The Problem with the King's Landing story

[TickTak7]

Is that there's no one to cheer for. 

Are we meant to cheer for the High Sparrow? Religious figure who wants to give back to the smallfolk, but quite clearly a manipulative individual who seems hungry for status and position.

Are we meant to cheer for Cersei? She was humiliated by the faith and she lost her daughter, but she's not exactly been a sympathetic character this season. 

Are we meant to cheer for Jaime? Maybe, but he's too busy being Cersei's lapdog that his redemptive arc has been forgotten. 

Are we meant to cheer for Marg? No one really even knows what is in Marg's head right now. Has she converted fully to the faith, or is she simply manipulating?

Are we meant to cheer for Tommen? LOL. 

My issue with the King's Landing, beyond the fact that it just isn't all that interesting, is that there's no obvious party to cheer for, and because of that, it's hard as a viewer to really give a damn about what happens. Compare that to a Jon or Sansa or Arya storyline, where we know what we want from the characters. Do we get that from King's Landing?

 

[RedShirt47]

Do we need black and white characters everywehere? Should it always be good guys and bad guys? Some folk will root for Tommen as he's a relatively nice guy. Some will root for Marg. Some for HS as they hope he will help the smallfolk. Some may even like Cersei. Some won't root for anyone.

Can't we just enjoy the story and see where it goes? Only the North has good guys and bad guys but most other stories are more grey. Who do we support on the Iron Islands? They're all pillaging raiders. Are we really supposed to root for Dany? She intends to bring a horde of pillagers to Westeros, that really can't be good for too many folk. Do we root for Littlefigner or Robin Arryn? Surely there is nobody in Dorne to root for?

[Epyon]

I understand what you are saying, but I think it's the writing on the characters themselves, that's flawed with King's Landing atm....

Every character is supposed to have shades of black and white in them, and that is part of what kept them from getting flat, and yet a great many of them are losing that edge, because their story arc is non existent...

Book Jaime, realizes Cersei is a manipulative *female dog*, and seemingly makes a concerted effort to do the honorable thing and redeem his arc.... Show Jaime, shows flashes of that, flashes of wanting to be a father figure to his kids, then flashes back to the same exact shortsighted douche we saw in season 1.

Cersei's arc was supposed to be a tragic downfall of a power seeking woman in a society run by men.... She's supposed to be the female Tony Montana of Westeros..... She hated Robert, and ironically basically becomes him in the books. And her desire to have been born a man is a driving force of her pathology...... In the show, she just kind of exists right now, wandering aimlessly from plot point to plot point, with scarcely little connecting the dots together.  Last episode the girls from Dorne killed her daughter.... and then we never heard about her again.... There wasn't a story arc there... Ditto for her walk of shame.... As soon as it ended, she became Season 1 Cersei again.

 

It's not just King's Landing that has been done this way..... Daenarys is arguably the show's worst offender in that regard..... In the books, her path is a struggle of a young, idealistic, and naive little girl trying to run the world.... and FAILING MISERABLY as she tries to figure out how to become a good leader, while fighting off things like discovering her sexuality during puberty/ as a very young teen.....  Show Daenarys on the other hand, is a nigh infallible Mary Sue, who basically just stumbles around from location to location waiting for her problems to solve themselves because she's so damn special.

[CockroachCaptain]

King's Landing and Mereen are both suffering from the lack of Tysha/Kettleback arcs. Both Jaime and Tyrion should be toiling in their own personal hells but instead they've reverted to the same old incestuous plaything and same old drunk friendless dwarf from season one. It's torture.

Much as I am loathe to see his white book redemption stripped, I'm ecstatic that Jaime's FINALLY headed to the Riverlands.

[Good Guy Garlan]

The main problem is that it drags. It just goes on and on and on and nothing happens. The High Sparrow has a lengthy monologue. Rinse and repeat. It's just so aimless. 

But yeah, the fact that there's no one to root for is a problem as well. We should be rooting for Cersei to tear down the Faith, but she's been sooooo boring this season. Lena Headey has been so subdued I think she's about to fall asleep in almost every scene she's in. Like, your brother's supposed to be Jimmy Whispers, not you. Speak up, lady. 

[Ruhail]

I think the real problem is that theres no more real politics or threats to KL outside it bar Daenerys and that means they have to rely solely on the sparrows whilst they twiddle their thumbs for Dany to come.

[Lemore]

Clearly Lady Ollena is the correct answer 

[Neds Secret]

3 hours ago, RedShirt47 said:

Do we need black and white characters everywehere? Should it always be good guys and bad guys? Some folk will root for Tommen as he's a relatively nice guy. Some will root for Marg. Some for HS as they hope he will help the smallfolk. Some may even like Cersei. Some won't root for anyone.

Can't we just enjoy the story and see where it goes? Only the North has good guys and bad guys but most other stories are more grey. Who do we support on the Iron Islands? They're all pillaging raiders. Are we really supposed to root for Dany? She intends to bring a horde of pillagers to Westeros, that really can't be good for too many folk. Do we root for Littlefigner or Robin Arryn? Surely there is nobody in Dorne to root for?

It's hard to enjoy the story when it just doesn't make sense. There is no edge to it, no tension, no consistent motivations, and it's boring. Margeary does a 180, why? Why is Loras suddenly so weak ? Why doe the faith suddenly have all this authority? Homosexuality isn't illegal in Westeros and either was alcohol! It's not the sort of storyline I signed up for when I became a fan of GoT, the story is illogical, inconsistent and nonsensical 

[Kiwi]

56 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

It's hard to enjoy the story when it just doesn't make sense. There is no edge to it, no tension, no consistent motivations, and it's boring. Margeary does a 180, why? Why is Loras suddenly so weak ? Why doe the faith suddenly have all this authority? Homosexuality isn't illegal in Westeros and either was alcohol! It's not the sort of storyline I signed up for when I became a fan of GoT, the story is illogical, inconsistent and nonsensical 

I think it's quite clear that Margeary is not having a "180", but rather putting on a show for HS and Tommen, so that HS thinks he achieved his goal (getting to Tommen) and she gets her freedom back.

Also, viewers never had any particular reason to believe Loras to be emotionally strong. Aaaand I'm pretty sure that being broken under imprisonment, torture, starvation, beating and religious mumbo-jumbo is not a sign of weakness.

Aaaaaalso, homosexuality is forbidden by the rules of faith of the seven. And so is alcohol, apparently. Homosexuality is not banned by law in Westeros, but I don't think the situation here is under real, physical control of the state. I don't see any inconsistencies here

I hope that cleared it up a bit. The show has its flaws, but I don't see a reason to consider anything you mentioned a real flaw.

[DrogonTargaryen]

I'm cheering for Ser Pounce

[GilletteMace]

Pretty obvious who i cheer for... Mace is the man! His pump up speech was one of the last episodes highlights. more Mace shown in KL, less problems with KL.

of all the characters in KL iwant to see the HS, margery and tommen dead. getting rid of HS will be as entertaining to me as Joffreys death. all i hope for is frankenmountains famous headcrusher.

[David Selig]

No, the problem is that it is relentlessly and mindbogglingly stupid. Nothing about it makes any sense.

[GilletteMace]

its a tv show, its not meant to make sense...

[Masha]

To be frank, I hated KL Cersei-only storyline in the books as well, I considered it extremely boring with whole Taesha/Kettlebacks. The only entertainment was mad-queen Cersei.  So, I did not expect show to improve much on that storyline.  How can they improve on something that was kind of boring, slow-moving full of extremely unlikeable characters in the first place? Did you root for anyone in there while reading the books? All remaining characters in KL were just horrible. The books saved themselves when Dance with Dragons came out and realizing all those little hints and rumours that Cersei ignored or mismanaged really were.

 

[Charlie Of House Bucket]

I feel like the death of Tywin and the bogging down of Daenerys in Meereen bureaucracy was the beginning of a general problem and overall slowing - not just in King's Landing.  It's a great thing that GRRM can kill off so many gigantic characters to advance things, but it does carry with it the problem that big holes are left in the literary wake that need to be filled. 

- - - - - - - - - -

It's not just that there's no one to cheer for in KL.  IMO, the remaining and upcoming villains are mostly less compelling too. 

Ramsay Bolton is 100% vicious psychopath torturer - pretty one dimensional.  Contrast him with Joffrey, who was a brat with absolute power and also a vicious bully, but he was a child, a coward, and often easily manipulated, confused, outwitted, or rattled by characters with stronger personalities.  He was much less predictable, which added tension and interest to any scene he was in.  I hated that kid much, much more.  It seems they might be grooming Robert/Robin Arryn to be Joffrey's replacement, but we'll see.

Cersei is still a big character - mostly villain but victim too.  However, her interactions with Tyrion, Tywin, and Joffrey have been severed, and she's a bit less interesting now because of it.  In the books she builds up a disastrous group of obsequious and incompetent toadies, etc, and it's much better fleshed out than the show, but they're mostly vessels for her disastrous decisions when she's in full-blown revenge mode.

Walder Frey is a creepy, bitter old man with a wry sense of humour, and a classic traitor.  His problem is that other than the Red Wedding he's been in the background.  Hopefully they do something with him before his demise.

Euron Greyjoy is an undeveloped character, but so far in the show version he seems like a big blowhard and not much more.  Again, we'll see. 

The high septon/The Faith:  Ascetic pious religious torturers are something I don't usually have a taste for in most stories.  The Faith came to rather sudden impregnable power, partially out of a bad decision by Cersei, and the whole manner of it feels a bit forced and artificial to me, and GRRM - love ya - but in the books too.

The white walkers and their undead army are somewhere near zombie categorisation. 

Sons of the Harpy are an offscreen entity.  Okay.  I want them to succeed, actually, or die soon, because maybe it will finally get Dany out of Meereen for good.

Petyr Baelish is probably the most interesting villain left aside from maybe Cersei, but since his whole game is predicated on not letting anyone know his game (including the audience), we're left with somewhat incomplete information and he's also mostly background. 

[SuperMario]

6 hours ago, Ruhail said:

I think the real problem is that theres no more real politics or threats to KL outside it bar Daenerys and that means they have to rely solely on the sparrows whilst they twiddle their thumbs for Dany to come.

Not unless you count the two sand snakes who somehow snuck onto the ship while it was near? in? King's Landing and killed Trystane. But since Dorne has been non-existent for 5 episodes, it appears D&D are not considering that either.

[Pile-O-Starks]

20 hours ago, TickTak7 said:

Is that there's no one to cheer for. 

This might be what they're going for. Burn it to the ground. Nobody likes these people anyway.

[Daenerys_Is_Coming]

9 hours ago, Epyon said:

I understand what you are saying, but I think it's the writing on the characters themselves, that's flawed with King's Landing atm....

Every character is supposed to have shades of black and white in them, and that is part of what kept them from getting flat, and yet a great many of them are losing that edge, because their story arc is non existent...

Book Jaime, realizes Cersei is a manipulative *female dog*, and seemingly makes a concerted effort to do the honorable thing and redeem his arc.... Show Jaime, shows flashes of that, flashes of wanting to be a father figure to his kids, then flashes back to the same exact shortsighted douche we saw in season 1.

Cersei's arc was supposed to be a tragic downfall of a power seeking woman in a society run by men.... She's supposed to be the female Tony Montana of Westeros..... She hated Robert, and ironically basically becomes him in the books. And her desire to have been born a man is a driving force of her pathology...... In the show, she just kind of exists right now, wandering aimlessly from plot point to plot point, with scarcely little connecting the dots together.  Last episode the girls from Dorne killed her daughter.... and then we never heard about her again.... There wasn't a story arc there... Ditto for her walk of shame.... As soon as it ended, she became Season 1 Cersei again.

 

It's not just King's Landing that has been done this way..... Daenarys is arguably the show's worst offender in that regard..... In the books, her path is a struggle of a young, idealistic, and naive little girl trying to run the world.... and FAILING MISERABLY as she tries to figure out how to become a good leader, while fighting off things like discovering her sexuality during puberty/ as a very young teen.....  Show Daenarys on the other hand, is a nigh infallible Mary Sue, who basically just stumbles around from location to location waiting for her problems to solve themselves because she's so damn special.

Excellent analysis.

Since most of the ASOIAF chapters are written in POV, the show has lost some of that inner turmoil and struggle we get to read about in the books. If I had never read a single page and was just a show watcher, I don't think I would ever pick up on the idea that Jamie is conflicted or upset about breaking his vows to Catlyn. There has been literally zero effort by the writers to create a redemption story arc for Jamie. There were minor flashes of it in "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" but that was three seasons ago and there's been little since to remind us that Jamie's character is more than just Cersei's handbag. It's possible that the writer's are waiting for one big redemption extravaganza, but without the build up I think it will fall flat. 

Same with Cersei. The show lost a lot by cutting Taesha and the Kettlebacks, because Taesha provided a sounding board by which the writers could have extracted Cersei's inner thoughts of deception, betrayal, paranoia, and scheming through conversations between the tow characters. Instead  - you nailed it - she just sort of "exists" right now with no other purpose than to remind us each week she will "get her revenge!" No mention of Myrcella, no discussion of how the Walk of Shame impacted her, she just goes back to plotting revenge against her enemies with no real charcter development other than a haircut. 

I can write an opus on my issues with the showDany portrayal, but after they completed botched Daznak's Pit (she was supposed to TAME Drogon, not be rescued by him) I gave up on being upset about about her portrayal on the show and accepted she was just going to be an untouchable character that everyone loves because she has (excuse me) TITS and DRAGONS! Who needs a multi-faceted character who is literally learning how to be a woman as she navigates conquoring the Seven Kingdoms when you've got DRAGONS, right?  

[Epyon]

4 hours ago, Daenerys_Is_Coming said:

Excellent analysis.

Since most of the ASOIAF chapters are written in POV, the show has lost some of that inner turmoil and struggle we get to read about in the books. If I had never read a single page and was just a show watcher, I don't think I would ever pick up on the idea that Jamie is conflicted or upset about breaking his vows to Catlyn. There has been literally zero effort by the writers to create a redemption story arc for Jamie. There were minor flashes of it in "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" but that was three seasons ago and there's been little since to remind us that Jamie's character is more than just Cersei's handbag. It's possible that the writer's are waiting for one big redemption extravaganza, but without the build up I think it will fall flat. 

Same with Cersei. The show lost a lot by cutting Taesha and the Kettlebacks, because Taesha provided a sounding board by which the writers could have extracted Cersei's inner thoughts of deception, betrayal, paranoia, and scheming through conversations between the tow characters. Instead  - you nailed it - she just sort of "exists" right now with no other purpose than to remind us each week she will "get her revenge!" No mention of Myrcella, no discussion of how the Walk of Shame impacted her, she just goes back to plotting revenge against her enemies with no real charcter development other than a haircut. 

I can write an opus on my issues with the showDany portrayal, but after they completed botched Daznak's Pit (she was supposed to TAME Drogon, not be rescued by him) I gave up on being upset about about her portrayal on the show and accepted she was just going to be an untouchable character that everyone loves because she has (excuse me) TITS and DRAGONS! Who needs a multi-faceted character who is literally learning how to be a woman as she navigates conquoring the Seven Kingdoms when you've got DRAGONS, right?  

The Jaime/Cersei connection is actually among the most troubling, the more I think about it.....

Having them rekindle their romance was the wrong move entirely for the show, and it's a major reason King's Landing is falling flat right now.

Their estrangement would have given King's Landing a dramatic edge that it's currently lacking, and given a platform to better hammer home the ideas about Cersei really using/manipulating Jaime specifically, out of jealousy that he was born the boy, and she the girl.... when she was the ambitious and arguably vicious true heir to Tywin.  It also would have made her rise to power really help parallel King Robert's in that they where both conquerors (him martially, her politically/emotionally) who could win power via domination, but ended up entirely ill equipped to actually RULE. She'd be an evil *female dog*, but at least her machinations, and motivations would make sense as a desperate bid for power as someone born to the wrong gender for the society she was in. Finally, it would have put her into a more isolated and destabilized state following her walk of shame, giving that event and the consequences of it, more impact..... rather than just having her run right back to Jaime.

And from Jaime's perspective his realization of the true toxic nature of his/Cersei's relationship, would have shattered his already eroding relationship with her, and given him real purpose to basically abandon her, and pursue his redemption arc, as it does in the books. More than just breaking the relationship, it would likely shatter Jaime's entire concepts of love and trust (remember, this is not only his "true love" in his mind, but also the only girl he's really been with, and he's literally always been with her), and really be a driving force for life re-evaluation.

Part of the other problem, is Tommen's age.... In the books he's too young to do anything.... So while he's King, Cersei is the de facto ruler...  After Cersei's walk, Kevan is the de facto ruler.  In this recent episode Tommen stood up to Jaime, and is ruling on his own (albeit with the manipulations of the HS).....It kind of kills Cersei and Kevan's importance, if Tommen is really running the show.

[ummester]

I agree the narrative of both ASoIaF and GoTs is dragging too much in it's final act, however, with regards the no-one to root for - I think that is exactly where this story is headed, overall. There will not be any heroes, just degrees of antagonism and if you want to root for someone, then you are going to have to go with who you dislike the least (just like modern politics ) I think that if people don't like this idea, then they wont like the ending of the story in book or on TV.