DCEU: The Wings of Liberty Have Lost Some Feathers

[Corvinus85]

I went in with very low expectations, and came out thinking that it was better than expected. Plenty of bad stuff, but there were positives as well: Superman, Wonder Woman, Cyborg, good humor and character chemistry.

The villain was shit.

On the subject of the Amazons in bikini. Considering the large number of Amazonian warriors shown on screen, only a small percentage of them had the bikini outfit, and they had a bit of an interesting role, so I didn't find it egregious. Connie Nielsen and the majority still had the typical armored outfits. Additionally, there was some male nudity - shirtless Momoa, shirtless Cavill, and the dude who played Zeus in the flashback scene, who looked like a throwback to 300. No, the most egregious thing Snyder pulled was making sure there were a few good shots of Gal Gadot's ass.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

2 hours ago, Corvinus said:

I went in with very low expectations, and came out thinking that it was better than expected. Plenty of bad stuff, but there were positives as well: Superman, Wonder Woman, Cyborg, good humor and character chemistry.

The villain was shit.

On the subject of the Amazons in bikini. Considering the large number of Amazonian warriors shown on screen, only a small percentage of them had the bikini outfit, and they had a bit of an interesting role, so I didn't find it egregious. Connie Nielsen and the majority still had the typical armored outfits. Additionally, there was some male nudity - shirtless Momoa, shirtless Cavill, and the dude who played Zeus in the flashback scene, who looked like a throwback to 300. No, the most egregious thing Snyder pulled was making sure there were a few good shots of Gal Gadot's ass.

The low angle ass shots were pretty pointless. 

[Slurktan]

I found the movie entertaining but its a team up movie so I wasn't expecting much.  They had good bits for all of the characters except cyborg and he's a terrible character so who cares really.  I actually quite liked the Batman angle they went with, different from any live action Batman honestly.

Just terrible CGI though.  I'm curious why studios keep hiring WETA to do special effects.  They are fucking awful.

[Liffguard]

I saw JL last night. What an utter pile of nothing. The only thing that saved it from being a disaster was that it didn't have enough ambition to truly fail. A total by-the-numbers waste of time.

- Pointless CGI villain with zero personality or motivation. He had literally no purpose except to make hammy declarations like "No! This cannot be!" Also, for some reason he decided to mention the race of every new person he fought? Amazon! Atlantian! Kryptonian! Yes cheers mate, we've been watching the same movie, we know who these people are.

- Most of the other characters weren't actually characters, just plot pieces. Cyborg especially was the worst for this. He just moped around with his tortured brooding man-pain until his next turn to resolve the plot. Also Aquaman is an obnoxious surf-bro now for some reason.

- What should have been major plot beats were just skipped over in the most perfunctory way possible.
 

Spoiler

 

Batman: "Hey guys, what if this Macguffin could resurrect someone?"

Others: "Well that has immense world-changing implications and there's been no prior indication that it's capable of doing that but sure why not."

Batman: "Let's raise Superman."

Others: "Nah, playing God is bad."

Batman: "But I really want to."

Others: "K."

And then they do and it's all as rushed an inconsequential as its non-existent set-up would imply. And they totally forget about the box and just leave it sitting on top of a car for some reason.

 

There's more but I just can't be arsed right now.

[williamjm]

I saw the film today. I didn't have particularly high expectations, which was probably for the best as I thought the film was basically fine without being particularly good at anything, and I suspect it's unlikely to be all that memorable. It did manage to avoid some of Batman vs Superman's bigger flaws, at least the narrative was coherent and while Steppenwolf was a dull uninteresting CGI villain at least he wasn't actively annoying like Eisenberg's Lex Luthor.

Someone up above said that DC would be pleased by a comparison with the Marvel films, but I'd say this was almost too reminiscent of some of the weaker parts of the Marvel films. The fight against CGI villain and his horde of expendable CGI minions is something we've seen in far too many superhero films now. Some of the dialogue also felt like it was trying very hard to recapture some of the humour of the Avengers films, it had its moments but often felt a bit flat.

I thought Affleck's Batman was one of the best bits of BvS, and I think he's still good here, as is Wonder Woman although she did make me think that I'd probably rather be watching Wonder Woman 2. I liked Ezra Miller as The Flash and Jason Momoa as Aquaman, although I think a Flash movie would be have more potential than an Aquaman film. Cyborg wasn't particularly interesting as a character, but he did serve a plot purpose.

The resurrection of Superman was inevitable, but I agree with the previous comments that it does lower the stakes even more if characters won't stay dead. The bit where the rest of the League are so distracted by Superman that they forget about the Mother Box and leave it lying around for Steppenwolf to steal was very silly.

I thought one of the few occasions where the film managed to have any genuine emotion was Lois' reunion with Clark, Amy Adams did a good job in a small role again.

[The Anti-Targ]

US box office for opening weekend not looking flash (pardon the pun) for Justice League. It's possible this will be the first DCEU movie to have a domestic run <$200 million. Estimated $96m opening weekend, and possibly a final multiplier of 1.99 (which is what BvS got). I think the foreign box office will save it from being a financial trainwreck. But you gotta figure that where the US audience goes, the international audience will soon follow.

If they think the DCEU is going to be a 15-20 movie venture they need to do a serious course correction.

IMO the problem is fundamental. The MCU started out as movies being made by Marvel, as something of a passion project. They had to start with Iron Man because he was a character for which no one wanted to buy the rights. Iron Man and Hulk even had different distributors. The DCEU is a competitive business response to the MCU and you can tell that there is this fundamental difference in the starting positions.

I think there is a reason MoS and WW are regarded by most as the better movies of the 4 we have so far, by quite some margin. Both MoS and WW probably had greater creative freedom. WW, because it happened outside the timeline of the DCEU, and because it was WW and probably not expected to be a core movie for the franchise, so WB didn't try to focus test the life out of it. MoS also likely less micromanaged by the suits, because it was a reboot after a one off reboot so was possibly a "see what you can do with this" sort of thing. Though the money they threw at MoS was ridiculous.

There is something a bit rotten at the core of the DCEU and I think it's an imbalance between the creativie, artistic side of movies and the business side of movies. But it might also be that the wrong creative people are in charge regardless of the business side.

The movie got a B+ from audiences. So it's possible word of mouth might be that the movie is better than the critics say. This could help to push it above $200 million in the USA. Which would still be disappointing, but not the embarrassment that falling short of $200 million would be. 2nd weekend drop will tell.

[polishgenius]

6 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I think there is a reason MoS and WW are regarded by most as the better movies of the 4 we have so far, by quite some margin. Both MoS and WW probably had greater creative freedom. WW, because it happened outside the timeline of the DCEU, and because it was WW and probably not expected to be a core movie for the franchise, so WB didn't try to focus test the life out of it.

 

If anything, for WW the opposite is true. It's by far the safest of the movies in the 'verse so far. If it feels less interfered with, it's because it played within parameters from the start, and execs didn't rush in going 'oh noooo what is you doing!' trying to turn it around.

I don't think there was too much interference on BvS either tbh- that was just one Snyder got wrong. The only ones that we know there has been notable exec fiddling around and that have been Suicide Squad and Justice League.

[The Anti-Targ]

Yikes! Weekend estimate $96 million, weekend actuals $93 million.

That's not a good sign as the usual formula to work out the Sunday  (and Saturday?) numbers to provide the estimate was obviously wrong, which means a bigger drop off than expected. Though looking at the actual %s for the drop for those days they don't look wildly out of whack for these sorts of movies. It does seem a bit like if the Friday (which includes all preview screenings) is huge then the expected drop for Saturday and Sunday are large. If the Friday number is modest then the Saturday and Sunday drops are smaller. It seems like the Friday number for JL was modest, so they applied a smaller drop formula to Saturday and Sunday than what happened.

I wonder how many people went to see it on Friday (and previews) and told friends and family "eh, don't bother."

Warner Bros seems to believe that people will turn out for JL on Thanksgiving weekend, so they are looking at a sort of 2 weekend opening window as a proper measure of box office potential. They seem to think Coco isn't going to be a big draw (a big risk to assume that I think). I dunno, I'd be sweating if I was a WB exec, thanking my lucky stars that the International audience seems to be more forgiving.

Interestingly Thor took a massive hit on the Friday, as you'd expect, but it actually bounced very well on Saturday. So perhaps there was an element of people who saw JL Friday, or previews, telling friends and family to skip JL and see Thor instead.

[Eggegg]

Nothing would please me more than having this movie be an outright failure commercially. It deeply saddened me that Sucide squad did so well, despite its awfulness, a triumph of advertising over movie making.

[red snow]

Most people I know who've seen it said "it's fine". It's nowhere near as bad as suicide squad. No-one I know has said it's great.

It does give me some hope that people are wary of the film and take some notice of the critics. At this stage I think DC/WB know they've took the wrong route with the franchise - especially given wonder woman's success. I guess they were at a stage where they'd spent too much not to release it though so what's happening now is damage limitation.

I'm more confident that the films going ahead will be stronger. I think there's also a really good chance that the Flashpoint film will genuinely restart the franchise. Although I'd put money on Gal Gadot and her history from the film will remain intact - relatively easy given it was set in the past. And depending on how Aquaman fares he may stick around too. Jason Mamoa explained how a lot of material was taken from justice leage and kept for his solo film. Little things like character development, world building etc. Cavill and Afleck Batman will be erased though.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

24 minutes ago, red snow said:

Most people I know who've seen it said "it's fine". It's nowhere near as bad as suicide squad. No-one I know has said it's great.

It does give me some hope that people are wary of the film and take some notice of the critics. At this stage I think DC/WB know they've took the wrong route with the franchise - especially given wonder woman's success. I guess they were at a stage where they'd spent too much not to release it though so what's happening now is damage limitation.

I'm more confident that the films going ahead will be stronger. I think there's also a really good chance that the Flashpoint film will genuinely restart the franchise. Although I'd put money on Gal Gadot and her history from the film will remain intact - relatively easy given it was set in the past. And depending on how Aquaman fares he may stick around too. Jason Mamoa explained how a lot of material was taken from justice leage and kept for his solo film. Little things like character development, world building etc. Cavill and Afleck Batman will be erased though.

I kind of like the Affleck Batman.  It sucks that he's getting so much crap when it isn't his performance that has been the problem.

[red snow]

57 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I kind of like the Affleck Batman.  It sucks that he's getting so much crap when it isn't his performance that has been the problem.

Same here. I think it's a real shame his experience with BvS and people's reaction to it was what cost us a Batfleck directed film - which I think had the potential to be excellent. I don't think any of the cast are particularly to blame for the DCEU so far. It's the tone and nonsensical plot/bizarre editing choices that usually let them down.

I'd like Afleck to stick around in a reboot post flashpoint but it's clear he wants to get as far away from the role as possible. This gives him an out. Actually depending on how much they take inspiration from "flashpoint" they could do away with him for that film

in the comics reality it was Bruce Wayne who died in the alley - his dad became Batman. Which Jeffrey Dean Morgan would be more than welcome to play.

[Eggegg]

11 minutes ago, Leap said:

It's a real shame because the DCEU isn't terribly cast. I still think Cavill and Affleck would have been great with another director, script, studio... who knows. 

The worst part is that Gal Gadot wasn't just good as Wonder Woman, her film was a genuine well deserved success. Now with JL I'm starting to feel like maybe it's time to just wipe the slate clean and try again, but along with the potential of the cast there's a decent film caught in the crossfire.

 

Yeah I agree, I think the pieces are all there in terms of casting, they just keep ballsing up everything else. Affleck could have been potentially the best Batman ever had he appeared in a decent movie but I don't think that is ever going to happen now.

[Red Tiger]

On 21-11-2017 at 8:51 AM, Eggegg said:

Nothing would please me more than having this movie be an outright failure commercially. It deeply saddened me that Sucide squad did so well, despite its awfulness, a triumph of advertising over movie making.

HELL YEAH!!!

[Red Tiger]

Whedon got fired from Batgirl.

[Rhom]

12 minutes ago, Red Tiger said:

Whedon got fired from Batgirl.

That article was a damn mess...

Quote

With Hollywood in a current shake-up after the Harvey Weinstein scandal, Joss Whedon has apparently fallen into that rabbit hole as well. As it turns out, Warner Bros has fired Whedon from directing the Batgirl movie following the allegations of infidelity by his ex-wife Kai Cole.

According to an inside source from SuperBroMovies, Whedon had been fired a few months ago after his ex-wife had revealed that Whedon had been having several affairs during their marriage; calling him a ‘hypocrite preaching feminist ideals.’ It’s said that Warner Bros didn’t want this sort of negativity connected to their movies.

It’s also worth noting that a lot of fans are not happy with what Joss Whedon has done with Justice League, saying that he didn’t stay true to Zack Snyder’s intended vision. It’s also worth noting that there is currently a petition for WB to release Snyder’s cut of the film and it’s amassed over 70,000 signatures online.

Counting that the Whedon scandal came out months ago, there’s chance that WB had changed their minds when it comes to hiring Whedon, but again, since fan reception for Justice League is coming out mixed, Whedon’s future in the DCEU is starting to look a bit murky.

For me personally, I say let Whedon keep the project. We can’t blame everything that happened to Justice League on him, and he was probably being pressured by the studio to deliver something good despite wanting the runtime to be less than two hours. He just probably did what he thought was the best considering what he had to work with.

We don’t know what the future of the Batgirl film will be, but considering that it would have been the second heroine-led movie after Wonder Woman, WB has to make sure this film doesn’t turn out a mess.

So which is it?  He was an adulterer?  (Dumbest reason ever to fire someone from a movie considering this is Hollywood...)  Or was it because Justice League is struggling?

And really?  70,000 people want to see a Zack Snyder cut of Justice League??????

[polishgenius]

Quote

So which is it?  He was an adulterer?  (Dumbest reason ever to fire someone from a movie considering this is Hollywood...) 

I completely missed all this at the time, but apparently his wife accused him not just of adultery but years of emotional abuse, and of openly admitting (to her) he was basically faking his feminist outlook. Presumably WB have realised that since the Weinstein thing that's gonna come back at them.

Honestly, if it turns out that's true, I won't be particularly sad even on a storytelling level (separate from the one of Joss Whedon apparently being a dick where I'm not sad for him anyway). Even though she seems a character precisely in his wheelhouse, I was never sure about the idea of him doing Batgirl. I had the fear he'd do something stupid with it.


Let Gail Simone write the script, or at least the story. From what I've read and heard of her work on Babs, she gets it.

Although being of the time I am I'd still love a Cassandra Cain Batgirl movie.

Eta:

22 hours ago, Leap said:

The worst part is that Gal Gadot wasn't just good as Wonder Woman, her film was a genuine well deserved success. Now with JL I'm starting to feel like maybe it's time to just wipe the slate clean and try again, but along with the potential of the cast there's a decent film caught in the crossfire.

 

Well, it'd be a risky move commercially making it clear what's going on, but that would be what the point of Flashpoint is if the speculation is right that they are actually going to do what comic Flashpoint did. Gives them the chance to keep what they like and cut what failed.

[Kalbear]

The Whedon script for Wonder Woman was incredibly atrocious. 

[KingintheNorth4]

I saw Justice League last night. It's the best DCEU film I've seen so far. The fact that it had actual humor in it helped. 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

This is problematic if people are being fired for issues of morality such as affairs and not being committed to feminism. I don't like Whedon. Seems like to me, he did like to play the white knight and call out others for not doing enough in the world to promote women's empowerment, so him being a hypocrite is interesting. But to fire him? He's still a good filmmaker. He didn't harass women as far as I can tell. I know his wife alleges he was abusive, but that's domestic and marital and is an extremely complex situation to extrapolate to a person's entire life.

If it's for the Justice League--that's kind of crappy that WB insisted on sitting on the Zack Snyder wagon come hell or high water after BvS, letting him go forward and make part of the movie, then having Whedon to come in and fix it. That's a tall order. I suppose people would argue it'd been done before with Rogue One, but the situations are vastly different.

I think this shows dysfunction in WB. Or maybe they just want to move in a different direction? I don't know. But somehow connecting his divorce and extramarital affairs (consenting adults?) to Weinstein is pretty ugly.