupt or dispossessed noblemen who see a chance to profit from a change of government.

Given the existential threat that the Others will present, that may still be good thing, but the odds have to be against her offering a better form of government.

[W1NT3RF3LL]

I am rooting against her all the way.  Just because I think she is well, meh.  I don't think she is a good ruler, doesn't really use great judgement, and her priorities are so off the grid its not funny.  She is also completely useless without her Dragons, whom she can't even tame at this point.  On top of all of that, she doesn't seem to be a person that is willing to compromise and really in order to rule in Westeros she is going to have to do some compromising.  To me she is a female Stannis who has Dragons.

[Cas Stark]

Count me in as rooting against her.  

But I doubt it matters, she will almost certainly roll into Westeros with her giant army of plot gifts and the dragons that she so brutally neglected, ready to die for her and save the day in the battle against the Others.

[Lord Vance II]

2 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

And If you think Aegon is the best hope for Westeros then I have a bridge to sell you in Valyria. His loyal councilors are Varys and Illyrio Mopatis who cannot be trusted. Men in the Golden Company want to claim lands and castles they have no right to.

 

Illyrio is a question mark, but I can't think of a better councilor than Varys. He genuinely cares about the realm and he fears Dany's onslaught for the same reason I do. Plus he knows everything about the families, rivalries and strengths of the Westerosi lords, valuable information. Plus his intelligence gathering is invaluable. Aegon has been groomed for rule and is a best hope for lack of a better one. 

But yeah, fair enough, the Golden Company are a problem.

[Masha]

 

3 hours ago, Radu Alex said:

Daenerys Targaryen ruling would mean the end of the feudal monarchy and the beginning of the absolutist rule of a Queen. There are hints in both the books and the show that she is out to destroy the feudal system. Do I root for her? Not entirely! 

I believe her story has been developed in a very interesting manner by GRRM. She came from nothing, rose, became very powerful and is out to take it all. The issue here is I don't see GRRM writing this hero story for children where the good princess destroys all her enemies and wins the throne. This is why I think Daenerys will loose or die in Westeros, no matter what.

Nor do I believe she will be the savior-like hero that will defeat the Others. It's just not GRRM's way. I rather think that in her case the road to hell is paved with good intentions and I believe that the more good she tries to do the more harm will come out of it, at least in the short run.

One thing is clear thou - if she tries to dismantle the feudal system in one go, the only way to do that is to slaughter every noble family there is. And that would make her a genocidal maniac. 

I for one am rooting for Tommen. He is portrayed as the kind of king that would, if well counseled, implement a lot of positive reforms. I do not see Westeros becoming a fully centralized state, nor do I see the feudal system vanishing. But I do see major changes on their way. In this regard, the only two things Daenerys could bring are either saving from the Others [maybe - but I am skeptical] or the destruction that could bring about major changes after she is defeated.

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Count me in as rooting against her.  

But I doubt it matters, she will almost certainly roll into Westeros with her giant army of plot gifts and the dragons that she so brutally neglected, ready to die for her and save the day in the battle against the Others.

I don't think Dany will be victorious in Westeros, for all her plot armors I see her being setup for a ginormous fall in Westeros. Either she will be extremely humbled by that or she will die. I don't see her staying the same.

For one, I think she will start as being hostile to every other character in Westeros. fAegon = her rival for throne who presumably threatens her legitimacy, Starks - ice-cold usurpers and rebels, Lannisters - even worse, Tully - got what they deserved, Arryns - traitors, Varys - set up fake Targ, Martells - will not back her because of Quentin  whose fate she will blame on their long delay/hesitancy in supporting Viserys. 

She will actually like Euron, regardless of his monstrous deeds and ignore Tyrion's advice toward Westeros because he is a Lannister.

 

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, Masha said:

 

I don't think Dany will be victorious in Westeros, for all her plot armors I see her being setup for a ginormous fall in Westeros. Either she will be extremely humbled by that or she will die. I don't see her staying the same.

For one, I think she will start as being hostile to every other character in Westeros. fAegon = her rival for throne who presumably threatens her legitimacy, Starks - ice-cold usurpers and rebels, Lannisters - even worse, Tully - got what they deserved, Arryns - traitors, Varys - set up fake Targ, Martells - will not back her because of Quentin  whose fate she will blame on their long delay/hesitancy in supporting Viserys. 

She will actually like Euron, regardless of his monstrous deeds and ignore Tyrion's advice toward Westeros because he is a Lannister.

 

This may be accurate, but I'm still of the opinion that GRRM sees her as a flawed hero, she's Tywin 'fire and blood' without the excess helping of cruelty.  The dragon does not plant.  So, she may not be equipped to rule Westeros, but she is well equipped to "save" it from the Others.

I might have said she would die once, but now I think Jon will be the one to die at the end, along with the wolves, dragons, and 2 or 3 more Starks.