Is the Valonqar a red herring?

[Lady bonehead]

I've never liked the Valonqar setup, but it seems like it has to mean something.  My explanation is simple: a word can have multiple, unrelated meanings in the same language, so maybe this one also meant something else in Valyrian.  Maybe at some point someone will consult an unabridged Valyrian-Common Tongue dictionary and learn the real truth.  For example, consider the following quote (ACOK):

"Cressen no longer recalled the name the Asshai'i gave the leaf, or the Lysene poisoners the crystal. In the Citadel, it was simply called the strangler. Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man's throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe. They said a victim's face turned as purple as the little crystal seed from which his death was grown, but so too did a man choking on a morsel of food."

So for example "valonqar" could be the name of a poison.  Later, when Cressen is poisoned, "Iron fingers tightened around his neck".  So the "hands at the throat" bit could be metaphorical, not literal.  I like this one because it leaves open the possibility that Cersei might be a suicide, which I think is actually likely.  However, it's also possible that "Valonqar" is what the Valyrians called the Faceless Men.

[House Mosse]

I have always assumed the valonqar is Jaime. It means younger brother, and Cersie assumed this referred to Tyrion, but Jaime is 10 minutes younger than her.

[Lady bonehead]

47 minutes ago, House Mosse said:

I have always assumed the valonqar is Jaime. It means younger brother, and Cersie assumed this referred to Tyrion, but Jaime is 10 minutes younger than her.

I don't think Jaime will make it back to KL except maybe at the very end if he survives that long

[Amris]

4 hours ago, Lady bonehead said:

[snip]

So for example "valonqar" could be the name of a poison.  Later, when Cressen is poisoned, "Iron fingers tightened around his neck".  So the "hands at the throat" bit could be metaphorical, not literal.  I like this one because it leaves open the possibility that Cersei might be a suicide, which I think is actually likely.  However, it's also possible that "Valonqar" is what the Valyrians called the Faceless Men.

Nice one.

Another possibility is the Hand's Chain of Office (made of interlinking hands) could be wrapped around her neck to strangle her with (like in Shae's case).

I have even wondered if maybe the Witch simply got her vision wrong and confused Cersei with Shae.

[House Mosse]

Yeah, possibly. Not sure we can predict what's going to happen with Jaime though, and him throttling Cersie would have a certain Martinesque poetry to it. Having siad that, it might be a bit too obvious for George. The prophesy says

"And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.^[2]"

and Jaime only has one hand, although he does have a gold one also. Prophesy tends not to be direct and to work metaphorically, so maybe he could involved from a distance, arranging with Lady Stoneheart for her to drink The Strangler or something?

One other thought - Tommen is also a little brother.

[House Mosse]

I reckon it probably does mean little brother though. I think it would be a bit of a cheat, or somewhat deus ex machina, to solve the riddle by simply saying "oh, it actually means something else".

[House Mosse]

It does sound a bit suicidey now you mention it though.

 

28 minutes ago, Amris said:

Another possibility is the Hand's Chain of Office (made of interlinking hands) could be wrapped around her neck to strangle her with (like in Shae's case).

This idea is interesting.

[Zage Exrop]

It says valonqar i cant recall the exact prophecy but was it worded as her valonqar? if not it could be any other little brother(e.g Sandor when he beats Gregor in Cleganebowl) resulting in Cersei losing her trial by combat, and metaphorically the little brother of Gregor wrapped his hands around her.

 

*Disclaimer i dont actually believe this but i found it quite interesting

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

25 minutes ago, Zage Exrop said:

It says valonqar i cant recall the exact prophecy but was it worded as her valonqar?

It wasn't, and it's not gonna be.

25 minutes ago, Zage Exrop said:

if not it could be any other little brother

Certainly not. If "the valonqar" could mean "any little brother", then Maggy the Frog could have just substituted that word with, say, "some guy". There's almost no information contained in "any little brother". Not to mention the valonqar is not supposed to kill her metaphorically, but completely literally, by wrapping his hands around her throat. Maggy the Frog doesn't do "metaphorically", she's not rutting Patchface, Maggy the Frog tells it straight.

The answer gets quite clear, however, if only you remove Cersei's didascalia and leave the raw text:

... "Will the king and I have children?"

"Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Or, "You will have three kids. They will all die. Then the little brother will kill you". Tommen, obviously.

For those perplexed by the sequence of events, Tommen first dying and then killing Cersei, I recommend a reread of the prologue of the series.

[Ebrose]

5 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

It wasn't, and it's not gonna be.

Certainly not. If "the valonqar" could mean "any little brother", then Maggy the Frog could have just substituted that word with, say, "some guy". There's almost no information contained in "any little brother". Not to mention the valonqar is not supposed to kill her metaphorically, but completely literally, by wrapping his hands around her throat. Maggy the Frog doesn't do "metaphorically", she's not rutting Patchface, Maggy the Frog tells it straight.

The answer gets quite clear, however, if only you remove Cersei's didascalia and leave the raw text:

... "Will the king and I have children?"

"Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Or, "You will have three kids. They will all die. Then the little brother will kill you". Tommen, obviously.

For those perplexed by the sequence of events, Tommen first dying and then killing Cersei, I recommend a reread of the prologue of the series.

That's quite interesting.. never thought of Tommen being the valonqar. It kind of makes sense

[Curled Finger]

But Tommen is only like 8 years old in universe?  Maybe he can use The Strangler then.   

I approach all the prophesy as warned.  Nothing says this part of the prophesy will even come true since 2 of 3 of Cersei's kids are still alive 5 books out.  Mycella even survived an assassination attempt.    

Really, 5 books, 1 fire, 1 dead golden crowned child...Dany is warned off of every person she may come in contact with.  Take it with a grain of salt. 

[Narvi]

It doesn't have to mean her brother.  My money is on Loras.

[Amris]

21 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

It wasn't, and it's not gonna be.

Certainly not. If "the valonqar" could mean "any little brother", then Maggy the Frog could have just substituted that word with, say, "some guy". There's almost no information contained in "any little brother". Not to mention the valonqar is not supposed to kill her metaphorically, but completely literally, by wrapping his hands around her throat. Maggy the Frog doesn't do "metaphorically", she's not rutting Patchface, Maggy the Frog tells it straight.

The answer gets quite clear, however, if only you remove Cersei's didascalia and leave the raw text:

... "Will the king and I have children?"

"Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Or, "You will have three kids. They will all die. Then the little brother will kill you". Tommen, obviously.

For those perplexed by the sequence of events, Tommen first dying and then killing Cersei, I recommend a reread of the prologue of the series.

Nice possibility!

Although 'quite clear' is a pretty massive overstatement.

[Amris]

I have a question for you guys and gals:

Maggy gives the whole of her prophecy in the common tongue and only for the word 'little brother' uses Valyrian.

Why this sudden change of language? And why only for this one term?

I have my opinion on that of course. But whould like to hear yours.

[Lady bonehead]

19 hours ago, Amris said:

I have a question for you guys and gals:

Maggy gives the whole of her prophecy in the common tongue and only for the word 'little brother' uses Valyrian.

Why this sudden change of language? And why only for this one term?

I have my opinion on that of course. But whould like to hear yours.

That's why I think it means something other than little brother, because in that case why not just say "little brother"?  If it means something more esoteric it makes more sense.

[Let Them Eat Crow]

On 6/1/2016 at 2:17 AM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

 

"Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Or, "You will have three kids. They will all die. Then the little brother will kill you". Tommen, obviously.

For those perplexed by the sequence of events, Tommen first dying and then killing Cersei, I recommend a reread of the prologue of the series.

That's exactly what I keep coming back to. Tommen becomes a wight and then strangles his own mother. It's the most direct reading of the prophecy and the most horrible way for Cersei to die.

[Amris]

2 hours ago, Lady bonehead said:

That's why I think it means something other than little brother, because in that case why not just say "little brother"?  If it means something more esoteric it makes more sense.

Certainly would explain it. I personally think that the Valyrian is a hint at the 'little brother' being of Valyrian descent.

[Reach]

1 hour ago, Amris said:

Certainly would explain it. I personally think that the Valyrian is a hint at the 'little brother' being of Valyrian descent.

You raise a good point about the use of the Valyrian term being used. In that context, who are the candidates? I guess Tyrion, the little brother and secret Targ, is the obvious candidate?

If you subscribe to the theory that it could be any little brother, that really opens things up. If Aegon was really Aegon, he'd technically be a little brother and a Targ. If he's a Blackfyre, then he'd still be of Valyrian descent, but we'd have no idea about whether he's a little brother. And I can't see him getting an opportunity to literally choke her (although it could be symbolism). So unlikely.

After the events of this week, I can think of another little brother, who looks increasingly important to the story, who has a fascination with Valyria and even owns Valyrian armour. A lot of people think he'll come in contact with Cersei, giving him opportunity. But he (Euron) would have to be a very longshot. He's not actually Valyrian (that we know of) and I can't really see Maggie the Witch referring to him as little brother as that's not his defining characteristic. So, although he came to mind, I don't really think it will be him.

I'd previously been a believer in Cleganebowl being part of this, with the rope choking the life from her after losing Trial by Combat, but I've waned in this belief over the last year or so. I guess I really don't have a preferred candidate at the moment. But I do think it will be something more subtle than Tyrion. 

 

[Amris]

1 minute ago, Reach said:

You raise a good point about the use of the Valyrian term being used. In that context, who are the candidates? I guess Tyrion, the little brother and secret Targ, is the obvious candidate?

If you subscribe to the theory that it could be any little brother, that really opens things up. If Aegon was really Aegon, he'd technically be a little brother and a Targ. If he's a Blackfyre, then he'd still be of Valyrian descent, but we'd have no idea about whether he's a little brother. And I can't see him getting an opportunity to literally choke her (although it could be symbolism). So unlikely.

After the events of this week, I can think of another little brother, who looks increasingly important to the story, who has a fascination with Valyria and even owns Valyrian armour. A lot of people think he'll come in contact with Cersei, giving him opportunity. But he (Euron) would have to be a very longshot. He's not actually Valyrian (that we know of) and I can't really see Maggie the Witch referring to him as little brother as that's not his defining characteristic. So, although he came to mind, I don't really think it will be him.

I'd previously been a believer in Cleganebowl being part of this, with the rope choking the life from her after losing Trial by Combat, but I've waned in this belief over the last year or so. I guess I really don't have a preferred candidate at the moment. But I do think it will be something more subtle than Tyrion. 

 

Hm. Never thought about Aegon in this context. Good idea!

Technically Aegon would be Rhaenys' little brother if he were real. If he were a Blackfyre he would still be a 'would-be' Rhaenys' bro - which might be enough for the prophecy. Or not.

Tommen would be of Valyrian descent if Jaime and Cersei were Aerys' kids which is a theory I like but which may turn out to be wrong. What very much speaks against Tommen as valonqar is that according to the same prophecy Tommen is supposed to die before Cersei. Now Ferocious Feld Roarer's idea that Tommen would then come back as a wight and strangle Cersei after his own death is pretty cool. But is it likely? I don't know. It sounds a little out there if you ask me. But surprises do happen.

Tyrion is an obvious possibility. Again the Valyrian word would kind of hint at Aerys' poaching in someone else's territory. There are a number of clues in that direction but again we do not really know. You are right that Tyrion wouldn't be a very subtle choice. On the other hand if Tyrion turned out to be a Targ, dragonrider and killer of Cersei that would streamline the story which might not necessarily be a bad thing.

Jaime is my fav candidate for so many reasons. Not least his love-hate relationship with Cersei. Here too the Valyrian word - to me - would be a clue pointing to him being Aerys'. Still it rests on unproven assumptions and may be completely wrong.

Even Dany would be a possibility if we assume that valonqar - like dragon - is a gender-neutral term in Valyrian.

What the Valyrian word rules out - in my opinion - is the more out-there candidates from non-Valyrian families.

 

 

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

Yes I had thought about the Strangler poison too, either given to her or taken by herself because she has nothing left if her children are all gone.

During the seige at Kingslanding, she was prepared to die rather than be taken by Stannis' men.  

“Stannis may take the city and he may take the throne, but I will not suffer him to judge me. I do not mean for him to have us alive.”