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Arya and the Waif !?


TickTak7

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21 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

While I haven't been a particularly big fan of Arya's arc, her reason for turning on the FM is much more than Lady Crane being a "really good actor."  To this point, as far as I can remember, while Arya's done some morally shady stuff for the FM, she has never been asked to kill an "innocent."  Not only is Lady Crane an innocent, but clearly their on the nose convo beforehand also helps change Arya's mind, as well as watching the play.  She's not ready to be no one and never has been- watching Ned get beheaded again and the emotions that brought up, plus Arya's convo with Lady Crane about Cersei not being able to not get vengeance on those who "wronged" her, were reminders of Arya's own identity that she has never been able to give up.

 

You are missing the point - the entire push for Arya to leave the FM was because they told her to do something that she didn't want to do. A whole season and a half arc, undone because her target was nice to her.

That's not good writing. That's not progressive narrative involving a favored character. 

That, in a nutshell, is crap writing & a terrible story arc for a character that this show has utterly wasted for all of season 5 and so far, over half of 6

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13 minutes ago, TickTak7 said:

You are missing the point - the entire push for Arya to leave the FM was because they told her to do something that she didn't want to do. A whole season and a half arc, undone because her target was nice to her.

That's not good writing. That's not progressive narrative involving a favored character. 

That, in a nutshell, is crap writing & a terrible story arc for a character that this show has utterly wasted for all of season 5 and so far, over half of 6

Which "point" did I miss?  You stated, which I responded to, that

23 hours ago, TickTak7 said:

Her motivations have never been explained or explored, which is the very problem with this arc. We are all waiting for that big *REASON* that eventually pushes Arya back to the main plot, and that big *REASON* turns out to be..... a really good actor

It just doesn't jive at all. 

It's particularly disappointing when you consider how long Arya has been in Braavos, and how many scenes she's had in Braavos - it just all feels like a really bad mis-management of time. I agree with you - they could easily have worked in some different scenes to really help explain both Arya's narrative & her motivations. 

 

I highlighted the bolded, which you're now backing off from.  Arya does not leave because Lady Crane is a good actor...she leaves because "they told her to do something that she didn't want to do."  That is a big deal from a narrative perspective.  That is not crap writing and a terrible story arc.  In fact, it is probably a narrative line taken straight from the book.  Is that "crap writing" as well?  

The whole point of Arya's arc is that in the midst of "giving up" her identity in order to become "no one", she actually finds her identity in the process.  I found it a beautiful piece of writing (and a nice little detail mixed in), that during her conversation with Lady Crane/"Cersei", she mentions how the real Cersei would want revenge on those who killed Joffrey (nicely paralleling Arya's own desires with her list and those who killed Ned) and then further drives that home with the lie that "her father is waiting outside for her."  Arya is reclaiming her Stark identity, she does not want to do bad things to good people.  That is a progressive narrative in any sense of the word progressive and narrative.

But you just want to complain about it before her arc has even been finished.  I'll bet you that Arya has learned some serious skills from the Faceless Men, and that those will be used not only against the Waif in their fight but in the future.  Has the show done the best job of portraying that?  No, I think they spent too much time showing her getting her ass beat by the Waif in order to set up Arya finally defeating her here as more of a surprise.  

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Jaquen is far more sophisticated than any black and white [heh] interpretation.  He recognized Arya's depth of character from the start, and was truly set on end by her Zugzwang at Harrenhall.  He knows she will always be a Stark, but is successfully teaching her how to be no one. A rather useful survival skill for Starks these days. Her destiny and the interests of Bravos are compatible.  House of Black and White is far more than petty assassins of crooked moneylenders and jealous understudies.  He's playing a very long game.  The Waif has no clue.  She didn't make the grade for the complex actor the Faceless sought.  She was adequate for the routine journeyman work.  And now her usefulness comes to a close in one last object lesson for Arya's development.  Time to push Arya out of the nest.

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On 6/1/2016 at 11:21 AM, dbunting said:

Yep, the only mention as far as I know is the smith that Tywin found to melt down and reforge Ice after Ned's death.

Yeah, and what they did in the show was metallugic BS.  You can't just melt down a complex steel alloy forging, cast it in a mold and expect it to retain its special characteristics, be it strength, flexibility, capacity to hold an edge, ability to shatter White Walkers, whatever. There needed to be some Isengard-level hammering and flame leaping to pull that off. Heavy orchestration, more than Rains of Castamere.

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On 6/1/2016 at 5:28 PM, Trimula said:

I have not reply to a post in years, but this topic moves me.

From my understanding of the history of the first FM, he acted to rebel against the injustice of slavery.  it was not one man holding bondage over another man.  the injustice was one man sought to crush all the hope out of the slave; all the slave had left was his life, and even that was not enough anymore.  out of this despair, the first FM revenged the helpless, lifeless, and the hopeless.  their numbers grew, their fear spread, and freedom was attained.  A life must be paid for a life!  people who had given into despair/hopelessness didn't have gold to paid, the FM was their champion.  just look at Arya's mission given, it was always to remove someone who placed themselves beyond the reach of justice.  FM were never to just become hired killers, but to ensure the scales remain balance.   Jaquen final mission for  Arya was to see if she will just blindly kill without any compassion.  Arya saved Jaquen's life putting compassion over her fears; he saw the kindred spirit of a FM and offered to balance the scales.  Jaquen posed questions to Arya in her training; the waif just sought to crush the hope out of Arya.  Jaquen knows the waif is going to her death because she the payment for Arya's life to leave.

 

my 2 cents      

This.  Great post.

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After watching Episode 7 - The Broken Man - I felt it appropriate to return to this topic. 

We've debated for 5 pages about Arya's lack of progression, development, and evolution as a character, as well as the pointlessness of this entire FM story. 

In Episode 7, Arya is naively chatting up Westerosi, throwing around money, and is caught completely off guard by the assassin Waif. All of this despite her season and a half 's worth of training?

Can we just put this to bed once and for all, and admit that Arya hasn't grown as a character on the show, and this entire Faceless Men arc is terribly written and even more terribly executed? 

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1 hour ago, TickTak7 said:

After watching Episode 7 - The Broken Man - I felt it appropriate to return to this topic. 

We've debated for 5 pages about Arya's lack of progression, development, and evolution as a character, as well as the pointlessness of this entire FM story. 

In Episode 7, Arya is naively chatting up Westerosi, throwing around money, and is caught completely off guard by the assassin Waif. All of this despite her season and a half 's worth of training?

Can we just put this to bed once and for all, and admit that Arya hasn't grown as a character on the show, and this entire Faceless Men arc is terribly written and even more terribly executed? 

Alternatively, and we need to wait for the next episode, what if Arya was goading the FM into killing her?

She packs a pouch filled with blood beneath her shirt. Strolls through Braavos  as a rich girl. She's seen, heard and followed. Then she waits at a location without witnesses. The Waif punctures the pouch, not Arya, and sees blood.

Arya escapes, just in case the Waif cuts her throat, or tries to retrieve the body. To make sure the FM believe her dead, she's seen, again, in the streets of Braavos, agonizing.

She then goes to her refuge, wherever that is, tosses the blood pouch aside, grabs needle and boards that ship on the next morning

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3 hours ago, Pies are coming said:

Alternatively, and we need to wait for the next episode, what if Arya was goading the FM into killing her?

She packs a pouch filled with blood beneath her shirt. Strolls through Braavos  as a rich girl. She's seen, heard and followed. Then she waits at a location without witnesses. The Waif punctures the pouch, not Arya, and sees blood.

Arya escapes, just in case the Waif cuts her throat, or tries to retrieve the body. To make sure the FM believe her dead, she's seen, again, in the streets of Braavos, agonizing.

She then goes to her refuge, wherever that is, tosses the blood pouch aside, grabs needle and boards that ship on the next morning

Plausible and interesting idea. 

She legitimately looked wounded at the end of the episode though - if she was using some sort of pouch decoy, then surely she wouldn't be walking through the crowd favoring her abdomen? She'd just dump the pouch nearby the water, blend back into the crowd, and be on her way? 

Her simply leaving Braavos isn't a very satisfying end to what has been an awful season and a half story arc for her. No faces? No Faceless Men? No allies? No significant improvements to her character?

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14 hours ago, Pies are coming said:

Alternatively, and we need to wait for the next episode, what if Arya was goading the FM into killing her?

She packs a pouch filled with blood beneath her shirt. Strolls through Braavos  as a rich girl. She's seen, heard and followed. Then she waits at a location without witnesses. The Waif punctures the pouch, not Arya, and sees blood.

Arya escapes, just in case the Waif cuts her throat, or tries to retrieve the body. To make sure the FM believe her dead, she's seen, again, in the streets of Braavos, agonizing.

She then goes to her refuge, wherever that is, tosses the blood pouch aside, grabs needle and boards that ship on the next morning

And how would she know that the Waif would stab her in the abdomen and not in the heart? Or simply cut her throat? Even if she were to assume that the Waif would want to make her suffer, there are many more places you can stab someone to achieve just that apart from the stomach.

In my opinion, this is probably bad writing. They just wanted to make Arya's situation more dramatic (who cares that Areo Hotah and Roose died by one stab and this frail girl can survive two stabs and a cut?), the next episode she'll probably be healed.

The only other explanation I can think of is that Jaqen was Arya and lured out the Waif (way of walking, with his hands behind him, etc.); but then how does he plan on surviving the stabbing? And the last scene seems to imply it's Arya, not Jaqen.

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19 hours ago, Survivor92 said:

And how would she know that the Waif would stab her in the abdomen and not in the heart? Or simply cut her throat? Even if she were to assume that the Waif would want to make her suffer, there are many more places you can stab someone to achieve just that apart from the stomach.

In my opinion, this is probably bad writing. They just wanted to make Arya's situation more dramatic (who cares that Areo Hotah and Roose died by one stab and this frail girl can survive two stabs and a cut?), the next episode she'll probably be healed.

The only other explanation I can think of is that Jaqen was Arya and lured out the Waif (way of walking, with his hands behind him, etc.); but then how does he plan on surviving the stabbing? And the last scene seems to imply it's Arya, not Jaqen.

Her hearth may be covered as well.

But her neck isn't. Maybe she risked to put up a fight only if the Waif went to her throat? She shouldn't be able to survive the wounds, and she was acting too stupidly through the episode.

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