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Aeron's second vision:the woman with hands of white fire


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2 hours ago, LmL said:

I love this reference and parallel, and I don't think it rules out krakens. Euron already uses storms to aid him which he summons with blood magic, and the krakens may be summoned with blood magic too. I wouldn't be surprised to see both.

I really like the idea of Mallora conspiring with Euron somehow... that would be sinister. We know almost nothing solid about the Hightowers and what we do know evokes mystery and suspicion. 

Me too!  By the way, I think your proposal that the shadow woman = Mel because of the several pale flame text references you pointed out also makes a huge amount of sense (well done!).  

I like Mal a bit more, however, because she has the most room to be "sinister".  Mel's POV seems to make her "feel" like more of a Greek tragic figure, doomed to prophetic visions but unable to properly interpret them. Then there there are the logistics issues of getting Mel all the way from the Wall to Euron, especially as she has some plot check-boxes to cross off like burning Shireen.  Aso, I just can't see how the character's headspace is going to think, I should ally with Euron even though he's been sacrificing some of my colleagues and wants to kill my god.  But GRRM is a great writer and I'm sure he can figure out satisfying explanations to all of these concerns and make a Mel-Euron teamup compelling fiction.

Dany makes some sense from a thematic point of view -- especially if you're betting she's going to have a heel turn in tWoW and there is again a Elizabethan historical analogy you could make (and GRRM probably already used some Elizabeth with Dany and Daario ~ Elizabeth and the flamboyant Robert "The Gypsy" Dudley) -- but she's not tall and Euron seems on a plot track to be her outright antagonist rather than frenemy.  Plus, there is already a ton of dislike for Dany already and if GRRM pairs her outright with Euron the child molester then he runs the risk of the casual reader hating the character so much that they overlook whatever complexity GRRM is trying to explore in her character.  Of course, the vision could just be Euron's view of the world (a POV within a POV) but I don't think GRRM would introduce a clear mystery to the reader with the answer being lol, fooled ya', it was all bullshit.

Mal is kind of a blank slate and I think the story could use a female villain on the level of a Euron, Ramsay, or Roose.  Plus, the Hightowers need a "big" character to match the importance of their House.  Finally, a Hightower-Greyjoy alliance would open up a lot of plot possibilities without making his arc all about magic.  

Regardless, let's keep our fingers crossed for krakens!  

 

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6 hours ago, nategator said:

 

Me too!  By the way, I think your proposal that the shadow woman = Mel because of the several pale flame text references you pointed out also makes a huge amount of sense (well done!).  

I like Mal a bit more, however, because she has the most room to be "sinister".  Mel's POV seems to make her "feel" like more of a Greek tragic figure, doomed to prophetic visions but unable to properly interpret them. Then there there are the logistics issues of getting Mel all the way from the Wall to Euron, especially as she has some plot check-boxes to cross off like burning Shireen.  Aso, I just can't see how the character's headspace is going to think, I should ally with Euron even though he's been sacrificing some of my colleagues and wants to kill my god.  But GRRM is a great writer and I'm sure he can figure out satisfying explanations to all of these concerns and make a Mel-Euron teamup compelling fiction.

Dany makes some sense from a thematic point of view -- especially if you're betting she's going to have a heel turn in tWoW and there is again a Elizabethan historical analogy you could make (and GRRM probably already used some Elizabeth with Dany and Daario ~ Elizabeth and the flamboyant Robert "The Gypsy" Dudley) -- but she's not tall and Euron seems on a plot track to be her outright antagonist rather than frenemy.  Plus, there is already a ton of dislike for Dany already and if GRRM pairs her outright with Euron the child molester then he runs the risk of the casual reader hating the character so much that they overlook whatever complexity GRRM is trying to explore in her character.  Of course, the vision could just be Euron's view of the world (a POV within a POV) but I don't think GRRM would introduce a clear mystery to the reader with the answer being lol, fooled ya', it was all bullshit.

Mal is kind of a blank slate and I think the story could use a female villain on the level of a Euron, Ramsay, or Roose.  Plus, the Hightowers need a "big" character to match the importance of their House.  Finally, a Hightower-Greyjoy alliance would open up a lot of plot possibilities without making his arc all about magic.  

Regardless, let's keep our fingers crossed for krakens!  

 

I agree with all your plot-centric points here! Very much. I agree Mallora makes the most sense, with the caveat that there is still two large books to go, and so we don't know if Mel might have a transformative experience that makes her do something crazy like leave her faith or who knows what. She's not one or even two steps away from teaming up with Euron, but maybe she's four steps away and there is plenty of time left. 

Still, I tend to like your reasoning here. I give almost no chance of it being Dany actually. 

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On 7/27/2016 at 11:30 PM, LmL said:

I give almost no chance of it being Dany actually. 

The main reason why I think Dany is a possibility is the first time I read about the tall and long and terrible woman in the Aeron vision I was thinking oh man, GRRM isn't really going to pair up Euron with Dany is he? That's just friggin' awful.  Since GRRM does like to make the reader suffer from time to time, I can't discount the possibility. 

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I think it's gotta be Cersi Lannister

She has absolutely no allies, the show has shown us she'll sit the Iron Throne and she'll need to marry to stay there

Euron is the only Male lord/King she could marry and hope to defeat the North(King Jon) and South(Queen Daenerys) with...

Euron has the desire to "kill' the gods, Cersi will have no issues with his agenda, so long as she gets to kill her little brother Tyrion and rule Westeros at his side...I personal think it's got to down with Euron and Cersi joining forces and taking over at least 1 of Dany's dragons (Cersi will proven to be the Mad King's bastard daughter via Joanna Lannister"

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So, some disorganized thoughts here:

If I had to bet, my money would be on Mel. It's safe.

  • Show spoiler.:
    Spoiler

    Show events have her heading south, despondent and in need of a new Azor Ahai. Euron could fit that bill.I think book events might parallel those.

     

  • Yes, she is more often associated with red flame, but she is definitely associated with pale flame as well. I tend to view pale flame as a Targ symbol, due to Deanery's fever dream sequence in Game. This fits well if it turns out that Mel is the child of Brynden Rivers and Shiera Seastar and is essentially a Targ bastard.and essentially Deanery's cousin removed by four generations.
  • Malora would be my next bet. I suspect that the Hightowers are GED descendants, have an esoteric background,  and she seems like she is into serious magic. Also Euron appears to be heading got Old Towne.
  • Cersi is a really outside bet. It only really works if it turns out that she and Jaime are Aery's bastards. I tend to think Tyrion is Aery's bastard, so it is getting a bit much for Jaime and Cersi to both be as well. Howver, we all assume that Euron is heading towards Old Town and yes, he is closer to Old Town than anywhere elese that fits Mel's vision of burning towers, but their are dark wings over the sky in that vision. " Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky. " Could it be King's Landing?
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On 8/1/2016 at 11:34 AM, Durran Durrandon said:

If I had to bet, my money would be on Mel. It's safe.

I completely agree. My theory is that Mel will end up linking Stannis' army with Euron's navy and his eventual army (courtesy of Dany & VIctarion) creating a more formidable and realistic threat to the throne by forcing the throne to fight a multi front war.

As for how Euron and Mel are connected, they very well could have met during Euron's exile. And how have they been communicating since they've both returned to Westeros? They quite possibly have not been able to. This is probably too big a stretch but maybe that is desire is part of Euron's infatuation with night shade and spiritual leaders. He is trying to find a way to communicate mystically with Mel.   

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On August 1, 2016 at 11:34 AM, Durran Durrandon said:

So, some disorganized thoughts here:

If I had to bet, my money would be on Mel. It's safe.

  • Show spoiler.:
      Reveal hidden contents

    Show events have her heading south, despondent and in need of a new Azor Ahai. Euron could fit that bill.I think book events might parallel those.

     

  • Yes, she is more often associated with red flame, but she is definitely associated with pale flame as well. I tend to view pale flame as a Targ symbol, due to Deanery's fever dream sequence in Game. This fits well if it turns out that Mel is the child of Brynden Rivers and Shiera Seastar and is essentially a Targ bastard.and essentially Deanery's cousin removed by four generations.
  • Malora would be my next bet. I suspect that the Hightowers are GED descendants, have an esoteric background,  and she seems like she is into serious magic. Also Euron appears to be heading got Old Towne.
  • Cersi is a really outside bet. It only really works if it turns out that she and Jaime are Aery's bastards. I tend to think Tyrion is Aery's bastard, so it is getting a bit much for Jaime and Cersi to both be as well. Howver, we all assume that Euron is heading towards Old Town and yes, he is closer to Old Town than anywhere elese that fits Mel's vision of burning towers, but their are dark wings over the sky in that vision. " Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky. " Could it be King's Landing?

Lately I am leaning toward Malora. According to my symbolic analysis, white fire should lead us to things having to do with ice. A moon woman with white fire associations should, according got my thinking, turn into a Night's Queen type. If Mel turns icy, for example, that would do it, or if Malora simply turns out to have NQ symbolism. Mel has always been a hot version of the NQ, as you pointed out so long ago @Durran Durrandon, and I don't expect her to turn icy, but who knows. Maybe she will become a frozen fire priestess somehow. If that happens, I think it indicates one moon which changes instead of my preferred two moon scenario. I've been viewing the NQ and Mel as prototypes for an ice and fire moon (ice and fire moon queens, after all), but if the fire moon woman turns icy, then I think it means only one moon. I'd rather see a new opposite to Mel emerge, but who knows.  The white tower of the Hightowers surmounted with flame serves as a model for Dawn, which I tend to associate with ice and ice magic.  Of course there is the pale fire swords of the GEoTD to consider... What's really weird is that there is a strong case to be made fro Dawn being the original ice, and a strong case to be made for it being original flaming sword tech from the GEotD. Can it be both somehow? 

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If you will indulge a bit of crackpottry;  looking at the text, there are a few things that stand out:

The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood­-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed…

The Iron Throne places Euron at King's Landing and although I don't doubt that Ramsey Snow might send Melisandre to Euron at some point; I still think we are talking about Cersei.  She certainly fits the definition of madness. 

Dany's vision in the House of Undying:

In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her *the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.

And these passages from aFfC:

FfC Cersei IX:

Lord Qyburn ran a hand up the Blue Bard's chest. "Does she take your nipples in her mouth during your love play?" He took one between his thumb and forefinger, and twisted. "Some men enjoy that. Their nipples are as sensitive as a woman's". The razor flashed, the singer shrieked. On his chest a wet red eye wept blood. Cersei felt ill. Part of her wanted to close her eyes, to turn away, to make it stop. But she was queen and this was treason. Lord Tywin would not have turned away.

*******

Cersei dreamt that she was down in the black cells once again, only this time it was her chained to the wall in place of the singer.  She was naked, and blood dripped from the tips of her breasts where the Imp had torn off her nipples with his teeth.  "Please," she begged, "Please, not my children, do not harm my children."  Tyrion only leered at her.  He was naked too, covered with coarse hair that made him look more like a monkey than a man.  "You shall see them crowned," he said, "and you shall see them die." Then he took her bleeding breast into his mouth and began to suck, and *pain sawed through her like a hot knife.

Forget Tyrion the valonqar; these are dreams sent to torment Cersei and send her into madness. We know what Qyburn can make unGregor; can he make unCersei?  Making tall shadows is Mel's specialty and Euron is collecting priests to use their holy blood. 

/end of cracked pottery

* I didn't think things could get worse than Ramsey until Euron's ship of horrors came along.

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24 minutes ago, LynnS said:

If you will indulge a bit of crackpottry;  looking at the text, there are a few things that stand out:

 

There is no way to discuss this topic seriously, without cracking pots. I'm not big on it being Cersei, but I am open.
 

55 minutes ago, LmL said:

Lately I am leaning toward Malora. According to my symbolic analysis, white fire should lead us to things having to do with ice. A moon woman with white fire associations should, according got my thinking, turn into a Night's Queen type. If Mel turns icy, for example, that would do it, or if Malora simply turns out to have NQ symbolism. Mel has always been a hot version of the NQ, as you pointed out so long ago @Durran Durrandon, and I don't expect her to turn icy, but who knows. Maybe she will become a frozen fire priestess somehow. If that happens, I think it indicates one moon which changes instead of my preferred two moon scenario. I've been viewing the NQ and Mel as prototypes for an ice and fire moon (ice and fire moon queens, after all), but if the fire moon woman turns icy, then I think it means only one moon. I'd rather see a new opposite to Mel emerge, but who knows.  The white tower of the Hightowers surmounted with flame serves as a model for Dawn, which I tend to associate with ice and ice magic.  Of course there is the pale fire swords of the GEoTD to consider... What's really weird is that there is a strong case to be made fro Dawn being the original ice, and a strong case to be made for it being original flaming sword tech from the GEotD. Can it be both somehow? 

At the moment, 10:13 Tuesday morning, I lean towards the two sword theory. This could totally change by noon. I think you can have two moons and two swords and still have Mel switch to ice. Symbolically it is two different Mel's. That said. I don't think I am sold on white fire always leading us to ice, as pale flame is already connected to Mel in the text. That said, if you need an ice foil. Mel could decide that Euron is the true Azor Ahai and remain fiery, and Malora or someone else could still emerge as a Night's Queen foil.

I am totally winging this. The kids are going to wake up in minutes.

 

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1 hour ago, Durran Durrandon said:

There is no way to discuss this topic seriously, without cracking pots. I'm not big on it being Cersei, but I am open

After looking at a few passages in DwD just now;  I'm changing my mind:

*I'm guessing Melisandre.

A Dance with Dragons:

“Lord Snow.” The voice was Melisandre’s.
Surprise made him recoil from her. “Lady Melisandre.” He took a step backwards. ”I mistook you for someone else. At night all robes are grey. Yet suddenly hers were red. He did not understand how he could have taken her for Ygritte. She was taller, thinner, older, though the moonlight washed years from her face. Mist rose from her nostrils, and from pale hands naked to the night. “You will freeze your fingers off,” Jon warned.

“If that is the will of R’hllor. Night’s powers cannot touch one whose heart has been bathes in god’s holy fire.”

“Your heart does not concern me. Just your hands.”

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre

She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them.

A Dance with Dragons – Jon III

Beneath the weeping Wall, Lady Melisandre raised her pale white hands. “We all must choose,” she proclaimed.

“We choose light or we choose darkness. We choose good or we choose evil. We choose the true god or the false.”

The red woman’s robes of deep-dyed scarlet swirled about her, and her coppery hair ad a halo round her face. Tall yellow flames danced from her fingertips like claws.

R’hllor was a jealous diety, ever hungry. So the new god devoured the corpse of the old, and cast gigantic shadows of Stannis and Melisandre upon the Wall, black against the ruddy red reflections on the ice.

 

Added: It also occurs to me that if he is collecting wizards and priests for their holy blood; he is planning some great magic.  To be reborn as Azor Ahai?  If the sword and the person are one in the same; then he needs water, the heart of a lion and the heart of fire.  Aeron Damphair, Cersei Lannister and Melisandre.  If he's looking for his rock wife:  who better than Cersei from Casterly Rock. 

** Or MeliCersei - if there's a Corpse Queen involved. -  :D

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First off, OP, Malora the Mad Maid is a really good wildcard guess for the woman in the vision.

 

Throwing another suggestion out there: What if it is Quaithe?

In TWOIAF, we learn that the Bloodstone Emperor was the first high priest of the Church of Starry Wisdom. Euron's story has tremendous parallels to the Bloodstone Emperor, as Durran Durrandon pointed out in his own thread.

Quaithe has always been very heavily associated with stars and starlight, and she hails from Asshai. Could she be a member of this church and thus be in contact with Euron in some way? Might Euron himself be a part of this cult?

Thinking back, it now appears fishy to me that Quaithe warned Dany about everyone coming to her, even people like Moqorro and Vic, who could potentially alert her to the extreme danger level of Euron. But she never mentions Euron in her cryptic warnings at all...

 

Alternatively, maybe this Malora Hightower could also be a part of this church. The Hightowers and their origins are a mystery.

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  • 2 months later...

I like the Idea that the woman is Malora Hightower. The Hightowers are very mysteirous and probably involved with some sinister magic. 

As @Little Scribe of Naath said Euron paralells the Bloodstone Emperor from TWOIAF. I think Euron is releasing the  dark magic of the BSE back into the world. Its possible that the Hightowers are followers of this sinister magic.

I think the magic of the BSE is the dark shadow magic from Asshai , so i'm open to the idea that the woman is Quathie because she is a shadowbinder and possibly a connection to the dark Asshai magic . 

But if the Hightowers are involved with the same dark magic , it makes sense that Malora is the tall shadow woman .

Anyway i'm pretty sure Euron will controll  southern Westeros and start a reign of terror with his dark magic . He's probably the ultimate human villain involved with every dark magic there is .  Shadow magic from Asshai , magic from a doomed Valyria , the deep ones and maybe even the ice magic from the far North . I'm positive to the idea that the horn Sam has is the horn of winter and Euron will blow it thus releasing the Others upon Westeros.

Would be so great and terrifying if Euron sat on the Iron throne with Malora as his Queen and controlling the people with fear and sinister magic. 

I actually doubts if Euron is a human anymore , maybe he was transformed into a demon during his trips to Asshai and Valyria. 

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  • 2 months later...

I'm back to thinking the woman is Cersei.  

The reason is I noticed a similarity between the 'Euron and the woman laughing as two dwarfs mauled each other other' and the events of Clash.  Remember when Cersei and Tyrion received news that Stannis and Renly were fighting each other instead of coming for them?  They laughed their asses off.  

I think the vision points to this situation repeating basically.  

Euron will attack Dany while she crosses the Narrow Sea, but it will fail for some reason.  He will then slink off to KL to ally with Cersei.  They will both be vulnerable...but instead of allying and taking them out, Dany and Aegon will end up fighting each other (they are the dwarfs), just like Stannis and Renly did, which will have Euron and Cersei laughing their asses off in KL.  

As to the white fire representing sorcery...I agree.  That might seem to preclude Cersei from being the woman then, but I think she will start dabbling in some dark shit when she returns to power.  After everything that's happened, Cersei won't have access to conventional means of power.  No big armies, gold or allies.  But what she does have is wildfire and an adviser (Qyburn) who is well versed in the "Dark Arts".  I fully expect her to make use of these unconventional means of maintaining her power going forwards, since the conventional means are lost to her.   So the white fire doesn't seem like it should apply to her...yet.  But it will, by the end of Winds imo.    

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If there is going to be a Night's King and Corpse Queen in this story, my money would be on it being Euron and Cersei.  That might be what the 'God born from the charnel pits' is referring to;  Euron and Cersei becoming immortal Others (well, Cersei would actually be a wight with blue stars for eyes most like).

There is also a bit in Arianne's 2nd Winds chapter where she recalls Doran and a Maester discussing why Storms never strike at Dorne.  "Because no Dornishman ever stole away the daughter of two Gods" they say.  That got me thinking that if Cersei is a God 'borne from the charnel pits' that Euron was referring to, Arianne's stealing Myrcella away (and maiming her) might mean that that line is foreshadowing Euron (the Storm) striking at Dorne in Winds.  

I've seen people speculate that the tower submerged beneath a black and bloody tide might be Sunspear...I didn't believe it at first, but I'm coming around to that idea.  I think while he waits for Dany to come to him, Euron will do some damage to Dorne and Aegon in Winds.  

But Myrcella isn't Euron's daughter, so Dorne being punished for 'stealing the daughter of 2 Gods' bit doesn't work perfectly....unless, maybe Jaime will be the Night's King, and not Euron?  That would be quite a shock.  I recall Jon saying Jaime is what a 'King should look like' when he first saw him...and the first Night's King was a Lord Commander.  I like Jaime, so that is not the end I would want for him, but thematically I think it would be a fitting end for him and Cersei.  Food for thought.  

I'll be on the lookout for lines that might point to that as their end when I do a reread again (whenever the hell George gets around to announcing Winds).        

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The charnel pit god stuff will refer to sphinxes. A being having been second lifed by multiple people with multiple bloodlines causing an amalgamation of physical traits. They're playing around with it in asshai, it's how all those prior sphinxes immortalised in statues but otherwise long forgotten came to be.

Euron is going to get himself inside of Drogon by way of Arianne's blood (it's why the sphinx Alleras' parents are a pirate (for Euron) and a Martell) and Drogon will become a sphinx. The end result of whatever drogo's blood does + dragon for Rhaego and Arianne's watered down Targness + Arianne's green blood + Euron's Kraken blood, and a dose of greyscale, end result the stone beast, or the god from the charnel pits, a being with a heap of second lifes inside of it with a heap of different blood lines.

Then blood of the dragon Dany dies and flushes them all out (besides Drogo and Rhaego of course) with her pure targness.

Quaithe will probably be Shiera.

Shiera will be Euron's mate.

Quote

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

Dany looked uneasily at where the ladder had stood. Even the smoke was gone now, and the crowd was breaking up, each man going about his business. In a moment more than a few would find their purses flat and empty. "And now?"

"And now his powers grow, Khaleesi. And you are the cause of it."

Dany woke her dragons and so woke magic and all the practitioners became stronger for it. And one of them has caught a kraken in their nets, that is to say they've used their dragonglass candles to guide Euron in what they want him to do, the same way Quaithe is trying to guide Dany. That's how Euron knows everything he knows and come across all his bounty. Sailors are guided at sea by the stars, Euron is being guided by the star of the sea, kraken in her nets.

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2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The charnel pit god stuff will refer to sphinxes. A being having been second lifed by multiple people with multiple bloodlines causing an amalgamation of physical traits. They're playing around with it in asshai, it's how all those prior sphinxes immortalised in statues but otherwise long forgotten came to be.

Euron is going to get himself inside of Drogon by way of Arianne's blood (it's why the sphinx Alleras' parents are a pirate (for Euron) and a Martell) and Drogon will become a sphinx. The end result of whatever drogo's blood does + dragon for Rhaego and Arianne's watered down Targness + Arianne's green blood + Euron's Kraken blood, and a dose of greyscale, end result the stone beast, or the god from the charnel pits, a being with a heap of second lifes inside of it with a heap of different blood lines.

Then blood of the dragon Dany dies and flushes them all out (besides Drogo and Rhaego of course) with her pure targness.

Quaithe will probably be Shiera.

Shiera will be Euron's mate.

Dany woke her dragons and so woke magic and all the practitioners became stronger for it. And one of them has caught a kraken in their nets, that is to say they've used their dragonglass candles to guide Euron in what they want him to do, the same way Quaithe is trying to guide Dany. That's how Euron knows everything he knows and come across all his bounty. Sailor's are guided at sea by the stars, Euron is being guided by the star of the sea, kraken in her nets.

That's some pretty shiny tin foil, but I really like the idea of Quaithe (whom I tend to think is Shierra) manipulating Euron, I have never thought of that but it makes a certain amount of sense.

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I want it to be Quaithe because that would explain some of her actions, give her purpose etc.

As of now, Quiathe is an enigma. We know nothing about her agenda, identity, alliances etc. 

Pairing her with Euron would give her purpose.

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My guess is Quaithe/Shiera Seastar. The Mad-Maid is linked primarily with the beacon-fire of the Hightower (representing knowledge, I would guess), Dany is associated with black fire shot through with red from Drogon, and Cersei with the green of Wildfire. Not exactly airtight, but that's where I'd put my money.

My second guess would be Cersei. She is the only one who seems a potential ally to a gorecrow.

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