Football - Aftermath of the Euros

[baxus]

Since we needed a new thread and no one made it, I once again took the liberty of making one with a stupid title   

[Raja]

It appears that Chambers might go out on loan for a season ( though I only think this will happen if we bring someone in) - In my mind, he's easily someone that any team outside the top 6 should look at as a CB for a season. I'm looking at you, Everton.  

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Final squad announcements.

Endland: 

Goalkeepers: Joe Hart (Manchester City), Tom Heaton (Burnley), Fraser Forster (Southampton)

Defenders: John Stones (Everton), Nathaniel Clyne (Liverpool), Chris Smalling (Manchester United), Ryan Bertrand (Southampton), Kyle Walker (Tottenham), Gary Cahill (Chelsea), Danny Rose (Tottenham)

Midfielders Adam Lallana (Liverpool), Dele Alli (Tottenham), Jordan Henderson (Liverpool), Raheem Sterling (Man City), Ross Barkley (Everton), Eric Dier (Tottenham), Jack Wilshere (Arsenal), James Milner (Liverpool)

Forwards Jamie Vardy (Leicester City), Marcus Rashford (Man Utd), Wayne Rooney (Man Utd), Daniel Sturridge (Liverpool), Harry Kane (Tottenham)

Out Delph (Injury), Drinkwater, Townsend

Germany: 

Goalkeepers:  Manuel Neuer (FC Bayern), Marc-André ter Stegen (FC Barcelona), Bernd Leno (Bayer Leverkusen)

Defenders: Jerome Boateng (FC Bayern), Jonas Hector (1. FC Köln), Mats Hummels (Borussia Dortmund), Benedikt Höwedes (Schalke 04), Shkodran Mustafi (FC Valencia), Emre Can (FC Liverpool), Antonio Rüdiger (Roma)

Midfielders/Attackers: Sami Khedira (Juventus Turin), Toni Kroos (Real Madrid), Mesut Özil (FC Arsenal), Julian Draxler (VfL Wolfsburg), Lukas Podolski (Galatasaray), Thomas Müller (FC Bayern), Bastian Schweinsteiger (Manchester United), Joshua Kimmich (FC Bayern), Julian Weigl (Borussia Dortmund), Mario Gomez (Besiktas), Mario Götze (FC Bayern), Leroy Sané (Schalke 04), André Schürrle (VfL Wolfsburg)

Out: Reus (Injury), Brandt, Bellarabi, Rudy.

Tough luck for Reus. Missing the 2014 WC and now the 2016 Euros. And the eternal wisdom remains true. The sun rises in the east, goes down in the west, and in between Podolski will always be part of the German squad.

[MisterOJ]

In the 3-4 years I've been following world soccer, it's always struck me as interesting how every single English national team player always played in the EPL. But if you look at the list for Germany, maybe a third of them play elsewhere.

What is the main reason for that? Is it mostly just money? In that the English players can all make top dollar in the EPL, but the Bundesliga can't keep up financially and some of Germany's best players have to go to other countries to maximize their earnings?

[Rorshach]

54 minutes ago, Raja said:

It appears that Chambers might go out on loan for a season ( though I only think this will happen if we bring someone in) - In my mind, he's easily someone that any team outside the top 6 should look at as a CB for a season. I'm looking at you, Everton.  

Prefer to buy, actually, but perhaps not Chambers. He may be an upgrade on Funes Mori, but I'm not really sure we need the fourth choice centre back at Arsenal.

After all, defensive solidity isn't really the first words that come to mind with you guys..

[Mexal]

2 minutes ago, Rorshach said:

Prefer to buy, actually, but perhaps not Chambers. He may be an upgrade on Funes Mori, but I'm not really sure we need the fourth choice centre back at Arsenal.

After all, defensive solidity isn't really the first words that come to mind with you guys..

I think he's capable and I think you'd be happy with him. Every time I've seen him play at CB, I say to myself that's his position and his future. He looks solid, just lacks top level experience.

[Raja]

I think Chambers is quite under-rated - he might be fourth choice, but imo, I'd have him in front of Gabriel. He will probably go to a team in the bottom half, if he goes at all. I just hope he stays in the PL and is first choice CB 

[Rorshach]

3 minutes ago, Mexal said:

I think he's capable and I think you'd be happy with him. Every time I've seen him play at CB, I say to myself that's his position and his future. He looks solid, just lacks top level experience.

Quite possibly. I think we'll have to see first who our new manager is, and when (if..) Stones leave. Hopefully, Galloway will be injury-free as well. 

[Philokles]

19 minutes ago, MisterOJ said:

In the 3-4 years I've been following world soccer, it's always struck me as interesting how every single English national team player always played in the EPL. But if you look at the list for Germany, maybe a third of them play elsewhere.

What is the main reason for that? Is it mostly just money? In that the English players can all make top dollar in the EPL, but the Bundesliga can't keep up financially and some of Germany's best players have to go to other countries to maximize their earnings?

A large part is financial, less so for Germany than elsewhere, but the Premier League does still pay better, especially from mid-table downwards. It is not just salaries, but also exorbitant transfer fees, which makes the smaller clubs more willing to sell their players to England for more than to a divisional rival.

But also because of the popular conception that the Premier League is considerably better than elsewhere. It has been reduced somewhat by recent Champions League performances, but even now unless you are at Real, Barca or Bayern many see it as a step below the Premier League. That affects both the attractiveness of a foreign move and the chances of being called into the national squad.

And foreign clubs are reluctant to sign Englishmen, and unsurprisingly so. They expect higher wages and most of the recent 'big-name' players who have moved have done terribly - either failing to integrate, not caring or being complacent about the standard of play. The success stories that I can think of are all young players looking to make a name for themselves, generally on loan, and Joey Barton - who was more in exile than there of his own accord.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

5 minutes ago, MisterOJ said:

In the 3-4 years I've been following world soccer, it's always struck me as interesting how every single English national team player always played in the EPL. But if you look at the list for Germany, maybe a third of them play elsewhere.

What is the main reason for that? Is it mostly just money? In that the English players can all make top dollar in the EPL, but the Bundesliga can't keep up financially and some of Germany's best players have to go to other countries to maximize their earnings?

Partly, yes. But money is usually not the only factor for a player to move (it's not like professional footballers in Germany live in poverty) . It's also about wanting to compete at the highest possible level for them, and a question whether you want to live abroad. Professional footballers (well athletes in general) live in a bubble, but it's still a question for them if they want to learn a new language and adapt to a new culture, or if they are satisfied with their lives. And then you also need foreign clubs to be interested in buying the players. I think it's a mixture of a lot of those things, and something you have to ask for each player individually. 

The Germans playing abroad have their own stories:

ter Stegen moved to Barcelona, because Barcelona is the best club at the world atm, and he would be competing for their goalkeeper spot. Ofc a significant pay rise was involved, but Barcelona is/was one of those once in a lifetime opportunities.

Mustafi moved to England (Everton) at a relatively young age, but there he could sign a pro contract earlier (and get a bigger paycheck). He failed to make it there, and moved to Serie B side Sampdoria, they won the promotion, and he managed to establish himself as first team player. And he became somewhat surprisingly part of Germany's WC winning squad and moved to Valencia (bigger club, bigger paycheck). I wonder if that makes the toffees cry a bit. 

Rüdiger his club basically needed money, and the player wanted to compete on a higher level (play european football) instead of relegation battles. The rumor mill has him now tied to Chelsea btw.

Khedira and Özil were brought into Real Madrid by Mourinho. Madrid is one of the biggest clubs in the world, so for them it was kinda no-brainer to play there (once in a lifetime opportunities). And ofc they made much more than at their former clubs (Stuttgart and Bremen). Mourinho left, the new coach did not dig Özil that much and they had to accomdate their new toy (Bale), make some money and wanted him somewhat gone. So he moved to Arsenal. Similar story with Khedira, with Khedira also having suffered quite a few injuries towards the end of his stay at Madrid, so he moved to Juve. 

Kroos was somewhat similar to Özil and Khedira, but not entirely. Kroos already played for a big club. He felt somewhat unappreciated and wanted a raise in his wage that Bayern was not willing to pay him, so he moved to Madrid. 

Podolski was the star at his youth club Köln, to which he returned after a less succesful period at Bayern. Köln was never going to be more than a midleague club (with the potential to drop), so he at some point frustrated over the lack of progress had the chance to play at Champions League club at Arsenal (combined with raise). So he was transfered there. After he failed to make the first team towards the end of his time there, he was moved to Inter on a loan, failed to make it there, and ended up in Turkey, a European second tier league.

Gomez moved to Bayern, towards the end of his time there, he lost his place to Mandzukic and moved on to Fiorentina. There he struggled quite a bit with form and injuries and has now like Podoslki found his way to Turkey. The move to Fiorentina made somewhat sense, because if you leave Bayern, any other German club would be step down. So he decided he wanted a fresh start in a different country.

[MisterOJ]

5 minutes ago, Notone said:

Partly, yes. But money is usually not the only factor for a player to move (it's not like professional footballers in Germany live in poverty) . It's also about wanting to compete at the highest possible level for them, and a question whether you want to live abroad. Professional footballers (well athletes in general) live in a bubble, but it's still a question for them if they want to learn a new language and adapt to a new culture, or if they are satisfied with their lives. And then you also need foreign clubs to be interested in buying the players. I think it's a mixture of a lot of those things, and something you have to ask for each player individually. 

The Germans playing abroad have their own stories:

ter Stegen moved to Barcelona, because Barcelona is the best club at the world atm, and he would be competing for their goalkeeper spot. Ofc a significant pay rise was involved, but Barcelona is/was one of those once in a lifetime opportunities.

Mustafi moved to England (Everton) at a relatively young age, but there he could sign a pro contract earlier (and get a bigger paycheck). He failed to make it there, and moved to Serie B side Sampdoria, they won the promotion, and he managed to establish himself as first team player. And he became somewhat surprisingly part of Germany's WC winning squad and moved to Valencia (bigger club, bigger paycheck). I wonder if that makes the toffees cry a bit. 

Rüdiger his club basically needed money, and the player wanted to compete on a higher level (play european football) instead of relegation battles. The rumor mill has him now tied to Chelsea btw.

Khedira and Özil were brought into Real Madrid by Mourinho. Madrid is one of the biggest clubs in the world, so for them it was kinda no-brainer to play there (once in a lifetime opportunities). And ofc they made much more than at their former clubs (Stuttgart and Bremen). Mourinho left, the new coach did not dig Özil that much and they had to accomdate their new toy (Bale), make some money and wanted him somewhat gone. So he moved to Arsenal. Similar story with Khedira, with Khedira also having suffered quite a few injuries towards the end of his stay at Madrid, so he moved to Juve. 

Kroos was somewhat similar to Özil and Khedira, but not entirely. Kroos already played for a big club. He felt somewhat unappreciated and wanted a raise in his wage that Bayern was not willing to pay him, so he moved to Madrid. 

Podolski was the star at his youth club Köln, to which he returned after a less succesful period at Bayern. Köln was never going to be more than a midleague club (with the potential to drop), so he at some point frustrated over the lack of progress had the chance to play at Champions League club at Arsenal (combined with raise). So he was transfered there. After he failed to make the first team towards the end of his time there, he was moved to Inter on a loan, failed to make it there, and ended up in Turkey, a European second tier league.

Gomez moved to Bayern, towards the end of his time there, he lost his place to Mandzukic and moved on to Fiorentina. There he struggled quite a bit with form and injuries and has now like Podoslki found his way to Turkey. The move to Fiorentina made somewhat sense, because if you leave Bayern, any other German club would be step down. So he decided he wanted a fresh start in a different country.

So, from a German perspective then; if you're not playing for Bayern, you might as well move to another country because they are the only team with a shot of winning anything in the German league?

ETA: But it's not just like that for Germans. Spain has several top national team players in other leagues. Same for Italy and France. It seems only England (and to a lesser extent Russia) keep all their top national players in the domestic league.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Yes, and no. Bayern is kinda the apex predator if you like. They win most and pay best. Usually you find a taker if you leave Bayern. But other German clubs are really a step back. It's like if you are in England playing for the big clubs. If you played for Manchester City, a move to Everton (no offense) would also feel a bit like a step back in your career. There are quite a few players who left Bayern and stayed in Germany (e.g. atm Rode is rumoredly on the move to Dortmund, but Tottenham is also interested in signing him). But it's really a question. If you are leaving on your own accord, it usually has to be for a bigger club. That narrows the field down quite a bit atm (Barcelona, Real and ?). If you leave, because you did not make it there, there's always this failed at Bayern label looming. And what can another German club offer, that I have not seen/done at Bayern? 

Then it really is a question. What offers do I have? If there's a foreign club interested, is that what I want to do right, now? Do I want to move abroad, what does my significant other think about it (not unimportant esp. if children are involved). 

[Rorshach]

40 minutes ago, Notone said:

Mustafi moved to England (Everton) at a relatively young age, but there he could sign a pro contract earlier (and get a bigger paycheck). He failed to make it there, and moved to Serie B side Sampdoria, they won the promotion, and he managed to establish himself as first team player. And he became somewhat surprisingly part of Germany's WC winning squad and moved to Valencia (bigger club, bigger paycheck). I wonder if that makes the toffees cry a bit. 

Absolutely. When he was with us, he had a partnership in the reserves with Shane Duffy. Now, everyone (well, most people, probably, but allow a little hyperbole) could see that while they were more or less equal at lower level, Duffy was your archtypical Aulde Centre Back. Big, strong, hard - but also slow, and not comfortable with the ball. That he never took the step up didn't surprise me.

Mustafi was different, and since we had those two to choose from, I never understood why Duffy was chosen. Perhaps because his physique was more PL-ready? Who knows.

[Philokles]

Having a decent proportion of your best players playing overseas is normal and healthy for a country's football. It is indicative of problems with your system if the squad is almost entirely domestically based. That is probably the case for England and especially so for Russia - where it is causing major problems in the run up to their World Cup.

[Iskaral Pust]

Such a pity for Reus again. 

English players are trapped in the PL by high wage expectations and weak cultural & tactical adaptability.  The latter two dominated even when wage opportunities were inverted -- only a handful of players even tried to play in Italy or Spain in the 1980s & 90s (Rush, Souness, Lineker, Hughes, Gazza, Platt, Blisset come to mind) with mixed success. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1980s early 1990s were in the pre Bosman era. So there only a limited number of foreigners allowed to play. To actually make it to the Serie A (that was the big League at that time), you really had to be insanely good to make it. So there the opportunity to play abroad were a bit more limited. 

[baxus]

Serbian men's national team is back on their way to glory after beating such powerhouses as Cyprus and Israel!  

[Philokles]

I don't know a huge deal about Serbian football, but there actually does seem to be a good amount of promising u23s in that squad, plus the generation that won the u20 World Cup in a few years.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

10 hours ago, Sept Sev said:

Having a decent proportion of your best players playing overseas is normal and healthy for a country's football. It is indicative of problems with your system if the squad is almost entirely domestically based. That is probably the case for England and especially so for Russia - where it is causing major problems in the run up to their World Cup.

Not that there's no merit to this, but the Italian side that won in 2006 almost to a man played in Italy.

[baxus]

9 hours ago, Sept Sev said:

I don't know a huge deal about Serbian football, but there actually does seem to be a good amount of promising u23s in that squad, plus the generation that won the u20 World Cup in a few years.

I'd like to be proven wrong on that one, but I expect most of that talent to waste away in mediocre clubs.

Reasons are many and I'm not in the mood to get into that discussion right now.