Who are the best commanders who are still alive?

[DMC]

3 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

It wasn't just custom officers, Littlefinger had men in every facet of Kings Landing bureaucracy , who knows what effect there would be on Kings Landing if Littlefinger was imprisoned or killed especially during a siege . These were men of lower birth who would have never received their appointments under normal Master's of Coin who would only give appointments to men of higher birth so naturally they would be more loyal to Littlefinger because of that . Also don't forget that Littlefinger had influence over the Gold Cloaks (he's the one who got them to go with Cersei over Ned ) so could Tyrion even trust them to follow his orders to arrest or kill Littlefinger ? 

Regarding the gold cloaks, Tyrion did negate LF's influence by replacing Slynt with Bywater.  As he remarks, he likely merely replaced one of LF's men for one of Varys', but it appeared to work - Tyrion relies on Bywater quite a bit in the lead up to the Blackwater (say that ten times fast).

As for the bureaucracy, I want to highlight part of the quote you gave:

Quote

They were men of middling birth, by and large; merchants' sons, lesser lordlings, sometimes even foreigners, but judging from their results, far more able than their highborn predecessors.

Littlefinger appears to have built a meritocracy more than anything.  How do you think he has their loyalty?  Likely through coin - I sincerely doubt these people have great love for the man.  If a bureaucracy is effective, replacing its head won't change that as long as you continue to grant them discretion (and keep on paying them).  And if these officers were not effective, then, well, it seems Tyrion would be well-served to replace them anyway.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, The Drunkard said:

"The Hound's gone, no one knows where, and Ser Balon's fallen back inside the city. The riverside's theirs. They're ramming at the King's Gate again, and Ser Lancel's right, your men are deserting the walls and killing their own officers. There's mobs at the Iron Gate and the Gate of the Gods fighting to get out, and Flea Bottom's one great drunken riot."

Those ships aren't Salladhor's, btw. His ships are downstream, beyond the chain and unable to land soldiers on the riverside. The ships Tyrion notes are either upstream, landed or in the process of landing. 

Just in general: there'd be no tension in the battle if it was effectively resolved within the opening moves. The wildfire served to level the playing field and prevent a near-immediate Stannis win, but ultimately wasn't enough to stop it entirely. Things get worse and worse for the defenders until all hope seems lost, and then at the climax Tywin and the Tyrells arrive and abruptly change the outcome. Same as with Stannis and the wildlings, Dany and the slavers, etc.

Cool, thanks. Damn mobs.

Word, either ships that landed or ships that were made to build the bridge. Although those ships landed early, before Tyrion led his charge.

There definatly was dire tension in the battlefield. And I agree that KL faced losses of men and morale staggeringly throughout the battle. But so did Stannis. 

At the climax when Renlys Ghost took them in the rear, I think everyone agrees Stannis lost. But the thing is Tyrion was still fighting then, along with Bronn and Balon Swann. Stannis' retreat was eminent.

[Blackfish Tully]

1 hour ago, dmc515 said:

Regarding the gold cloaks, Tyrion did negate LF's influence by replacing Slynt with Bywater.  As he remarks, he likely merely replaced one of LF's men for one of Varys', but it appeared to work - Tyrion relies on Bywater quite a bit in the lead up to the Blackwater (say that ten times fast).

Bywater was Tyrion's man but how many of the other Gold Cloaks were Littlefingers? and how confident could Tyrion be in Bywater really? And don't forget that Bywater was killed by his own men so i would not put to much in the loyalty of the Gold Cloaks to him . 

 

1 hour ago, dmc515 said:

As for the bureaucracy, I want to highlight part of the quote you gave:

Littlefinger appears to have built a meritocracy more than anything.  How do you think he has their loyalty?  Likely through coin - I sincerely doubt these people have great love for the man.  If a bureaucracy is effective, replacing its head won't change that as long as you continue to grant them discretion (and keep on paying them).  And if these officers were not effective, then, well, it seems Tyrion would be well-served to replace them anyway.

He has their loyalty because he gave them their positions based on their ability and not because of their noble birth , how rare is that in Westeroes? i would imagine it's pretty rare especially in a place like Kings Landing . They got their jobs because of Littlefinger and i'm sure that he pays them pretty well and rewards their loyalty so why would they not be loyal to him?

In Westeroes if you do not have the right name or family connections then you have little  chance to succeed no matter how talented or hard you work . Littlefinger seems to be the only one who is tapping into these " merchants' sons, lesser lordlings, sometimes even foreigners " who are very talented and smart and is using them to create a powerful network around himself . If i'm one of those bureaucrats  I'm going to be a hell of a lot more loyal to someone like Littlefinger who succeeded because of his talent and ability and is giving me an opportunity because of my talents and abilities then i would be to the Lannisters who only care about what your last name is and have zero appreciation for anyone's ability. Is there any chance Cersei would ever promote or name anybody to an important position if they did not have the right name or family connections? A perfect example is the two people who are named to replace Littlefinger , Tywin named Garth Tyrell to replace Littlefinger but Cersei changed it to Gyles Rosby , both are only qualified because of their last name.  Why would any of the Kings Landing bureaucrats have any loyalty to the Lannisters or Tyrells? they wouldn't but they may have a lot of loyalty still for Littlefinger. 

[DMC]

2 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

snip

Bywater was killed by his men because the battle broke (or at least appeared to).  You think it would have been any different if it was Slynt or any other LF puppet as commander?  (Well, I suppose a difference is Slynt would be fleeing with them...)  Bywater still managed to restore peace after the riot, as well as take a sojourn to Rosby and return while still maintaining command.  It appeared the gold cloaks accepted his (and by proxy Tyrion's) command for all intents and purposes - although to be fair LF was gone for much of this.

As for the bureaucrats, LF created a much fairer system by rewarding self-made men, true.  But that cuts both ways.  Self-made men also tend to be rational, or "self interested," rather than employing loyalty to a name or even an individual at the detriment to themselves.  While it's laudable that LF built the closest thing resembling a modern bureaucracy (in Westeros at least), that means he's also subject to how they work.

[Blackfish Tully]

1 minute ago, dmc515 said:

As for the bureaucrats, LF created a much fairer system by rewarding self-made men, true.  But that cuts both ways.  Self-made men also tend to be rational, or "self interested," rather than employing loyalty to a name or even an individual at the detriment to themselves.  While it's laudable that LF built the closest thing resembling a modern bureaucracy (in Westeros at least), that means he's also subject to how they work.

and who would understand the "self interested" part better then Littlefinger ? Littlefinger understands the men who work for him a hell of a lot better then most of Westeroes Great Lords and he would know how far to trust them and he would make sure that their self interest aligns up with his as much as possible to ensure their loyalty . 

If you were one of these self-made men who would you be supporting during these turbulent times? Littlefinger who has created a fairer system and has shown that he will reward self-made men like you or one of the other Great Lords who don't give a crap about self-made men and will only care about keeping the old unfair system going . I think Littlefinger has the loyalty of a lot more people then he is usually given credit for. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Blackfish Tully said:

snip

As I said, if Tyrion continues to grant them the same discretion and pays them (at least) the same, it is in their interest to continue in their post.  It is true that Tyrion would have to build trust with the officers - and that is exactly how he would earn it.  In canonical bureaucratic theory it is called maintaining the agency's "mission."  Loyalty for loyalty's sake is not rational.

[Blackfish Tully]

1 minute ago, dmc515 said:

As I said, if Tyrion continues to grant them the same discretion and pays them (at least) the same, it is in their interest to continue in their post.  It is true that Tyrion would have to build trust with the officers - and that is exactly how he would earn it.  In canonical bureaucratic theory it is called maintaining the agency's "mission."  Loyalty for loyalty's sake is not rational.

Tyrion may have been able to build that trust , he is a pretty unique guy among the powerful families of Westeroes (which may be a reason that Littlefinger wanted him dead) but i don't think there is anybody else among the Westeroes powerful families that would have that ability to gain their trust besides Tyrion so i think it's safe to say that the men that Littlefinger put in place in powerful positions in Kings Landing are still loyal to him , Why would they not be loyal to the man who trusted and rewarded them and who has also gone  from being a virtual nobody to becoming the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and the Lord Protector of the Vale and the Lord of Harrenhall in a blink of an eye , frankly Littlefinger is probably a folk hero to those men at this point . Who else could have done what he's done in such short amount of time? 

[Hugorfonics]

59 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Tyrion may have been able to build that trust , he is a pretty unique guy among the powerful families of Westeroes (which may be a reason that Littlefinger wanted him dead) but i don't think there is anybody else among the Westeroes powerful families that would have that ability to gain their trust besides Tyrion so i think it's safe to say that the men that Littlefinger put in place in powerful positions in Kings Landing are still loyal to him , Why would they not be loyal to the man who trusted and rewarded them and who has also gone  from being a virtual nobody to becoming the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and the Lord Protector of the Vale and the Lord of Harrenhall in a blink of an eye , frankly Littlefinger is probably a folk hero to those men at this point . Who else could have done what he's done in such short amount of time? 

Its easy to be loyal to one that let's you thrive in corruption. Then again there's a chance Petyr is blackmailing and allowing the corruption to run rampant, guaranteeing their loyalty

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 6/1/2016 at 0:35 PM, Lord of Moat Cailin said:

I'm thinking, Brynden Tully, Barristan Selmy, Daenerys Targaryen, Aegon Targaryen, Randyll Tarly, Addam Marbrand and if Jon gets reincarnated, Jon Snow

1. Barristan
2. Randyll
3. Daenerys
4. Blackfish
5. Aegon (But that is more Jon Connington's work)
6. Stannis
7. Roose

I would not put Jon on that list yet.  All he did was defend a 700 foot wall and Stannis had to save his bacon.

[Blackfish Tully]

Look at it this way .

Say you are John Q Merchantson and you have been working at  Kings Landing's treasury  for your whole adult life , you have a gift for finances and are a very hard working, talented guy but you spend your whole career in obscurity because you are constantly being denied promotions because you are not part of the nobility of Westeroes. The Master of Coin is always some political appointee  who has very little idea of how fiances work and everybody in key or powerful positions in the bureaucracy is there because of politics and nobody cares about all your hard work. Along comes Littlefinger as the Master of Coin and he recognizes your talents and gives you the promotions that you have earned and eventually you are in a powerful and important position at the treasury and it's all because Littlefinger , wouldn't he have your trust more so then any Lannister or Tyrell ? 

[Hugorfonics]

3 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Look at it this way .

Say you are John Q Merchantson and you have been working at  Kings Landing's treasury  for your whole adult life , you have a gift for finances and are a very hard working, talented guy but you spend your whole career in obscurity because you are constantly being denied promotions because you are not part of the nobility of Westeroes. The Master of Coin is always some political appointee  who has very little idea of how fiances work and everybody in key or powerful positions in the bureaucracy is there because of politics and nobody cares about all your hard work. Along comes Littlefinger as the Master of Coin and he recognizes your talents and gives you the promotions that you have earned and eventually you are in a powerful and important position at the treasury and it's all because Littlefinger , wouldn't he have your trust more so then any Lannister or Tyrell ? 

How many smallfolk can do arithmetic?

Why do you have this idea that Petyrs employees are good at their jobs? 

Stannis, who also hires on merit, wants Petyr hanged for embezzlement and stuff

[Blackfish Tully]

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

How many smallfolk can do arithmetic?

Why do you have this idea that Petyrs employees are good at their jobs? 

 

Why would small folk not be able to do arithmetic? Also we are not talking only about small folk but merchant sons , minor lords , second sons , foreigners who i'm pretty sure would be able to do arithmetic .

as for where i got the idea that Petyrs employees are good at their jobs , i got it straight from Tyrion .

 

"And in the process, he moved his own men into place. The Keepers of the Keys were his, all four. The King's Counter and the King's Scales were men he'd named. The officers in charge of all three mints. Harbormasters, tax farmers, customs sergeants, wool factors, toll collectors, pursers, wine factors; nine of every ten belonged to Littlefinger. They were men of middling birth, by and large; merchants' sons, lesser lordlings, sometimes even foreigners, but judging from their results, far more able than their highborn predecessors. "

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Stannis (amazing the ranking some folks give him considering his cv compared to others, a man who even Tywin controling the crown considered a greater threat than robb/renly(tarly)/balon put together); Tarly (good job at BW, and defeated Robert albeit undecisively and with larger numbers, but still beating Robert with number and terrain advantage is still a great and very hard feat to manage, he made a Wellington/Blücher on Bonaparte)...

The rest known commanders alive are fine, but clearly behind those 2 imo

[Hugorfonics]

47 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Why would small folk not be able to do arithmetic? Also we are not talking only about small folk but merchant sons , minor lords , second sons , foreigners who i'm pretty sure would be able to do arithmetic .

as for where i got the idea that Petyrs employees are good at their jobs , i got it straight from Tyrion .

 

"And in the process, he moved his own men into place. The Keepers of the Keys were his, all four. The King's Counter and the King's Scales were men he'd named. The officers in charge of all three mints. Harbormasters, tax farmers, customs sergeants, wool factors, toll collectors, pursers, wine factors; nine of every ten belonged to Littlefinger. They were men of middling birth, by and large; merchants' sons, lesser lordlings, sometimes even foreigners, but judging from their results, far more able than their highborn predecessors. "

Word. I guess crooked competence is better then just incompetent. Although the incompetent could also have been thieving, maybe everybody does steal like Robert/Petyr says

[YOVMO]

Got to say Randyl and Stannis. 

 

I know a lot of people say blackfish and they may or may not been right..but I don't know how he is as a commander. 

 

For what it is worth the mountain was a great commander. Whether we want to consider him alive or not is...ya know.

 

Jamie is a great warrior but a shit commander. Tywin is dead. For what it is worth....Euron, though you despise him maybe, is an excellent commander. 

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

Stannis (amazing the ranking some folks give him considering his cv compared to others, a man who even Tywin controling the crown considered a greater threat than robb/renly(tarly)/balon put together); Tarly (good job at BW, and defeated Robert albeit undecisively and with larger numbers, but still beating Robert with number and terrain advantage is still a great and very hard feat to manage, he made a Wellington/Blücher on Bonaparte)...

The rest known commanders alive are fine, but clearly behind those 2 imo

What about Euron?

[Frey Pie]

I'd take Jaime any day of the week. Ya he got caught in an ambush, by arguably the best commander in the books, and the best team in Robb and Brynden. Jaime wasn't rash at the time,  he took 2000 men to deal with a supposedly small body of men harassing his army, which is actually very cautious 

He also had his army well layed out in Riverrun, defended by pikes and such. So I never count this as a point against Jaime, just a point for Robb 

When taken into account what he did to the first two riverlands armies and has new more mature outlook I think he's very formidable. And he's got what few others do, reputation and charisma 

[Frey Pie]

10 hours ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

Stannis (amazing the ranking some folks give him considering his cv compared to others, a man who even Tywin controling the crown considered a greater threat than robb/renly(tarly)/balon put together); Tarly (good job at BW, and defeated Robert albeit undecisively and with larger numbers, but still beating Robert with number and terrain advantage is still a great and very hard feat to manage, he made a Wellington/Blücher on Bonaparte)...

The rest known commanders alive are fine, but clearly behind those 2 imo

I agree, Stannis has the record,  and is the only flexible commander having led all different types of battles, naval and land 

I'd never use Tywins quote though as to me it's an absolute ass pull. With equal numbers to Robb or Renly he was the bigger threat but there's not a hope that at that time Stannis and his 5000 are more of a threat then Renlys 80000 and Robbs 20000-30000 (with the potential for a lot more)

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

1 hour ago, Frey Pie said:

I agree, Stannis has the record,  and is the only flexible commander having led all different types of battles, naval and land 

I'd never use Tywins quote though as to me it's an absolute ass pull. With equal numbers to Robb or Renly he was the bigger threat but there's not a hope that at that time Stannis and his 5000 are more of a threat then Renlys 80000 and Robbs 20000-30000 (with the potential for a lot more)

I have the idea Tywin was talking about warfare knowledge (not on numbers clearly), George wouldn´t pull a dumb strategic quote out of a master of strategy like the old lion... Robb (while a prodigy like few others) was too young to have a reputation on par with Stannis, Tywin did not know yet if or what weaknesses Robb had as a commander, Stannis was an encyclopedia altogether the last 15 years

10 hours ago, YOVMO said:

What about Euron?

Euron imo is a scale below those 2... Naval wise he´s superior to Tarly (and well inferior on land), Stannis is good at both fields (not at Robert´s level on land mind you)... as for Euron and Stannis i separate them naval wise (as a portuguese guy) like i separate Afonso Albuquerque (arguably the greatest naval mando of his age who ruled the indian and arabic sea with an iron fist, his wiki is quick to read about) and Bartolomeu Portugues (Portuguese Bartholomew, a great naval mind, but a pirate mando who made up the Pirates code, the one evolved by bartholomew roberts etc seen in the pirates of the caribbean films)...

Albuquerque (Stannis) and Bartolomeu (Euron), then again there´s trais of albuquerque on Euron so i would say he´s a good mix of the 2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afonso_de_Albuquerque

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolomeu_Portugu%C3%AAs

Of course every country has at least a fine equivalent, but there you go...

[YOVMO]

24 minutes ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

I have the idea Tywin was talking about warfare knowledge (not on numbers clearly), George wouldn´t pull a dumb strategic quote out of a master of strategy like the old lion... Robb (while a prodigy like few others) was too young to have a reputation on par with Stannis, Tywin did not know yet if or what weaknesses Robb had as a commander, Stannis was an encyclopedia altogether the last 15 years

Euron imo is a scale below those 2... Naval wise he´s superior to Tarly (and well inferior on land), Stannis is good at both fields (not at Robert´s level on land mind you)... as for Euron and Stannis i separate them naval wise (as a portuguese guy) like i separate Afonso Albuquerque (arguably the greatest naval mando of his age who ruled the indian and arabic sea with an iron fist, his wiki is quick to read about) and Bartolomeu Portugues (Portuguese Bartholomew, a great naval mind, but a pirate mando who made up the Pirates code, the one evolved by bartholomew roberts etc seen in the pirates of the caribbean films)...

Albuquerque (Stannis) and Bartolomeu (Euron), then again there´s trais of albuquerque on Euron so i would say he´s a good mix of the 2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afonso_de_Albuquerque

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolomeu_Portugu%C3%AAs

Of course every country has at least a fine equivalent, but there you go...

very cool info. Tx.

 

so I am going on record as saying that the three  greatest living battle commanders are Tarly, Stannis and Euron in no particular order