An Army of 108,000...

[Carl Benson]

...sounds really useful on paper, but how do you feed, shelter, and provide for them and their horses in a foreign land? And what do you do with them after the war?

[Adam Targaryen]

I assume you're talking about Dany's army, and I think it's even bigger than that. She'll need way more than 1000 ships.

[mbuehner]

9 hours ago, Carl Benson said:

...sounds really useful on paper, but how do you feed, shelter, and provide for them and their horses in a foreign land? And what do you do with them after the war?

The Mongols were the historic model for the Dothraki, obviously. Their secret was- they didnt consume much (they were used to privation and their horses were more like ponies by todays standards and able to forage) and they didnt stay in one place long enough to strip the land bare. Oddly this also meant they became quite adept at utilizing siege engineering, they couldnt hang around for a siege.

The upside is, once they hit the 7 Kingdoms they would like run roughshod without much worry about supplies. The downside is, waiting around for ships to show up is a nonstarter. Westrosi castles would also doubtless give them problems.

Historically, the only thing that stopped the Mongolian horders from taking all of Western Europe was the death of Ghengis and strife amongst his successors. They kicked the crap out of every Western army they found quite handily.

 

[The Imp slap]

1 minute ago, Adam Targaryen said:

I assume you're talking about Dany's army, and I think it's even bigger than that. She'll need way more than 1000 ships.

No shit. She needs to bring the horses. When Attila's Huns invaded the western Roman Empire they had a similarly big army during the battle of the Catalaunian plains... Their raids were no joke and barely sufficient in terms of food or water - no one thinks about it now but men and horses need dozens of liters of clean water everyday. 

 

Now about those ships, the best transports during the middle-ages could carry 20/30 horses max (riders and crew included)... Would still take about 3000 ships to get there. Now, I don't know how narrow the Narrow sea is but I'd give the command to 2 other generals (book Barristan & Jorah for instance or Tyrion & Jorah) and attack in 3 steps and 3 places at the same time (like 2/4 weeks between each attack) - one army North (seeking allies), one in Dorne (seeking allies) and one in KL (taking the throne)... That's just an example and it works if the sea is good and really narrow.

[watcher of the night]

9 hours ago, Carl Benson said:

...sounds really useful on paper, but how do you feed, shelter, and provide for them and their horses in a foreign land? And what do you do with them after the war?

She will feed them from the plot twist depot, Dany's plot armour will protect them in the harsh winter and Dany will sink them in the nearest plot hole as soon as she has no need of them.

6 minutes ago, mbuehner said:

The Mongols were the historic model for the Dothraki, obviously. Their secret was- they didnt consume much (they were used to privation and their horses were more like ponies by todays standards and able to forage) and they didnt stay in one place long enough to strip the land bare. Oddly this also meant they became quite adept at utilizing siege engineering, they couldnt hang around for a siege.

The upside is, once they hit the 7 Kingdoms they would like run roughshod without much worry about supplies. The downside is, waiting around for ships to show up is a nonstarter. Westrosi castles would also doubtless give them problems.

Historically, the only thing that stopped the Mongolian horders from taking all of Western Europe was the death of Ghengis and strife amongst his successors. They kicked the crap out of every Western army they found quite handily.

 

The problem is that the mongols were everything the dothraki are not.

[Illiterati]

7 hours ago, mbuehner said:

The Mongols were the historic model for the Dothraki, obviously. Their secret was- they didnt consume much (they were used to privation and their horses were more like ponies by todays standards and able to forage) and they didnt stay in one place long enough to strip the land bare. Oddly this also meant they became quite adept at utilizing siege engineering, they couldnt hang around for a siege.

The upside is, once they hit the 7 Kingdoms they would like run roughshod without much worry about supplies. The downside is, waiting around for ships to show up is a nonstarter. Westrosi castles would also doubtless give them problems.

Historically, the only thing that stopped the Mongolian horders from taking all of Western Europe was the death of Ghengis and strife amongst his successors. They kicked the crap out of every Western army they found quite handily.

 

Genghis did it the same way Alexander the Great did....by pillaging and demanding tribute from conquered territories.  The Mongols stripped villages bare....everything that could be carried was taken.  This whole idea of a massive-scale logistic chain in military invasions is fairly new.

[robasp2]

16 hours ago, Carl Benson said:

...sounds really useful on paper, but how do you feed, shelter, and provide for them and their horses in a foreign land? And what do you do with them after the war?

They are fast, as stated. But that only works for distributed armies..

Soldiers in battle formations with sheilds and pikes will easily finish them..

BUT,

Each of them wear a thick plot armor. It doesnt matter if they are naked malnutritioned people, since they are Daenerys' army, the WILL defeat their opponents and take the seven kingdoms.

[Amris]

This is one of the questions where one has to close one's eyes and try to suspend disbelief IMO.

The logistics of supplying huge armies aren't GRRM's strong suit - nor D&Ds in the film series. All one usually sees in the series is troups with their arms and armour (but no baggage whatsoever), when what one would expect would be tons and tons of wagons and draft horses in addition to heavy packs on the soldiers.

Foraging is time-consuming. As is feeding horses by having them graze. And there is only so much to pilfer and to graze on an army's line of march - especially on an army sporting 100.000 + horses! (unless you spread it out all over the countryside, but then it's not really an army anymore).

And as has been pointed out above: a thousand ships would not realistically be be able to transport 100.000 Dothraki and 100.000 + Dothraki horses (9000 Unsullied and 500 2nd Sons are practically negligible next to this) on a single trip. The only way would be to ferry back and forth many times.

Best is: simply enjoy the story and ignore this inconsistency

 

 

[Ser Creighton]

9 hours ago, mbuehner said:

The Mongols were the historic model for the Dothraki, obviously. Their secret was- they didnt consume much (they were used to privation and their horses were more like ponies by todays standards and able to forage) and they didnt stay in one place long enough to strip the land bare. Oddly this also meant they became quite adept at utilizing siege engineering, they couldnt hang around for a siege.

The upside is, once they hit the 7 Kingdoms they would like run roughshod without much worry about supplies. The downside is, waiting around for ships to show up is a nonstarter. Westrosi castles would also doubtless give them problems.

Historically, the only thing that stopped the Mongolian horders from taking all of Western Europe was the death of Ghengis and strife amongst his successors. They kicked the crap out of every Western army they found quite handily.

 

Martin and logistics don't always mix well and he doesn't care unless he wants to use them against someone. The Castles are easy prey. Dragons don't care about Castles, see Harrenhal as an example. The Unsullied are actually rather good at building siege equipment as well. They also have very organized camps.

It seems pretty obvious where Dany will gather supplies though. Show is different from the books, in the books the ships will more than likely be Braavosi, they actually have a large enough fleet. Getting there? Well Dothraki are raiders, so they raid. Yunkai is along the way, along with Volantis, and other Free Cities, like Pentos. Most just give the Dothraki stuff to go away. Also a great way to gather gold. Braavos will be easy to deal with, I have a bunch of gold and need a bunch of ships to cross the Narrow sea. It's a short trip. I think she will have some ships that are her own, but she will need more. On the show, it's a tougher call, probably fall out of the sky. She could take some, receive some and buy some. I think the ships are rather irrelevant

There is mention in the books of the Dothraki being efficient. The horses eat grass, the Dothraki generally eat horse. Set and move camps quickly, and are nomadic as they horses would need to constantly find new grass. 

An example of a large host is the Wildling host which funny enough is also a group of raiders, was nomadic, numbered 100k and Jon lived with them for a time and fell in love. Sort of like how Dany lived with a large nomadic hoard of raiders, and fell in love. But it's totally different. Jon is taking his raider army to retake his family home that was usurped from them by betrayal, and now legally belongs to the Boltons. Crown said so. Dany of course is doing something totally different, she is marching her raider army to retake her ancestral home from those that usurped it from her family. Difference is Winterfell already burnt, and ummm KL will probably burn when Cersei loses it. Wildfire go boom. But ok outside of that Jon is boy and Dany is a girl and they are nothing alike except that everyone thinks either or are the Prince that Was promised. But she is a girl and he is a boy so, totally different. 

 

[Neds Secret]

41 minutes ago, Ser Creighton said:

Martin and logistics don't always mix well and he doesn't care unless he wants to use them against someone. The Castles are easy prey. Dragons don't care about Castles, see Harrenhal as an example. The Unsullied are actually rather good at building siege equipment as well. They also have very organized camps.

It seems pretty obvious where Dany will gather supplies though. Show is different from the books, in the books the ships will more than likely be Braavosi, they actually have a large enough fleet. Getting there? Well Dothraki are raiders, so they raid. Yunkai is along the way, along with Volantis, and other Free Cities, like Pentos. Most just give the Dothraki stuff to go away. Also a great way to gather gold. Braavos will be easy to deal with, I have a bunch of gold and need a bunch of ships to cross the Narrow sea. It's a short trip. I think she will have some ships that are her own, but she will need more. On the show, it's a tougher call, probably fall out of the sky. She could take some, receive some and buy some. I think the ships are rather irrelevant

There is mention in the books of the Dothraki being efficient. The horses eat grass, the Dothraki generally eat horse. Set and move camps quickly, and are nomadic as they horses would need to constantly find new grass. 

An example of a large host is the Wildling host which funny enough is also a group of raiders, was nomadic, numbered 100k and Jon lived with them for a time and fell in love. Sort of like how Dany lived with a large nomadic hoard of raiders, and fell in love. But it's totally different. Jon is taking his raider army to retake his family home that was usurped from them by betrayal, and now legally belongs to the Boltons. Crown said so. Dany of course is doing something totally different, she is marching her raider army to retake her ancestral home from those that usurped it from her family. Difference is Winterfell already burnt, and ummm KL will probably burn when Cersei loses it. Wildfire go boom. But ok outside of that Jon is boy and Dany is a girl and they are nothing alike except that everyone thinks either or are the Prince that Was promised. But she is a girl and he is a boy so, totally different. 

 

I don't follow, the way you put it they both sound rather similiar to me, why do you think they are both so different?

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

2 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

I don't follow, the way you put it they both sound rather similiar to me, why do you think they are both so different?

I think he forgot to add the sarcasm tag...

[dbunting]

If the show decided to somewhat fix the army issue they could have Dany split the Dothraki in half. Send word ahead that they are willing to give Dany to them for ships / gold like Volantis masters already offered the Dothraki (the Khal mentioned this). When the horde(led by Dahrio) reached Volantis they could just take the gold and ships and kill whoever resisted, since Dany hates slavers.

The other half could head to Mereen, Dany doesn't yet know her fleet is destroyed. But that is where Yara and Theon come into play, they are heading to her. Now she would have two fleets to carry them. I imagine she could also just take whatever ships are in Yunkai and say they are payment for supporting the Harpy.

[King Perkis]

I mean there are multiple things that come into play here:

1. people will die, like a lot of them, so assuming a number even close to 108,000 will even be alive after the initial invasion, let alone at the end of the conquest has finished isn't likely

2. Just like when the Golden company came over, they lost a significant amount of their numbers due to weather and ships being destroyed or blown off course. So the same could occur to Dany or maybe she sends back her ships for those she has to leave behind due to not having enough ships.

3. The Iron Bank is still in play. They easily gave Stannis a loan and he hardly had an army. Danybrings a new order to a country that continues to deny paying its debt and she brings a large army with dragons. So, receiving a loan seems easy.

4. If its so easy to believe the Tyrells can feed everyone in Westeros that align with the crown, why is it so hard to believe that those that come to Danery's side willingly or unwillingly won't have food, or shelter, or goods to offer her army. (I understand winter is approaching and due to the Wof5K there isn't a whole lot of resources but we haven't necessarily seen any mention of that famine since the war ended).

5. Tyrion, a Lannister, (even though he has been branded otherwise) supports Dany.  If Dany wins, Tyrion will undoubtedly inherit the gold from Casterly Rock, which in turn can be used to pay for everything.

6. Dany has been conquering cities across the Narrow Sea for sometime and she has been able to care for her Unsullied, sellswords, and others.  So, in moving to Westeros she will have more resources in order to take care of a larger force.

7. Dany also has like several advisors that have led and cared for large numbers of men and women or something similar. Tyrion ran the sewage system at Casterly Rock and then ran KingsLanding, all of the Dothraki she just took are capable of caring for themselves in large numbers, The Unsullied and sellswords are capable of taking care of administrative things while on the move and at war.

8. Lastly, on the point that GRRM or D&D don't cover this, GRRM usually mentions the rear-guard in most convoys or at least gives some mention of this and with D&D how much time do you want them to spend on this stuff. I am by no means defending them but they have covered through conversations that several people in Dany's company have some organizational skills in this department and are capable of helping.

 

[Xarkar]

14 hours ago, Amris said:

This is one of the questions where one has to close one's eyes and try to suspend disbelief IMO.

The logistics of supplying huge armies aren't GRRM's strong suit - nor D&Ds in the film series. All one usually sees in the series is troups with their arms and armour (but no baggage whatsoever), when what one would expect would be tons and tons of wagons and draft horses in addition to heavy packs on the soldiers.

Foraging is time-consuming. As is feeding horses by having them graze. And there is only so much to pilfer and to graze on an army's line of march - especially on an army sporting 100.000 + horses! (unless you spread it out all over the countryside, but then it's not really an army anymore).

And as has been pointed out above: a thousand ships would not realistically be be able to transport 100.000 Dothraki and 100.000 + Dothraki horses (9000 Unsullied and 500 2nd Sons are practically negligible next to this) on a single trip. The only way would be to ferry back and forth many times.

Best is: simply enjoy the story and ignore this inconsistency

 

 

Has the timeframe to sail across the sea actually been specified?

If it was 1 weeks, then you could have 1000 ships arriving every 2 weeks.  Which really isnt that big of a deal.  The first wave, would liekly be enough to defeat anyone defending where they land, then they just have to wait.  You also have a lot of support troops, that could arrive on wave 2 or 3..  IE fighters go first.

 

 

Time is also not really an issue in the show.  Robert took 30 days to get from KL to Winterfell (in a carriage).  It takes LF 1 episode, which seems to be a matter of days (at most) to get from the Vale to the wall.  Both are roughly the same distance.  

 

 

[BobinIL]

15 hours ago, robasp2 said:

They are fast, as stated. But that only works for distributed armies..

Soldiers in battle formations with sheilds and pikes will easily finish them..

BUT,

Each of them wear a thick plot armor. It doesnt matter if they are naked malnutritioned people, since they are Daenerys' army, the WILL defeat their opponents and take the seven kingdoms.

Very true, I keep wondering how those silly looking curved swords the Dothraki carry will work against chain mail and steel plate armor??

[Xarkar]

15 minutes ago, BobinIL said:

Very true, I keep wondering how those silly looking curved swords the Dothraki carry will work against chain mail and steel plate armor??

Probably just fine.

The average soldier does not wear plate mail.  They seem to wear a combination of chain mail and leather, and have lots of areas that are exposed. 

 

The fact that Robert and Selmy were afraid of JUST Drogo's Kaleshar(sp) tells me they would do just fine.

 

Look at Oberyn vs the Mountain.  No armor, and a staff/sword whatever that is called and he was toying with the mountain.  Some of the Dothraki would be the same.

[watcher of the night]

50 minutes ago, Xarkar said:

Probably just fine.

The average soldier does not wear plate mail.  They seem to wear a combination of chain mail and leather, and have lots of areas that are exposed. 

 

The fact that Robert and Selmy were afraid of JUST Drogo's Kaleshar(sp) tells me they would do just fine.

 

Look at Oberyn vs the Mountain.  No armor, and a staff/sword whatever that is called and he was toying with the mountain.  Some of the Dothraki would be the same.

Sorry but those arakhs would be totaly useless vs. chain mail or plait armour. The egytian kopesh or sickleswords were bronze age weapons, there is a good reason they went out of fashion. Also, a pitched battle is not a series of 1 vs 1 fights, the ability to fight in formations, armour and discipline means lot more than breavery or personal skills.

[Xarkar]

1 minute ago, watcher of the night said:

Sorry but those arakhs would be totaly useless vs. chain mail or plait armour. The egytian kopesh or sickleswords were bronze age weapons, there is a good reason they went out of fashion. Also, a pitched battle is not a series of 1 vs 1 fights, the ability to fight in formations, armour and discipline means lot more than breavery or personal skills.

If those Arakhs find a gap, they will still cut.

 

Robert was afraid of a SINGLE khalasar.

 

Speed, aggression, horses and different tactics also mean something on the battlefield.  Westerois commanders would never have fought a Dothraki horde.  they would line up and expect them to behave like a Westeros army.  

 

Having armor does not mean they will win by default. 

 

And again... most soldiers to not have full plate, and Arrows can still kill.  

[watcher of the night]

5 minutes ago, Xarkar said:

If those Arakhs find a gap, they will still cut.

 

Robert was afraid of a SINGLE khalasar.

 

Speed, aggression, horses and different tactics also mean something on the battlefield.  Westerois commanders would never have fought a Dothraki horde.  they would line up and expect them to behave like a Westeros army.  

 

Having armor does not mean they will win by default. 

 

And again... most soldiers to not have full plate, and Arrows can still kill.  

Gap? Where? First you have to get past the opponent's shield whereas you have none; a huge disadvantage in itself.

I don't know why he was afraid. Yes, dothraki can do great damage to the countryside and it would be difficult to corner them unless they want to give battle. But in a pitched battle they would be cannon fodder.

The same holds for the dothraki as well: they never fought a westerosi army.

No, but it helps you to stay alive. There is a good reason people used armour.

The same volley of arrows will kill a lot more of the dothraki.

[Xarkar]

6 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

Gap? Where? First you have to get past the opponent's shield whereas you have none; a huge disadvantage in itself.

I don't know why he was afraid. Yes, dothraki can do great damage to the countryside and it would be difficult to corner them unless they want to give battle. But in a pitched battle they would be cannon fodder.

The same holds for the dothraki as well: they never fought a westerosi army.

No, but it helps you to stay alive. There is a good reason people used armour.

The same volley of arrows will kill a lot more of the dothraki.

Ser Gregor, the Mountain wearing FULL plate mail says hi.   

Notice how Oberyn beat him?

Did you watch the TOJ scene? There are lots of gaps.

 

Yes plate mail is amazing.  Yes it gives you a HUGE advantage, but it is also very expensive... remember when the mountain killed the guy in the joust?  Everyone was commenting how he was just knighted... how could he possibly afford the armor.   

 

Even the stark army armor looks to be only hardened leather.