Reynes vs. Iron Throne

[Jaak]

How did Tywin get away with provoking Reynes to renounce House Lannister as such?

He was not, formally, Lord yet - and Reynes knew this. Sure, appealing to Tytos was of uncertain effect, given the example of Tywin arresting Lord Tarbeck gone to meet Tytos. But if the Reynes were staying home and disobeying, they could have pointed at Tytos rather than renounce Lannisters as such - "You are no lord yet - have you daddy speak out to call us, then we´ll talk."

Also - sure, many Lannister bannermen were fed up with Reynes and Tarbecks. For some reasons, they had done bad job gaining allies - like Tarbecks who attacked their neighbours when their lands were expensive to buy. So the Lannister bannermen wanted to flock to Tywin. Still, a plausible pretext would have gone a long way.

Iron Throne was fed up with disorders in Westerlands, too, and had actually sent forces before.

How about, Iron Throne formally commissioning Tywin to deal with Reynes as an appointee of Iron Throne on behalf of Iron Throne, rather than on behalf of Casterly Rock? That would have given Tywin the formal authority to overrule Tytos.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Probably because it was a done deal and Tytos accepted it. Executing Tywin and his followers would have been the right, or at least just, course of action, but would have required curbstomping the Westerlands.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

6 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Probably because it was a done deal and Tytos accepted it. Executing Tywin and his followers would have been the right, or at least just, course of action, but would have required curbstomping the Westerlands.

How would it have been right? The Reynes and Tarbecks renounced their fealty to Tytos and went to war, while refusing to surrender after their armies had been defeated in the field.

Not only would it not have been 'right' to execute Tywin and the Lords that followed him but would have been extremely idiotic.

 

[Boarsbane]

8 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

How would it have been right? The Reynes and Tarbecks renounced their fealty to Tytos and went to war, while refusing to surrender after their armies had been defeated in the field.

Not only would it not have been 'right' to execute Tywin and the Lords that followed him but would have been extremely idiotic.

 

Exactly, there are no Reynes to provide justice for anymore, only a moron would try

[norwaywolf123]

40 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

How would it have been right? The Reynes and Tarbecks renounced their fealty to Tytos and went to war, while refusing to surrender after their armies had been defeated in the field.

Not only would it not have been 'right' to execute Tywin and the Lords that followed him but would have been extremely idiotic.

 

he just says that cus he has some strange sense of loyalty to targs or starks

[Bright Blue Eyes]

52 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

How would it have been right? The Reynes and Tarbecks renounced their fealty to Tytos and went to war, while refusing to surrender after their armies had been defeated in the field.

Not only would it not have been 'right' to execute Tywin and the Lords that followed him but would have been extremely idiotic.

The problem is that Tywin opened that particular can of shit and flung it at the ventilator.

 

Let's remember how it started:

Ser Tywin Lannister demands money or hostages, against the explicit orders of Lord Tytos.

Reyne and Tarbeck protested against that to Lord Tytos.

Ser Tywin Lanister captured Lord Tarbeck, against the explicit orders of Lord Tytos.

Lady Tarbeck retaliates.

Lord Tytos releases Lord Tarbeck and apologized for Ser Tywin acting against explicit orders.

Ser Tywin Lannister demands the Reynes and Tarbecks to surrender without Lord Tytos even knowing about it.

Reyne and Tarbeck chose defiance.

Ser Tywin raises a host, hiding everything and all from Lord Tytos.

Ser Tywin slaughters every Tarbeck and Reyne, who had relied upon the King's peace and were thus suckerpunched.

And still Lord Tytos didn't knew about it.

 

By and large, Tywin committed high treason several times over.

 

24 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

he just says that cus he has some strange sense of loyalty to targs or starks

If you'd knew me, you wouldn't say that at all. Please check pretty much any targ thread I ever participiated in.

 

Please let people form their own opinions, especially if you have no additional information.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

4 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Let's remember how it started:

Ser Tywin Lannister demands money or hostages, against the explicit orders of Lord Tytos.

Except that is not how it started.

Before that we had the Tarbecks stealing land from other Westerland nobles. Three landed knights went to Aegon instead of Tytos to have him deal with it and he in turn ordered Tytos to settle the matter. Tytos sent his father-in-law (Tywin's grandfather) to settle the matter the Reynes and Tarbecks murder him and his army.

They also told others to not bother paying the Lannisters back

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Reyne and Tarbeck protested against that to Lord Tytos.

No, they laughed and encouraged misrule.

 Lord Reyne reportedly laughed when his maester read him Ser Tywin’s edicts, and counseled his friends and vassals to do nothing.  “The cub will soon grow weary of chasing his own tail,” he said. . . yet he set about strengthening the defenses of Castamere as well.

Instead of paying back loans they refused, told others to do the same and prepared for war.

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Ser Tywin slaughters every Tarbeck and Reyne, who had relied upon the King's peace and were thus suckerpunched.

 

The Reynes and Tarbecks did the same to Lord Marbrand who was sent by both King Aegon and Tytos to deal with their theft of land. They had no respect for the Kings peace then. And they renounced their fealty, they had no expectation of being protected by the Kings peace. 

Or how about when Roger Reyne executed the captured and imprisoned Peakes? He had no problem 'suckerpunching' then.

And really, they were preparing for war. The difference is that Tywin was quicker and more organized than they were.

They had multiple opportunities to surrender even after initially renouncing their fealty.

• Lord Tarbeck saw the superior numbers that Tywin had and instead of surrendering chose to battle. That is on him
• Lady Tarbeck saw that her husband his army was defeated, she could have surrendered but had faith that her castle was strong and her brothers would defeat Tywin. That is on her.
• Lord Reyne saw what had happened to the Tarbecks, could have surrendered but instead fought he could win (and was quite close at one point) but eventually got beat. That is on him
• His brother at Castamere saw that his brother was beaten in the field and chose to get cocky, refuse to surrender and demand hostages. That too is on him.

How many more chances do these assholes want?

[Jaak]

10 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Except that is not how it started.

Before that we had the Tarbecks stealing land from other Westerland nobles. Three landed knights went to Aegon instead of Tytos to have him deal with it and he in turn ordered Tytos to settle the matter. Tytos sent his father-in-law (Tywin's grandfather) to settle the matter the Reynes and Tarbecks murder him and his army.

Yet we don´t hear how Aegon reacted, or what happened to the three knights involved.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

11 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Yet we don´t hear how Aegon reacted, or what happened to the three knights involved.

We do. He ordered Tytos to deal with it.
 

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And more grief awaited him, for three landed knights who had lost their lands to Lord and Lady Tarbeck had made their way to King’s Landing, to lay their grievance before King Aegon V.  His Grace grew most wroth, it is written, and sent word to Casterly Rock, commanding Lord Tytos to deal with this matter forthwith, “lest we be forced to deal with ourselves.”

Spurred by the royal command, his lordship sent his grieving good-father, Lord Denys Marbrand, to ride in strength to Tarbeck Hall and deliver Lord and Lady Tarbeck to Casterly Rock, that they might be made to answer for their crimes.  “Sweet words,” that old warrior is reported to have said upon hearing the command, “and long have I yearned to hear your lordship speak them.”

The outcome was less sweet.  The Tarbecks had friends even within Casterly Rock, and knew of Lord Marbrand’s coming even before he set out.  Lord Tytos had commanded his good-father sternly not to involve the Reynes “for we have no quarrel with Castamere,” but that did not stop Lady Tarbeck from sending to her brothers.  Denys Marbrand and his knights were still two days ride from Tarbeck Hall when the Red Lion fell upon his camp in the night, slaying hundreds, amongst them old Marbrand himself. 

 

 

[Jaak]

5 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

We do. He ordered Tytos to deal with it.

No, we don't. Did Tytos, in the end, deal with it as commanded by Aegon V?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

4 minutes ago, Jaak said:

No, we don't. Did Tytos, in the end, deal with it as commanded by Aegon V?

Did you not bother to read my last reply?

[Jaak]

5 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Did you not bother to read my last reply?

I did.

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His Grace grew most wroth, it is written, and sent word to Casterly Rock, commanding Lord Tytos to deal with this matter forthwith, “lest we be forced to deal with ourselves.”

Was Aegon satisfied with how Tytos dealt with the matter?

[CJ McLannister]

I suppose Tytos could have punished Tywin.  It was Tytos' authority that was being usurped, not Aegon's.

[Boarsbane]

7 minutes ago, Jaak said:

I did.

Was Aegon satisfied with how Tytos dealt with the matter?

How could he be? The force Tytos sent was slaughtered and Tytos meekly accepted it. We don't know when but we know on 3 separate occasions Aegon had to deploy troops to the Westerlands, I don't see any way Aegon would be happy about that. If Aegon gave up on the West before he died it's because he realized it was futile because Tytos lacked a spine. 

[Jaak]

10 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

How could he be? The force Tytos sent was slaughtered and Tytos meekly accepted it. We don't know when but we know on 3 separate occasions Aegon had to deploy troops to the Westerlands, I don't see any way Aegon would be happy about that. If Aegon gave up on the West before he died it's because he realized it was futile because Tytos lacked a spine. 

Yes. Aegon had directly stated:

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deal with this matter forthwith, “lest we be forced to deal with ourselves.”

so - was he "forced to deal with" the matter forthwith? We hear that Tytos accepted the apologies for slaughtering his goodfather, but what happened to the three landed knights, and what was the immediate reaction?

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If Aegon gave up on the West before he died it's because he realized it was futile because Tytos lacked a spine. 

How does this make interference in West "futile"?

Tytos, for some reason, commanded Marbrand to bring Walderran to Casterly Rock to "answer for his crimes".

He wasn´t required to do so. He might have just written to Walderran: "I´m lenient but King Aegon not so much. These 3 Knights were promised justice by King Aegon. Return these 3 their lands this time and call it justice. You can keep the other lands whose owners haven´t got King´s ear.". If Walderran complied, Tytos could have called it mission accomplished and kept ignoring other things Walderran did. Yet he did immediately send an army to bring Walderran.

 

We are told that the things returned to bad when Aegon´s forces returned from the West, and therefore somehow improved while they were there.

What were the 3 royal missions sent to do?

If Aegon had sent a royal army with direct task to bring Walderran to trial at Red Keep, what would have happened in West with Walderran at Red Keep dungeons? Lady Ellyn could not easily kidnap three Targaryens...