Jeyne Poole's purpose

[Lord Varys]

Assuming there has to be a blood sacrifice to bring Jon Snow back from the dead - what about having Melisandre burn her?

If she is believed to be 'Arya' she might be thought to be ideal for such a purpose, and the idea that Mel is going to sacrifice Shireen in Stannis' absence doesn't make much sense (for any purpose imaginable). From 

Spoiler

Theon 1 we know that she suffered pretty much from the cold already. So the girl actually arriving at the Wall might be barely alive, and unlikely to live through winter. An ideal sacrifice for 'a great cause'.

Has this ever been brought up by anybody yet? If not, it might be interesting to discuss the implications. Especially - heh, heh - if Jon actually ended up believing that his sister was burned alive to bring him back from the dead. That would be ... pretty devastating.

[Ruhail]

Thats would be something interesting and a weird twist of Nissa Nissa Varys. If this happened theres no way Jon would not behead Melly. 

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

Thats would be something interesting and a weird twist of Nissa Nissa Varys. If this happened theres no way Jon would not behead Melly. 

Well, first they would have to get his spirit back into his body, of course. And, well, we would have to see whether he then is able to talk or whether he howls. But once he recovers he might not be well-pleased.

But then, he would be back alive. What would you do if you had been brought back from the dead? Killing your savior would be a most ungrateful thing.

On the other hand, it would be a terrible loss (or at least felt as such). However, such a thing might give him the determination and the strength to continue with his mission.

And there must be a point to the whole plot of 

Spoiler

Theon preventing Jeyne to reveal her true identity to the Umbers, Stannis, or anyone. That only makes sense if it will be relevant to the plot that Jeyne will officially remain 'Arya Stark' until further notice. And the best reason for this is that she has to play some role yet as 'Arya Stark'.

By the way: If Jon Snow ever forges himself a Lightbringer his sacrifice should be the real Arya. Only that will be real sacrifice. Ghost, Val, Melisandre, or any other woman he might end up loving, desiring, sleeping with wouldn't do. It wouldn't be the greatest possible sacrifice. And thus it most likely wouldn't work.

[Tianzi]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Assuming there has to be a blood sacrifice to bring Jon Snow back from the dead - what about having Melisandre burn her?

If she is believed to be 'Arya' she might be thought to be ideal for such a purpose, and the idea that Mel is going to sacrifice Shireen in Stannis' absence doesn't make much sense (for any purpose imaginable). From 

  Reveal hidden contents

Theon 1 we know that she suffered pretty much from the cold already. So the girl actually arriving at the Wall might be barely alive, and unlikely to live through winter. An ideal sacrifice for 'a great cause'.

Has this ever been brought up by anybody yet? If not, it might be interesting to discuss the implications. Especially - heh, heh - if Jon actually ended up believing that his sister was burned alive to bring him back from the dead. That would be ... pretty devastating.

The bolded is the only good argument here, in my opinion.

I don't believe Jeyne Poole is any good for a sacrifice, if Mance Rayder's son wasn't (and she even refrained from burning Mance himself), Mel seems to have some insight into this. And I don't believe that Jeyne's not so great state makes her more likely to be killed off, quite the contrary - Martin isn't usually offing his physically damaged characters, but rather tends to keep his cripples, bastards and broken things around quite long, see: Bran, Theon, Jaime, etc.

I thought it was another thread of Jeyne Poole's WF storyline, lol.

[Jon Fossoway]

Can a Lord Commander execute someone out of pure vendetta? Would Jon do this?

I mean, Jon beheads Janos Slynt because the latter directly challenged his command. But apart from that, Jon has nominally no family nor allegiance save for the Night's Watch.

[Tianzi]

Well, I believe he nominally does have some control over who gets burned in NW castles.

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

The bolded is the only good argument here, in my opinion.

I don't believe Jeyne Poole is any good for a sacrifice, if Mance Rayder's son wasn't (and she even refrained from burning Mance himself), Mel seems to have some insight into this. And I don't believe that Jeyne's not so great state makes her more likely to be killed off, quite the contrary - Martin isn't usually offing his physically damaged characters, but rather tends to keep his cripples, bastards and broken things around quite long, see: Bran, Theon, Jaime, etc.

I thought it was another thread of Jeyne Poole's WF storyline, lol.

Sacrifices apparently are supposed to hurt the people who sacrifice them. Considering to sacrifice Edric Storm was a difficult decision for Stannis because the boy was a sacrifice. And if you want to go with the whole 'king's blood' angle then Jeyne as such blood, too, as long she is considered to be the sister of Robb Stark.

Some people have speculated that Jeyne might accompany Massey to Braavos and all, to hook up or be replaced by Arya (which would be weird and totally strange plot) but aside from that I've never read anything interesting about her future story.

And she is not really important to the plot anyway. However, for some strange reason her remaining 'Arya Stark' is. I always found that strange and really don't see an innate reason for this. And Theon actually killing Jeyne by insisting she keep up the charade (until such time as she no longer can reveal the truth) that was supposed to save her life would be a very great and fitting irony if you ask me.

[Jon Fossoway]

Just now, Tianzi said:

Well, I believe he nominally does have some control over who gets burned in NW castles.

Think he was overpowered on that call.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

Interesting idea, but I sincerely hope it does not happen. Poor Jeyne has suffered more than enough without the final ignominy of being burned alive... 

One question though - Mel's previous burnings were all done with Stannis's assent, but on whose authority would Mel burn Jeyne? With Jon's "death", there is no Lord Commander, and Stannis and Mance are absent and therefore unable to grant permission. Those who remain and are in quasi positions of power seem unlikely to grant permission, for varying reasons. 

Is Alys Karstark still at Castle Black, or has she returned to Karhold? She is the only person I can think of who is still conceivably at Castle Black with the potential to identify Jeyne as not Arya. 

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Interesting idea, but I sincerely hope it does not happen. Poor Jeyne has suffered more than enough without the final ignominy of being burned alive... 

One question though - Mel's previous burnings were all done with Stannis's assent, but on whose authority would Mel burn Jeyne? With Jon's "death", there is no Lord Commander, and Stannis and Mance are absent and therefore unable to grant permission. Those who remain and are in quasi positions of power seem unlikely to grant permission, for varying reasons. 

Is Alys Karstark still at Castle Black, or has she returned to Karhold? She is the only person I can think of who is still conceivably at Castle Black with the potential to identify Jeyne as not Arya. 

The idea only makes sense if there is a series of events causing some sort of blood sacrifice to bring Jon Snow back. If that works in a different way then it wouldn't be necessary. I must say, I don't see any good reason why anyone should want to bring Jon Snow back even if it turned out that this was possible. His death should have buried all underlying chances/ideas that he might be 'special'.

However, I think Jeyne-Arya makes a much better and finer sacrifice than Shireen if there is a sacrifice scenario. Shireen can be burned by Stannis at a later time.

And it doesn't have to be a burning, necessarily. Could also be a throat-cutting or whatever other way blood sacrifices can work.

[Sensenmenn]

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Assuming there has to be a blood sacrifice to bring Jon Snow back from the dead - what about having Melisandre burn her?

If she is believed to be 'Arya' she might be thought to be ideal for such a purpose, and the idea that Mel is going to sacrifice Shireen in Stannis' absence doesn't make much sense (for any purpose imaginable). From 

  Reveal hidden contents

Theon 1 we know that she suffered pretty much from the cold already. So the girl actually arriving at the Wall might be barely alive, and unlikely to live through winter. An ideal sacrifice for 'a great cause'.

Has this ever been brought up by anybody yet? If not, it might be interesting to discuss the implications. Especially - heh, heh - if Jon actually ended up believing that his sister was burned alive to bring him back from the dead. That would be ... pretty devastating.

You just don't want shireen to die, get over it! shes already a walking corps. Besides the magical properties of greyscale may help with Jons rebirth. 

[Nevets]

I'm not buying this at all.  Other than frostbite, she seems quite healthy, if a bit beat up.  I do think GRRM will keep her around as a "broken thing", though more mentally than physically.  I suspect she has a sufficiently strong sense of self-preservation to insist that she is not Arya Stark if she finds herself being measured for sacrifice.  With discrepancies in description to boot.  "My sister did not have brown eyes."

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Some people have speculated that Jeyne might accompany Massey to Braavos and all, to hook up or be replaced by Arya (which would be weird and totally strange plot) but aside from that I've never read anything interesting about her future story.

And she is not really important to the plot anyway. However, for some strange reason her remaining 'Arya Stark' is. I always found that strange and really don't see an innate reason for this. And Theon actually killing Jeyne by insisting she keep up the charade (until such time as she no longer can reveal the truth) that was supposed to save her life would be a very great and fitting irony if you ask me.

I think she will go to Braavos and run into Arya.  Finding her identity stolen could be an interesting experience for Arya.  She also knows things about Littlefinger that Sansa might find interesting.  Her being forced to work in his brothel, for instance.  And I'd like to know who whipped her and why.

[Tianzi]

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sacrifices apparently are supposed to hurt the people who sacrifice them. Considering to sacrifice Edric Storm was a difficult decision for Stannis because the boy was a sacrifice. And if you want to go with the whole 'king's blood' angle then Jeyne as such blood, too, as long she is considered to be the sister of Robb Stark.

Well, but Jeyne is not Arya, so this sacrifice just shouldn't work. Otherwise you could just do a grill and later tell your target 'hey, I just burned your sister!'.

34 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Think he was overpowered on that call.

Yup, only after Mel burning Jeyne, he could technically pull an 'insolence in my castle!' angle rather than a pure vendetta.

[Fox of House McCloud]

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sacrifices apparently are supposed to hurt the people who sacrifice them. Considering to sacrifice Edric Storm was a difficult decision for Stannis because the boy was a sacrifice. And if you want to go with the whole 'king's blood' angle then Jeyne as such blood, too, as long she is considered to be the sister of Robb Stark.

Yeah, but is Jon really sacrificing her? He has absolutely no influence on the decision because, y'know, he's dead. And would Jeyne actually count as having "king's blood"? Yes, she's pretending to be Arya at the moment (would she keep that deception up upon reaching the Wall?), but that doesn't actually make her blood any closer to Robb's...

And considering she (and Theon) are with Stannis right now, how/why do they end up back at the wall without him and his army?

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And she is not really important to the plot anyway. However, for some strange reason her remaining 'Arya Stark' is. I always found that strange and really don't see an innate reason for this. And Theon actually killing Jeyne by insisting she keep up the charade (until such time as she no longer can reveal the truth) that was supposed to save her life would be a very great and fitting irony if you ask me.

Perhaps I'm forgetting some tidbits since I last read ADWD, but is she really really remaining Arya? She is still pretending to be Arya within Winterfell (obviously) and the last we see of her after that is at the end of Asha's final chapter, where she isn't formally introduced at all...

I don't think Theon will insist she keeps up her charade - what purpose would there be? They fled from Winterfell, and if they were captured by Ramsay, it probably wouldn't matter - Theon would be killed (I can't imagine him surviving Ramsay's wrath here... although Ramsay does ask for him back in the Pink Letter), and Jeyne would just be forced to play the part of Arya again. Would she need to pretend around Stannis? Or those at the Wall? I can't really think of why, but perhaps I'm missing some aspect of what you're saying.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea only makes sense if there is a series of events causing some sort of blood sacrifice to bring Jon Snow back. If that works in a different way then it wouldn't be necessary. I must say, I don't see any good reason why anyone should want to bring Jon Snow back even if it turned out that this was possible. His death should have buried all underlying chances/ideas that he might be 'special'.

However, I think Jeyne-Arya makes a much better and finer sacrifice than Shireen if there is a sacrifice scenario. Shireen can be burned by Stannis at a later time.

And it doesn't have to be a burning, necessarily. Could also be a throat-cutting or whatever other way blood sacrifices can work.

Well, I also do not see the need to bring Jon back, but that is more from a "stabbed is not dead, cold preserves" perspective rather than a "Jon is not special" perspective . 

The various sacrifices and resurrections we have seen so far have had varying degrees of efficacy. If a blood sacrifice resurrection of Jon is needed and attempted, there is no guarantee it will work, especially in Mel's hands, where nothing ever goes quite as planned. I do agree Shireen would not be an appropriate sacrifice for Jon, unless it was Stannis sacrificing her to save Jon. After all, Dany had to sacrifice Rhaego to save Drogo, and even that did not work out as planned. Although Dany did get three dragons out of it in the end, so who knows...

[Good Guy Garlan]

2 hours ago, Tianzi said:

I thought it was another thread of Jeyne Poole's WF storyline, lol.

Me too. I'm slightly disappointed. 

It's an interesting idea, but I think Mel would go down the chain of the more...expendable people before burning the sister of the Lord Commander, aka the one person who can kick Selyse and Mel out if he so desires, and the one hope they have of unifying the North against the Boltons. 

If you ask me, I'd say the list of people with some measure of king's blood (however misguided) from more burnable to least, from Mel's perspective, would be:

- Val

- "Mance's" son

- Gerrick Kingsblood

- Gerrick's daughters

- "Arya", aka Jeyne Poole

- Axell Florent

- Selyse 

- Shireen

[BloodWood]

So far Jeyne's impact has been external to herself. She has served to move plot forward for two other characters: Theon to give him the final courage to escape from Ramsay, and Jon, to motivate him to disregard his Nights Watch duties to save his sister, giving his opposition the final push they needed to decide and assassinate him. I never really considered her story going much further.

But, now that you've got me thinking...

If anything, it will be Stannis who uses her, thinking she's Arya, as a way to rally together the North. He tried with Jon, and Jon turned him down. Now he has a Stark who is already fully legitimate.

I don't see her becoming a sacrifice. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

Martin needed to keep the charade up for plot integrity purposes. If Stannis learned immediately that it was not the real Arya he would have reacted differently to this plot development, and he would not have sent the Mormont girl back to the Wall as company for "Lady Arya". I suspect there is a broader purpose to that. Likely Mormont will need to be a witness to Jon's resurrection, along with the Mountain Clan lords who are currently at the Wall, and maybe Alys Karstark if she is still there.

Especially if Mormont has insight into Robb's will, which she might well have through contact with Maege.

I realise you believe Stannis has to stick around long enough to burn Shirreen himself, but I am not convinced by this. And Jeyne does not meet the criteria of a blood sacrifice, having no king's blood and not being a relation of Jon's.

 

[The Drunkard]

I think it's more likely she'll just end up in Braavos and act as a catalyst for Arya to get back to Westeros, but in terms of its implications...

If she burns, and it works, and the truth hasn't been revealed when people are contemplating a Shireen sacrifice, this could tide them over.

If she burns, and it works, but the truth has been revealed by the time people are contemplating a Shireen sacrifice, this would seriously damage Mel's credibility (why burn Shireen if some random peasant works as well as a Stark?).

Also I question if Mel would be in the mindset required to do this, if she thinks Stannis is dead and their cause lost.

[Lord Varys]

The point is, of course, that non-king's blood blood sacrifices work, too. Proven by Mirri Maz Duur herself, at least in a sense, and also by Alester Florent (whose sacrifice helped Melisandre create a magical wind), those poor former slaves Moqorro and Victarion burned, and also by the people Euron is going to sacrifice soon (aside from Aeron and his unborn child who might have 'king's blood' if the Greyjoy blood is 'kingly').

Mel might sell the idea to people that the girl being 'Arya' is important. Or not. It is not that she would not burn people pretending to be other people, right (e.g. given Mance and Rattleshirt). And there are ways to prevent the truth from getting out if Mel herself knows the truth.

The focus of this 'magically' is not necessarily the 'king's blood' angle. It is the sacrifice angle. A true sacrifice has to hurt. And the loss of his beloved sister would certainly be a sacrifice for Jon Snow.

It is not that those sacrifices have to be consciously done. Think about it. Dany did not consciously choose to sacrfice Rhaego yet the spell/magic/demons/whatever still took his life, either intentionally or unintentionally. If that can work with Dany/Rhaego/Drogo then it could also work with Jeyne and Jon. And the rationale behind that would be that Jon Snow

@Free Northman Reborn

The important person in the 'Arya' plot is Jeyne, not Alysane Mormont. Stannis could still have sent Massey and Alysane to the Wall without the Jeyne girl if he knew the truth. He sends Massey to the Wall because of the deal with the banker, not because of anything else.

There is a story-/plot-related purpose to Jeyne not revealing who she actually is. And if a lie is upheld long enough then it is difficult to get back to the truth. Not to mention that anyone threatened to be killed/burn alive would claim or say anything to convince people not to kill her. There is no good rational reason for Jeyne not to tell Stannis who she actually is. He wouldn't kill her - in fact, it could help his cause if Jeyne Poole told her story to North and the Realm exposing the Lannisters/Boltons as liars.

Theon just likes to fool people and/or thinks he has no chance of surviving if people learn that they/he saved a fake.

@Fox of House McCloud

You would have to read Theon 1 to know what I'm referring to.

8 hours ago, Sensenmenn said:

You just don't want shireen to die, get over it! shes already a walking corps. Besides the magical properties of greyscale may help with Jons rebirth. 

I don't want Shireen to die but I do think she will die. But it will be Stannis who sacrifices her, not Melisandre or her mother. And certainly for some weirdo spell to bring back Jon Snow.

I'm also not convinced that there needs to be a blood sacrifice - but it is, this is really a much better than some girl (and Shireen is essentially just 'some girl' with no significance or meaning or connection to Jon Snow). Jeyne Poole is not. He would still feel guilty if he knew it was her who died to bring him back and not Arya. And that is a good thing, narratively.

Jon's spirit itself should be off in Ghost in any case. It would just be to bring back his body.