Renly and Stannis were in a lose-lose situation at Storm's End

[James Steller]

It occurs to me that even if Stannis didn't send a shadow-baby to murder him in his own tent, Renly would have been put into a position which brands him a kinslayer. Especially if he meets Stannis in combat and is forced to personally kill him (as to which of them would win in a fight is debatable, assuming Stannis isn't drained from helping to make a shadow-baby). But assuming that Loras or someone else is the one who kills Stannis, Renly is still guilty of kinslaying in the eyes of the Gods. Which means his reputation plummets in the eyes of those who are devout. It gives his enemies a stick to beat him with, a label to stick on him that's almost as bad as Jaime Lannister's label, and it will turn potential allies away from him.

And of course, Stannis might have gotten super lucky and killed Renly in honest combat, but then he would either fall in combat as well or he would somehow win, but also have to deal with the label of kinslayer.

[Nyrhex]

No one cares. Renly was in open rebellion and made it clear he was going to place his nephew's head on a spike, when at the time the worst anyone knew of the kid was maybe that he was a spoiled little shit. George' writing has people give a shit when it's plot-convinient, and not when it's not. At Storm's End, no one cared if either of the two died in combat, and they had some pretty devout people there (off the top of my head, Hasty and the Holy Hundred, who later go and fight for R'hllor woshipping Stannis on the Blackwater).

[The Grey Wolf]

Yeah, Cat really put that whole thing in perspective. (Paraphrasing): "I'd lock the two of you up in a room until you remembered you were brothers" I mean, sheesh, even the real-life House of York (the obvious inspiration for the Baratheon brothers, minus Edmund of Rutland, poor guy always gets forgotten) weren't that dysfunctional.

Also, while on that topic does anyone else think Stannis could have won if they had fought a conventional battle at dawn like they were supposed to? I remember reading off the board someone claiming that the battle was being foreshadowed to be a Nagashino with bows taking the place of guns in Stannis's favor.

[Minstral]

16 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Also, while on that topic does anyone else think Stannis could have won if they had fought a conventional battle at dawn like they were supposed to? I remember reading off the board someone claiming that the battle was being foreshadowed to be a Nagashino with bows taking the place of guns in Stannis's favor.

I doubt it. I think that Tarly was being cautious for good reason about the timing of the battle, but probably even he was confident in victory. Stannis's forces were arrayed and could have probably held a strong defensive position, but he could have still suffered Storm's End organizing sallies. Though I have always resisted the idea that Stannis losing was always a forgone conclusion, as supposedly the battles of Crecy and Agincourt were supposed to be a forgone conclusion.

[John Doe]

I don't get it either, Renly could have avoided the situation easily.

[Ruhail]

I doubt Renly would have personally fought or been that involved in the battle he would have just sent Loras to do it all for him.

[Sullen]

9 hours ago, James Steller said:

It occurs to me that even if Stannis didn't send a shadow-baby to murder him in his own tent, Renly would have been put into a position which brands him a kinslayer. Especially if he meets Stannis in combat and is forced to personally kill him (as to which of them would win in a fight is debatable, assuming Stannis isn't drained from helping to make a shadow-baby). But assuming that Loras or someone else is the one who kills Stannis, Renly is still guilty of kinslaying in the eyes of the Gods. Which means his reputation plummets in the eyes of those who are devout. It gives his enemies a stick to beat him with, a label to stick on him that's almost as bad as Jaime Lannister's label, and it will turn potential allies away from him.

And of course, Stannis might have gotten super lucky and killed Renly in honest combat, but then he would either fall in combat as well or he would somehow win, but also have to deal with the label of kinslayer.

Nah, Renly is careful about his image, he can claim self-defence, that Stannis attacked him first and didn't want to back down. (Which is entirely true)

[Jimmy is not No One]

2 hours ago, Sullen said:

Nah, Renly is careful about his image, he can claim self-defence, that Stannis attacked him first and didn't want to back down. (Which is entirely true)

I don't think people (in world) would view it that way.  Most would view it as two rebellious king pretenders attacking each other. Both would be viewed poorly.  Iirc, Renly never said that cersies kids were bastards.  He basically said "who is king should be decided by who is the most popular... Me."  So his claim is or will be viewed as illegitimate and vain.  Stannis at least said that joff was a bastard and therefore he was the rightful ruler.  But ppl in world generally dislike stannis so eventually he will be viewed in a negative light as well.  technically renly is considered "rebelling" against both the crown and his older brother.  So I don't think ppl would view stannis as the instigator.  I think they would look at renly as attacking stannis.

[Winter's Cold]

4 minutes ago, Jimmy is not No One said:

I don't think people (in world) would view it that way.  Most would view it as two rebellious king pretenders attacking each other. Both would be viewed poorly.  Iirc, Renly never said that cersies kids were bastards.  He basically said "who is king should be decided by who is the most popular... Me."  So his claim is or will be viewed as illegitimate and vain.  Stannis at least said that joff was a bastard and therefore he was the rightful ruler.  But ppl in world generally dislike stannis so eventually he will be viewed in a negative light as well.  technically renly is considered "rebelling" against both the crown and his older brother.  So I don't think ppl would view stannis as the instigator.  I think they would look at renly as attacking stannis.

Renly is rebelling against the Crown only. He has no obligations to obey Stannis since Stannis is neither the Lord of Storm's End nor the King on the Iron Throne. Renly also declared himself King before Stannis did so his declaration was definitely not a challenge to Stannis.

[Sullen]

8 minutes ago, Jimmy is not No One said:

I don't think people (in world) would view it that way.  Most would view it as two rebellious king pretenders attacking each other. Both would be viewed poorly.  Iirc, Renly never said that cersies kids were bastards.  He basically said "who is king should be decided by who is the most popular... Me."  So his claim is or will be viewed as illegitimate and vain.  Stannis at least said that joff was a bastard and therefore he was the rightful ruler.  But ppl in world generally dislike stannis so eventually he will be viewed in a negative light as well.  technically renly is considered "rebelling" against both the crown and his older brother.  So I don't think ppl would view stannis as the instigator.  I think they would look at renly as attacking stannis.

Renly is rebelling against the Crown due to Joffrey and Cersei breaking the feudal contract by overthrowing and executing the rightful regent, he was in danger, therefore he took action. This "Whoever is most popular/competent should be king" business comes from the show.

Also, people don't Renly as rebelling against or attacking Stannis because no one gives credence to his claim, and Renly crowned himself before he did in any case.

[Boarsbane]

19 minutes ago, Jimmy is not No One said:

I don't think people (in world) would view it that way.  Most would view it as two rebellious king pretenders attacking each other. Both would be viewed poorly.  Iirc, Renly never said that cersies kids were bastards.  He basically said "who is king should be decided by who is the most popular... Me."  So his claim is or will be viewed as illegitimate and vain.  Stannis at least said that joff was a bastard and therefore he was the rightful ruler.  But ppl in world generally dislike stannis so eventually he will be viewed in a negative light as well.  technically renly is considered "rebelling" against both the crown and his older brother.  So I don't think ppl would view stannis as the instigator.  I think they would look at renly as attacking stannis.

Most people in Westeros wouldn't care who attacked who and regardless the victor can spin whatever story he wants later. Renly was always more beloved than Stannis by pretty much everyone, high or low born and that's even before Stannis starts consorting with a foreign priestess. It's easy for people to like Renly, Stannis on the other hand not so much. 

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Pretty much.

 

Please remember that they were both put in a bad situation. Renly knew he was on Cersei's hitlist after Robert died nd Ned was arrested, he needed somebody else on the throne. No candidates (yet), and the only way to get the backing of the Tyrells was by making Margaery a queen. So he rebelled, despite not knowing about the twincest.

Stannis knew about the twincest, but was too slow to spread the news. By the time he and Renly could have discussed the issue and worked something out, Renly was already committed. I'm sure Renly would have followed Stannis otherwise, but that was already impossible.

[Minsc]

23 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Also, while on that topic does anyone else think Stannis could have won if they had fought a conventional battle at dawn like they were supposed to? I remember reading off the board someone claiming that the battle was being foreshadowed to be a Nagashino with bows taking the place of guns in Stannis's favor.

No.  There is absolutely no mention of Stannis having any archers of note to make them anywhere the equivalent of guns.  Furthermore, at Nagashino the side that won had more than double the numbers of the losing side while Stannis is at best a fourth the size of Renly's forces while having an enemy to the rear.  Nor is there any stream to slow down Renly's forces at Storm's End.