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Who are the best commanders who are still alive?


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Also I don't think anyone's mentioned Tywin I'd rank him higher than Jamie. I think of Dany as more of a conqueror than a battle commander but I have no arguments to back that up at the moment. 

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6 minutes ago, Nissa said:

Also I don't think anyone's mentioned Tywin I'd rank him higher than Jamie. I think of Dany as more of a conqueror than a battle commander but I have no arguments to back that up at the moment. 

No one has mentioned him because Tywin is dead. This topic only concerns commanders who are still alive.

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6 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

No one has mentioned him because Tywin is dead. This topic only concerns commanders who are still alive.

ahh that would make sense

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1 hour ago, CJ McLannister said:

What do we mean by commander?  Military strategist?  Field generals?  Or leaders of men?  

I think Jaime is a great leader, but I'm not sure how good of a strategist he is.  Or at least was.  Losing his hand has made him less careless, since he can't rely on his skill to cover for bad decisions.

I think that this is a very good point.  We have several instances of inspirational leaders...and Jaime was very prominent among them.  Also, Robb, Gregor Clegane, Jon, Beric Dondarion and even 'ol Bob Baratheon were inspiring leaders; those under them were inspired because their leaders were throwing themselves into the same peril that they demanded their men face. 

However, sometimes what makes one a great leader doesn't make him a great commander.  Case it point was Jaime in the earliest stages of TWO5K.  From what I've read, he had a great advantage in numbers at the Golden Tooth and the first Riverrun; advantages that were set up by Tywin's use of Gregor's raiding tactics dispersing the Tully forces.  Yes, Jaime inspired his men to crush their enemies at both of these battles and I don't mean to belittle this.

Unfortunately for him, he continued to be an inspirational leader by leading fairly large parties out to hunt down the Riverlands forces that were harrying his supply lines and foraging parties.  He didn't play the role of great commander and make sure the chain of command back at the siege was clear.  Therefore, when he got too bold and captured, the besieging forces didn't have a clear commander to take over.  The result, a disaster at the Battle of the Camps.

I'm not saying that Jamie is an incompetent commander; I'm saying that he isn't on the level of Stannis, Tarly and Connington, those who have taken the field against roughly equivalent forces, made use of their advantages and have won.  Jaime is a great choice to lead the charge; but there are better choices to decide when and where to charge.

 

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

All of Slavers Bay was her design, she took three immense cities in a very brief time.

Along with Dany; Tyrion, Euron, Griff and Randyll

I don't think this makes Dany a great strategist or commander at all - she took Astapor from within (by pretty much just sending her army in to slaughter the defenseless masters), she takes Yunkai through stealth and the betrayal of the Storm Crows. There is a battle at Meereen, but the city is truly won by stealth, and by freeing the fighting pit slaves after infiltrating the city. And pretty much everything that happens is the brainchild of her councillors anyways. If anyone is a great commander in Slavers Bay, it's Barristan.

What great battle has Tyrion commanded? Rallying the troops at the Blackwater has to be the closest he's come.

I think this might work better if we narrow down what should constitute a great commander, because it seems like everyone had a different idea of what that means.

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Outstanding commanders in order:

Jon Connington

Stannis

Randyll Tarly

runner-up, due to talent shown and known teachers and stuff despite a lack of experience: Jon Snow

 

Average commanders, neither particularly good nor bad, but a bit of experience, not ordered in any way:

Jaime, Victarion, Addam Marbrand, Lord Rowan, Edmure, Blackfish, Bronze Yohn Royce ...

 

Bad (or at least inexperienced commanders):

Barristan, Lord Puff-fish, not many else who couldn't be easily kept from actual commanding stuff.

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Jon Snow is an interesting case. Martin clearly wastes no opportuity to display his strategic talent, such as when he schools Stannis on what the right strategy would be in the North. Of course, he does still lack experience, but it seems he has the potential to be a great general.

I would say Stannis, Randyll Tarly and the Blackfish are all seasoned commanders. I think Stannis is a methodical, steadfast and resolute commander in chief, but certainly not a brilliant strategist by any stretch of the imagination.

I think Randyll Tarly is a better battle commander, but again, he somehow does not come across as a brilliant overall strategic commander. Maybe more of a tactical field general than a grand battle strategist.

The Blackfish seems to have the greatest strategic brilliance and tactical flair of this veteran bunch, having been the brains behind most of the unconventional ideas and surprise moves of Robb's campaign.

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33 minutes ago, Fox of House McCloud said:

I don't think this makes Dany a great strategist or commander at all - she took Astapor from within (by pretty much just sending her army in to slaughter the defenseless masters), she takes Yunkai through stealth and the betrayal of the Storm Crows. There is a battle at Meereen, but the city is truly won by stealth, and by freeing the fighting pit slaves after infiltrating the city. And pretty much everything that happens is the brainchild of her councillors anyways. If anyone is a great commander in Slavers Bay, it's Barristan.

What great battle has Tyrion commanded? Rallying the troops at the Blackwater has to be the closest he's come.

I think this might work better if we narrow down what should constitute a great commander, because it seems like everyone had a different idea of what that means.

Why Barristan and not Jorah? I'm not sure how you can't be in awe of Danys conquest, just because she battled with ruse, it shouldnt doesn't diminish the battles. A good commander listens to advisors.

He did more at Blackwater then tell men to hold the gate. He weakens Stannis by using his wildlings in the forest, burned Stannis' navy with wildfire and a chain, destroyed the "bridge" that Stannis' forces were using and he invited the Tyrrell army into the crowns grace.

Word.

1 hour ago, dariopatke said:

Also didnt Victarion win at Shields and not Euron?

Exactly. Victarion was there. Ordering men, killing people, however all by Eurons instructions and design

 

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2 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

He is or was a great warrior no doubt but he still lead his troops into an ambush. That's why he cannot be considered one of the best commanders.

Every commander has made mistakes,  question is do they learn from them which it seems like Jaime has. Robb gave most of his army to a man who later killed him, one mistake doesn't define a person.

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2 hours ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

Manderly brought the food and a lot of men. Freys are many and probably the most loyal of the bunch. How would you have done it differently?

1) you have starving reliable men

2) you have well-fed men of questionable reliability

3) you have well-fed reliable men to check any power plays the questionable men may make

4) you don't go to Winterfell, stay in Barrowtown, and wait

Was Manderly their only option for food? Not a rhetorical question, I'm curious. Manderly poses a real problem; when the Manderly vs Frey thing comes to a head, Roose literally looks "afraid." There's also the problem of the fake bride. I understand that Roose has these people by the balls, but still. Arya is fake, and married to Ramsay, whose depredations Roose would like to keep secret. With the lords in Winterfell and Ramsay newly married, there go Roose's attempt to keep the secret. This isn't helping anyone: Lady Dustin says that the bride's tears are doing more damage to the Bolton cause than Stannis. And Roose brought those lords together to witness those tears. It's a weird series of moves by a man who is supposed to be a brilliant player. 

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3 minutes ago, kimim said:

Was Manderly their only option for food? Not a rhetorical question, I'm curious. Manderly poses a real problem;

There is around 6,000 men in Winterfell. Manderly has 300. He's not that much of a problem.

Perhaps it was better for Roose to have Wyman under his roof and seen to be part of his force than to let him reside at White Harbour and free to make his own plans or even to take advantage of the situation after Roose has faced Stannis.

The Manderlys are a relative risk no matter where Wyman is.

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1 minute ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

The Manderlys are a relative risk no matter where Wyman is.

And I think that the point of having Manderly at Winterfell is that this put him directly under Roose's sword...so to speak.  If we can believe Manderly's earlier statements to Davos, he has deliberately cultivated a persona as a weak and cowardly lord.  I suspect that Roose believes he can cow Manderly and, by extension, all of White Harbor by being able to directly threaten Wyman. 

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7 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

There is around 6,000 men in Winterfell. Manderly has 300. He's not that much of a problem.

Perhaps it was better for Roose to have Wyman under his roof and seen to be part of his force than to let him reside at White Harbour ..

 

2 minutes ago, daccu65 said:

And I think that the point of having Manderly at Winterfell is that this put him directly under Roose's sword...so to speak.  If we can believe Manderly's earlier statements to Davos, he has deliberately cultivated a persona as a weak and cowardly lord.  ...

I can buy these. Also, I like the fact that Roose isn't perfect, as people generally aren't. In asoiaf, people make mistakes and they pay for them.

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6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Why Barristan and not Jorah? I'm not sure how you can't be in awe of Danys conquest, just because she battled with ruse, it shouldnt doesn't diminish the battles. A good commander listens to advisors.

He did more at Blackwater then tell men to hold the gate. He weakens Stannis by using his wildlings in the forest, burned Stannis' navy with wildfire and a chain, destroyed the "bridge" that Stannis' forces were using and he invited the Tyrrell army into the crowns grace.

Because Jorah and Barristan had similar roles in Slavers Bay, but Barristan also had more experience with command in Westeros than Jorah did... not that I think either are on the level of JonCon/Stannis/Randyll.

Does Dany really get credit for the conquest if most of 'her plans' were thought of and executed by her advisors/soldiers? I'm not trying to undermine her role, but it'd misleading to say she has done enough to place her name up there with the other great commanders left. Same with Tyrion - I'd say most of his efforts fall under strategy - he does very little commanding. He plans the defence of KL and he helps get the Tyrell's involved, but I don't think thulis actually makes him a great commander, per se.

I think being a great commander doesn't just mean you make good decisions in relation to conflict, which seems to be where we disagree.

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Asha Greyjoy is known to be a pretty fierce fighter, ship captain, and motivator of men.

Dany is perhaps the most inspirational of leader I think winning people to her cause at first with very little in the way of wealth or military might. By her message and tenacity (and dragons) she won the hearts and minds of the people.

Jon Snow seems to have the best instinct as to what is best for his specific challenge in the north and sees beyond the traditions of men toward the bigger picture.

 . . . These qualities, a great commander do not make.

Aegon (Young Griff) has been groomed for leadership but is yet relatively untested.

Jaime is a great swordsman but so is (to a lesser extent admitedly) Loras Tyrell. That does not make a commander.

Baristan is brave, loyal and honorable and has the benefit of wisdom and experiance but still . . . not a commander. Except maybe Lord Commander of the KG. 6x Men

I would have to say . . .

Tyrion Lannister

Stannis Baratheon

Randall Tarley

Roose Bolton

The Blackfish

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18 minutes ago, Fox of House McCloud said:

Because Jorah and Barristan had similar roles in Slavers Bay, but Barristan also had more experience with command in Westeros than Jorah did... not that I think either are on the level of JonCon/Stannis/Randyll.

Does Dany really get credit for the conquest if most of 'her plans' were thought of and executed by her advisors/soldiers? I'm not trying to undermine her role, but it'd misleading to say she has done enough to place her name up there with the other great commanders left. Same with Tyrion - I'd say most of his efforts fall under strategy - he does very little commanding. He plans the defence of KL and he helps get the Tyrell's involved, but I don't think thulis actually makes him a great commander, per se.

I think being a great commander doesn't just mean you make good decisions in relation to conflict, which seems to be where we disagree.

Why are Griff and Stannis commanders then? And why is Stannis one of the best?

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