Arya and the Waif !?

[Nihoa]

I'm going to start a drinking game for these forums.

Every time someone puts something down to bad writing ... drink. Every time someone casts D&D as idiots ... drink. Every time someone blames a wolf death on the CGI budget ... drink.

Should have us all sloshed in no time, wha?

[The Handsome Man]

8 hours ago, TickTak7 said:

The story in the books was much different, respectfully. 

In the books we learned much about what Arya was training - about her observing, and improving her senses and her combat, warging, etc. 

We don't get a hint of any of that improvement in the show. I don't think they've intended to show any of Arya's growth at all. There hasn't been any. Her character hasn't evolved or improved at all. 

I don't think you quite understand my point. 

The show's Arya arc is poorly written - she's been there for a full season and a half now, and I'm sorry, but a simple dual with the Waif which leaves Arya as the victor, is not enough of a pay-off for having to sit through this boring arc. 

This is spot on  - thanks for making the point.  What is all the more aggravating is that it really would not have taken much effort to dovetail the show with the training and evolution of Arya's skills as set forth in the books.  A little less sweeping and just an additional training montage or two.  My frustration really boiled over with the attempted poisoning of Lady Crane:  just walk in and pour a vial in her rum?  Hot Pie could have done that.  In the books, she comes up with a creative way to dispose of the Thin Man and then, with cold precision, Raff.

I hate to be critical: it is no small feat to turn these books into TV and I like how they have truncated or eliminated many other plots and characters (please, no LSH).  But the Arya chapters are some of the best written in the books and they did such a marvelous job with her character in Seasons 1-4 that the expectations were high for the move to Braavos and the FM.  I just do not follow what they are moving toward.  If she leaves Braavos and the FM without any ability to change faces, then it was a waste of time but if she somehow escapes with that ability, with no further exposition, its too much of a leap.  The writers have boxed themselves in here.

[ssls6]

They are not monks....here is a quote about the FM from the wiki

When the small council discuss the possibility of hiring a Faceless Man to kill Daenerys Targaryen, Petyr Baelish states that the council could hire an army of sellswords for half the price that the Faceless Men would charge for a merchant, and that killing a princess would be far more expensive.^[2] In A Dance with Dragons, it is revealed the price could be someone's income or a child.

Footnote 2 is from the book Game of Thrones, Eddard Chapter 33.

They are definitely paid assassins and the price is very high.  They also may have other agendas but I just don't think they should be considered Robin Hood type characters.

[Smoke317]

12 hours ago, DutchArya said:

The Kindly Man woke Arya up and played the Lying Game. He spotted her lies, things that happened that only someone at KL would know: How Arya killed the stable boy for example.

 

I think there is more to Jaqen/KM/The Waif. 

Then there is this recent interview to consider:

Full quote from the Hollywood Reporter (May 2016)

Does Jaqen H'ghar share Wlaschiha's admiration? The actor won't say, but he does suggest that the relationship between Jaqen and Arya is perhaps more predestined, or at least more purposeful, than one would initially think.

"From the beginning, he's somehow chosen her to be his apprentice," he says. "He wasn't in that cage for nothing. It wasn't just random. I think he always had a bigger plan for her. He's trying to teach her to the best of his abilities, even if sometimes that comes across as punishing or hurting her."

"I think Jaqen wants what's best for her," he continues, "because he has an agenda with her."

But Arya has an agenda of her own, according to Williams: "Arya this season will learn the most valuable lesson she has learned and will ever have learned. She's going to develop a skill that's going to come in handy and will benefit her for a very, very long time. I guess the people who are training her are going to almost create a bit of a monster. They're going to give away all of their best-kept secrets, and she's going to ultimately use that to her advantage."

I think this interview by Wlaschica is very telling. Since the FM meeting Arya isn't random, then they have an agenda. Hmmm...  Who besides maybe the red God (who we've only seen do a couple/few resurrections in the books and shows) is robbing the many faced God of his deaths???  The white walkers of course. And they're doing it by the thousands. I think the FM needed a Stark in their ranks and sought Arya out. I wouldn't be surprised if they knew that the Stark kids had direwolves and knew about magic returning and the Starks ability to Warg. They knew that having one of them in their crew would help them defeat the WW's. This definitely ties Arya and the FM into the endgame war against the White Walkers.  Perhaps Jaq'en will explain this to Arya next episode after she defeats the Waif.

Spoiler

In the books, they are sneaking into Oldtown to find something.  Perhaps some secrets to defeating the WW's just like Sam...

 

[20goodHoldtheDoors]

11 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

I think this interview by Wlaschica is very telling. Since the FM meeting Arya isn't random, then they have an agenda. Hmmm...  Who besides maybe the red God (who we've only seen do a couple/few resurrections in the books and shows) is robbing the many faced God of his deaths???  The white walkers of course. And they're doing it by the thousands. I think the FM needed a Stark in their ranks and sought Arya out. I wouldn't be surprised if they knew that the Stark kids had direwolves and knew about magic returning and the Starks ability to Warg. They knew that having one of them in their crew would help them defeat the WW's. This definitely ties Arya and the FM into the endgame war against the White Walkers.  Perhaps Jaq'en will explain this to Arya next episode after she defeats the Waif.

  Reveal hidden contents

In the books, they are sneaking into Oldtown to find something.  Perhaps some secrets to defeating the WW's just like Sam...

 

 

My thinking is the faceless men are not interested in defeating the WW or anything relating to the Long Night.  If the FM are conspiring against someone/someones, IMO, it would be against Dany and her dragons.  They are likely very eager to destroy both her and the dragons... when you consider the reasons behind the founding of Braavos as well as the history of the FM it is not only logical but again IMO this is their endgame. 

[Trimula]

Paid Assassins?  No, they have lost their way and are no longer true to their history.  I don't think FM have a long line of recruits just begging to join their ranks.  the training basely covers killing with being detected.  outside the show, we have never Jaquen killed someone, it is heavily applied but no one can bare witness.  People fear what they can't explain.  I thought a street performer would have anywhere near the amount of gold required to hire a FM.  It was purely a test for Arya, would she just kill as the Waif or understand true justice.  the justice of the first FM, no one is beyond or above the reach balance justice.  Arya has pass the final test, killing someone should never be done out of hate, sorrow, love, but only which restore balance.  Dying is not always physically dying, just understand the "Hound".  The Hound that made her list had died when she refused to gift him.  She was clearly on her way of a FM of the old way, the true way, the Jaquen way!

my 2 cents 

[a black swan]

26 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

 

 

I just love Tom & Maisie they just give so much away but very indirectly.  LOL

 

Judging by her new look in the e7 promo... do you think that before or after her showdown with the Waif? One if the main GoT writers said the following about ep7:

EW's interview with Mr Bryan Cogman that could be interesting:

“All I can say about next week’s episode is there was a week of shooting a particular sequence/storyline that was my favorite week on set in six seasons of Game of Thrones.”

 

Maisie reveals:

She can’t reveal any more, but Williams urges people to pay attention. “Particularly this year, there are a lot of moments throughout the earlier parts of the season that [Arya] uses in the second half of the series to her advantage. I love that — that you can watch something again and again and again.”

Thoughts? I'm excited!

[Smoke317]

14 minutes ago, 20goodHoldtheDoors said:

 

My thinking is the faceless men are not interested in defeating the WW or anything relating to the Long Night.  If the FM are conspiring against someone/someones, IMO, it would be against Dany and her dragons.  They are likely very eager to destroy both her and the dragons... when you consider the reasons behind the founding of Braavos as well as the history of the FM it is not only logical but again IMO this is their endgame. 

The first FM and many in Braavos were slaves. Dany has been tearing through slavers bay freeing slaves. I don't think they are after Dany. But just in case she goes mad maybe...  I think the faceless men "who have a Weirwood door" a tree linked with the old gods and the first men and the white walkers, will definitely be playing a role in the endgame and it'll be to stop the all conquering force that steals deaths from the many faced god. Not the dragon queen who is liberating slaves like the very first FM did. I think they know the big picture as do the red priests. They know Dany & her dragons will play a big part in the endgame. Not a time for personal grudges. But it could be interesting if after the smoke clears and the battle is won, if a FM offs Dany...  Now that would surely be bittersweet. 

[Smoke317]

3 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

 

I just love Tom & Maisie they just give so much away but very indirectly.  LOL

 

Judging by her new look in the e7 promo... do you think that before or after her showdown with the Waif? One if the main GoT writers said the following about ep7:

EW's interview with Mr Bryan Cogman that could be interesting:

“All I can say about next week’s episode is there was a week of shooting a particular sequence/storyline that was my favorite week on set in six seasons of Game of Thrones.”

 

Maisie reveals:

She can’t reveal any more, but Williams urges people to pay attention. “Particularly this year, there are a lot of moments throughout the earlier parts of the season that [Arya] uses in the second half of the series to her advantage. I love that — that you can watch something again and again and again.”

Thoughts? I'm excited!

Very Interesting. Let me think on that for a moment. 

[20goodHoldtheDoors]

1 minute ago, Smoke317 said:

The first FM and many in Braavos were slaves. Dany has been tearing through slavers bay freeing slaves. I don't think they are after Dany. But just in case she goes mad maybe...  I think the faceless men "who have a Weirwood door" a tree linked with the old gods and the first men and the white walkers, will definitely be playing a role in the endgame and it'll be to stop the all conquering force that steals deaths from the many faced god. Not the dragon queen who is liberating slaves like the very first FM did. I think they know the big picture as do the red priests. They know Dany & her dragons will play a big part in the endgame. Not a time for personal grudges. But it could be interesting if after the smoke clears and the battle is won, if a FM offs Dany...  Now that would surely be bittersweet. 

As much as I really honestly hope that the FM/Red Faith/etc all see the "overall big picture,"  I have a gut feeling that either they will all be totally wrong, or, that even possessing the big picture/path to victory (whatever you want to call it lol) is not good enough.... just because you have a roadmap or a planned route does not always mean things happen according to said plan lol

[Smoke317]

10 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

 

I just love Tom & Maisie they just give so much away but very indirectly.  LOL

 

Judging by her new look in the e7 promo... do you think that before or after her showdown with the Waif? One if the main GoT writers said the following about ep7:

EW's interview with Mr Bryan Cogman that could be interesting:

“All I can say about next week’s episode is there was a week of shooting a particular sequence/storyline that was my favorite week on set in six seasons of Game of Thrones.”

 

Maisie reveals:

She can’t reveal any more, but Williams urges people to pay attention. “Particularly this year, there are a lot of moments throughout the earlier parts of the season that [Arya] uses in the second half of the series to her advantage. I love that — that you can watch something again and again and again.”

Thoughts? I'm excited!

That could definitely be post fight and Arya getting one last glimpse of the beautiful city of Braavos before leaving.  Also the Arya/waif fight is going to be badass with the parkour jumps and music and intensity. Definitely fits favorite part on set in 6 seasons. Now the Maisie bit about paying attention. This clearly refers to her fights/beatings with the waif.  Could she use the darkness to her advantage?  Will she put poison on needle?  Arya finally blocks the Waif's blow when she attacks out of anger. Will Arya use getting the waif angry to her advantage?  Making her predictable?

[Smoke317]

12 minutes ago, 20goodHoldtheDoors said:

As much as I really honestly hope that the FM/Red Faith/etc all see the "overall big picture,"  I have a gut feeling that either they will all be totally wrong, or, that even possessing the big picture/path to victory (whatever you want to call it lol) is not good enough.... just because you have a roadmap or a planned route does not always mean things happen according to said plan lol

Oh it won't be easy by any stretch of imagination. And I think most will die in the end. But I think the majority will realize that the fate of mankind rests in their hands and it's the war against the WW's not the political games and schemes that really matters.  Those that don't or can't recognize that will be killed off so we can focus on the grand finale. Thus the likes of Cersei, LF, Euron, Ramsey, Tyrells, HS, Freys are doomed for destruction either this season or early next. Dany fits in this column too but the new red priestess will get her to see the big picture.  Sansa currently fits in there too. Time for her to truly grow up and quit playing the Littlefinger games and since she's a stark remember her family words "winter is coming".

[Lemore]

11 hours ago, ssls6 said:

They are not monks....here is a quote about the FM from the wiki

When the small council discuss the possibility of hiring a Faceless Man to kill Daenerys Targaryen, Petyr Baelish states that the council could hire an army of sellswords for half the price that the Faceless Men would charge for a merchant, and that killing a princess would be far more expensive.^[2] In A Dance with Dragons, it is revealed the price could be someone's income or a child.

Footnote 2 is from the book Game of Thrones, Eddard Chapter 33.

They are definitely paid assassins and the price is very high.  They also may have other agendas but I just don't think they should be considered Robin Hood type characters.

If they're that expensive how did that travelling actress afford them i wonder?

[TickTak7]

14 hours ago, The Handsome Man said:

This is spot on  - thanks for making the point.  What is all the more aggravating is that it really would not have taken much effort to dovetail the show with the training and evolution of Arya's skills as set forth in the books.  A little less sweeping and just an additional training montage or two.  My frustration really boiled over with the attempted poisoning of Lady Crane:  just walk in and pour a vial in her rum?  Hot Pie could have done that.  In the books, she comes up with a creative way to dispose of the Thin Man and then, with cold precision, Raff.

I hate to be critical: it is no small feat to turn these books into TV and I like how they have truncated or eliminated many other plots and characters (please, no LSH).  But the Arya chapters are some of the best written in the books and they did such a marvelous job with her character in Seasons 1-4 that the expectations were high for the move to Braavos and the FM.  I just do not follow what they are moving toward.  If she leaves Braavos and the FM without any ability to change faces, then it was a waste of time but if she somehow escapes with that ability, with no further exposition, its too much of a leap.  The writers have boxed themselves in here.

Bingo. 

You've hit the nail on the head here. In many storylines across Westeros, we know what sort of Pay-Off want. (Ramsey to die, Jon/Sansa to take Winterfell, etc). With Arya, there's no clear pay-off at all - what is this story even building to?

Her motivations have never been explained or explored, which is the very problem with this arc. We are all waiting for that big *REASON* that eventually pushes Arya back to the main plot, and that big *REASON* turns out to be..... a really good actor? 

It just doesn't jive at all. 

It's particularly disappointing when you consider how long Arya has been in Braavos, and how many scenes she's had in Braavos - it just all feels like a really bad mis-management of time. I agree with you - they could easily have worked in some different scenes to really help explain both Arya's narrative & her motivations. 

 

[Net-Viper X]

15 hours ago, Nihoa said:

I'm going to start a drinking game for these forums.

Every time someone puts something down to bad writing ... drink. Every time someone casts D&D as idiots ... drink. Every time someone blames a wolf death on the CGI budget ... drink.

Should have us all sloshed in no time, wha?

They don't make enough liquor for that, it would cause a nationwide alcohol shortage in a matter of minutes.

[ssls6]

4 hours ago, Lemore said:

If they're that expensive how did that travelling actress afford them i wonder?

Really good question and maybe tied in to their hidden agenda.  Paid assassins can have other agendas which I believe they do I just don't have any idea what it could be.  The same thing for the ship underwriter....why him?  Arya was given the task to kill him and he was portrayed as an evil business man but I don't recall who paid for him receiving the gift.

[Tagganaro]

1 hour ago, TickTak7 said:

Bingo. 

You've hit the nail on the head here. In many storylines across Westeros, we know what sort of Pay-Off want. (Ramsey to die, Jon/Sansa to take Winterfell, etc). With Arya, there's no clear pay-off at all - what is this story even building to?

Her motivations have never been explained or explored, which is the very problem with this arc. We are all waiting for that big *REASON* that eventually pushes Arya back to the main plot, and that big *REASON* turns out to be..... a really good actor? 

It just doesn't jive at all. 

It's particularly disappointing when you consider how long Arya has been in Braavos, and how many scenes she's had in Braavos - it just all feels like a really bad mis-management of time. I agree with you - they could easily have worked in some different scenes to really help explain both Arya's narrative & her motivations. 

 

While I haven't been a particularly big fan of Arya's arc, her reason for turning on the FM is much more than Lady Crane being a "really good actor."  To this point, as far as I can remember, while Arya's done some morally shady stuff for the FM, she has never been asked to kill an "innocent."  Not only is Lady Crane an innocent, but clearly their on the nose convo beforehand also helps change Arya's mind, as well as watching the play.  She's not ready to be no one and never has been- watching Ned get beheaded again and the emotions that brought up, plus Arya's convo with Lady Crane about Cersei not being able to not get vengeance on those who "wronged" her, were reminders of Arya's own identity that she has never been able to give up.

I still think there's more to come on this front.  Arya will be using FM skills in Westeros that will justify her time in Braavos I think.  Or a twist is coming.  

23 minutes ago, ssls6 said:

Really good question and maybe tied in to their hidden agenda.  Paid assassins can have other agendas which I believe they do I just don't have any idea what it could be.  The same thing for the ship underwriter....why him?  Arya was given the task to kill him and he was portrayed as an evil business man but I don't recall who paid for him receiving the gift.

 

4 hours ago, Lemore said:

If they're that expensive how did that travelling actress afford them i wonder?

There are 2 possible explanations I think.  1 is that Jaqen/the Faceless Men are full of it.  They are simple assassins with their own needs/desires that use magic and religion to justify their assassination business.  They received this offer from the younger actress and realized it filled a simple need for them because it was on location (i.e. close by in Braavos) and could use it to test Arya.  I have little doubt that Jaqen knew exactly where he was sending Arya to and what kind of play it was.  It provides a perfect test for Arya from an emotional standpoint of becoming no one as she has to relive Ned's beheading and other emotional triggers.

The second explanation is that how "expensive" something is, viewed through the Faceless Men's perspective, is relative.  Meaning that a rich merchant would have to pay much much much more than a poor peasant.  From that perspective, the FM are mainly concerned with how much the person "paying" them is willing to give up for what they want.  Once the relative value surpasses a certain point where it's clear that the payer is willing to give up close to everything to get that person killed, the FM are satisfied with the price as it relates to handing out the "gift."

I think either/or works.

[Smoke317]

I think I've finally figured out the Arya bloody hand leaving a blood trail on the wall from the season 6 trailer. 

I believe that Arya is leaving a blood trail for the Waif to follow into the darkness where her blind training will be very useful in that showdown.

Spoiler

There were spoiler pics of Arya and the Waif fighting and the Waif wielding a bloody knife.  I think she will in fact cut Arya.  Thus the blood.  Then cue the chase scene with the parkour jumps and Arya will lead her into the darkness where needle will be waiting.  Here's where the real fun starts.  What if we see the waif exit from the darkness at the conclusion but it is really Arya wearing her face?  Be a great shocker of a moment.  Then later in the episode return to waif (really Arya) and she confronts Jaq'en and removes the waif's face.  Then Jaq'en would truly declare her "no one"...

 

[RedShirt47]

Arya lost herself, her identity. She had gone wild (feral almost). She was dressed as a boy named Arry and knifing men at a camp site because they were laughing at the Red Wedding. She went full-on overkill on Meryn Trant, not just killing him but torturing him and enjoying it.
But when confronted by becoming No-one and actually being a cold blooded assasin sent to kill an innocent woman, she has found herfelf again. She will become Arya Stark again. She will be in control of herself and her life.

Arya may have picked up a few new skills but the real journey she has been on is learning how to be at ease with who she is. She used to be fueled by anger and vengence, her list grew and grew - new names being added every week. But now the list is down to three or four names.
The books do go into more detail about her training but books can do that they have the space to do it. Also they have POVs to know what people are thinking, the show doesn't. All the show can do is show her do some training and hope people get that she has learnt something. They even had a Training Montage. That trope in itself should be enough to say "She trained, she learned", they did well to avoid the montage feeling cliched. But these new skills  are not the main point of this plotline.

This journey began with the Hound. His philosophy on life and her coming to terms with him, not killing him when she left started her on the road to this finding herself. Her list had already shrunk by the time she got to Bravos. Her time with the Faceless Men has progessed this journey. She still has some way to go before she can be just a normal young girl again, if she ever can. Finding her wolf, her family, her home will probably help this.

Of course she still has a few names on the list, and I think she will still go after Walder Frey and possibly Cersei. But I don't see her being the wild savage killer she was when she first met The Hound. Perhaps she'll learn to frogive Cersei by the end of her journey.

[dbunting]

So, are people here now saying that the FM are somehow greenseers or fortune tellers? Arya met Jaqen while escaping KL before the dragons were even born. So he was in the cells in KL before Ned was even beheaded, which was unplanned and done by the impulsive Joffrey. So how would the FM know the dragons were coming and already be scheming to have Jaqen meet and train Arya? And ask yourself another question, why Arya? Why would they specifically pick her out to be part of their "end game"?

I would be really surprised if there is some secret pre planned agenda for the FM to help the WW(who btw kill all humans) kill Dany, started before she even had dragons or whatever.