Jaime Lannister, a hypocrite and criminal?

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, Boarsbane said:

This contradicts what the man who actually wrote the books has said on the subject 

GRRM wrote Jaime as a man not giving a shit about his kids or so arrogant and narcissistic that he didn't think he'll lose against Robert or not caring that him and Cersei were found out so that he could openly claim his sister. This is EXACTLY how George wrote Jaime. 

I have read what GRRM said about the matter but he didn't write Jaime as a man trying to kill a child to protect his lover and children. When we get inside Jaime's head in ASOS we know how he doesn't give a fuck about those kids or how he was happy that people knew about the incest cause than him and Cersei could be together. 

[Boarsbane]

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

GRRM wrote Jaime as a man not giving a shit about his kids or so arrogant and narcissistic that he didn't think he'll lose against Robert or not caring that him and Cersei were found out so that he could openly claim his sister. This is EXACTLY how George wrote Jaime. 

I have read what GRRM said about the matter but he didn't write Jaime as a man trying to kill a child to protect his lover and children. When we get inside Jaime's head in ASOS we know how he doesn't give a fuck about those kids or how he was happy that people knew about the incest cause than him and Cersei could be together. 

I can't believe some people think they know the author's own characters better than himself, I mean seriously we don't see inside his head when he does it so nothing contradicts what George said

[Tianzi]

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

how he was happy that people knew about the incest cause than him and Cersei could be together. 

He wanted to go public after Robert was dead, he was not stupid enough to think exposing the incest while Cersei was the king's wife would be something good or make them able to 'be together'.

[Howland Reed]

There is a common theme in the books about fathers.  You keep referring to Jaime not caring about his children, but Jaime has never had the opportunity to even be their father.   It is kinda like how Jon is very similar to Ned, but we kinda know he is not his father.  How do expect someone to have these fatherly instincts if you are never given the chance to be that figure?  Even then he does think about it with Tommen, and talks to him, and even thinks about being his father figure and letting the world know his relationship and saying fuck it, but it would be suicide.

[The Wolves]

48 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

He wanted to go public after Robert was dead, he was not stupid enough to think exposing the incest while Cersei was the king's wife would be something good or make them able to 'be together'.

See you're wrong, Jaime is that stupid. 

This is the same idiot who kept asking Cersei to marry him publicly regardless of the consequences and that their kids' lives would be in danger. 

[The Wolves]

50 minutes ago, Howland Reed said:

There is a common theme in the books about fathers.  You keep referring to Jaime not caring about his children, but Jaime has never had the opportunity to even be their father. It is kinda like how Jon is very similar to Ned, but we kinda know he is not his father.  How do expect someone to have these fatherly instincts if you are never given the chance to be that figure?  Even then he does think about it with Tommen, and talks to him, and even thinks about being his father figure and letting the world know his relationship and saying fuck it, but it would be suicide.

Jaime not having an opportunity to be a father to his kids is his fault. 

Hes the one who knew that he could never claim a child with Cersei yet he gave her three and stood aside as Cersei called them Robert's kids and didn't even bond with them as a uncle. Jaime created those children and willingly stepped aside because he's a weak piece of shit. 

[Tianzi]

9 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Jaime not having an opportunity to be a father to his kids is his fault. 

Hes the one who knew that he could never claim a child with Cersei yet he gave her three and stood aside as Cersei called them Robert's kids and didn't even bond with them as a uncle. Jaime created those children and willingly stepped aside because he's a weak piece of shit. 

That's true, sadly.

Still, not having fluffy feelings is not being indifferent to their safety. He definitely gave more shit about them than about Bran, anyway.

And he does his best for Tommen in AFFC.

14 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

See you're wrong, Jaime is that stupid. 

This is the same idiot who kept asking Cersei to marry him publicly regardless of the consequences and that their kids' lives would be in danger. 

I remember asking her that when she was a widow. Not a completely smart move, but not that dumb as wanting to go public when Robert was alive. When did he declare wanting to admit to twincesting before Robert's death?

[chrisdaw]

 

Quote

 

See you're wrong, Jaime is that stupid. 

This is the same idiot who kept asking Cersei to marry him publicly regardless of the consequences and that their kids' lives would be in danger. 

 

 

This character has different priorities than I would, he is therefor stupid.

[King Ned Stark]

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

This character has different priorities than I would, he is therefor stupid.

His priorities, up until he is about 35 years of age, seem to be having sex with his sister.  By doing so, committing high treason against the crown and putting himself, his lover/sister, and their children in mortal danger.  I'd say that is fairly stupid.

The problem with Jaime is that all of his problems/crimes come from his own selfish choices.  One has to really stretch logic to paint him in any kind of decent picture: incest-yeah but he loved her, not explaining the killing of Aerys-yeah, but why should he have to defend himself to anyone, attempting to murder a child-yeah, but if he didn't it might risk his own kids.

It's because of this, that he is completely ill-equipped and ineffective in dealing with someone like the Blackfish.  The reasons for his actions that have led him to that point in his life are not viable.  If one likes him they may jump through some hoops to make it seem like everything he did was defensible, but he can not really even defend himself.

A few questions.

1. Did he break guestright?

2. Should he have returned to his cell providing he failed to return the girls?

3. Is love a good enough reason for incest, usurping a throne, and murder?

4. Can he earn redemption without atoning for his prior sins?

[Brannis the Mannis]

15 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

His priorities, up until he is about 35 years of age, seem to be having sex with his sister.  By doing so, committing high treason against the crown and putting himself, his lover/sister, and their children in mortal danger.  I'd say that is fairly stupid.

The problem with Jaime is that all of his problems/crimes come from his own selfish choices.  One has to really stretch logic to paint him in any kind of decent picture: incest-yeah but he loved her, not explaining the killing of Aerys-yeah, but why should he have to defend himself to anyone, attempting to murder a child-yeah, but if he didn't it might risk his own kids.

It's because of this, that he is completely ill-equipped and ineffective in dealing with someone like the Blackfish.  The reasons for his actions that have led him to that point in his life are not viable.  If one likes him they may jump through some hoops to make it seem like everything he did was defensible, but he can not really even defend himself.

A few questions.

1. Did he break guestright?

2. Should he have returned to his cell providing he failed to return the girls?

3. Is love a good enough reason for incest, usurping a throne, and murder?

4. Can he earn redemption without atoning for his prior sins?

1. I don't know what you're referring to here.

2. There are very few men on Planetos who would be so stupid as to do so. It's better to be dishonorable than honorable to the point of insanity. Besides, Cat forced him to swear the oath while holding a sword on him, so it's understandable that he wouldn't keep it.

3. Incest is not necessarily morally wrong. He killed Aerys because he was insane, and was ready to burn down a whole city out of madness. Knights like Selmy and Dayne may have been good warriors, but they were weak in the sense that they valued their precious honor too much to do the morally right thing.

4. 

[The Wolves]

2 hours ago, Brannis the Mannis said:

 

3. Incest is not necessarily morally wrong. He killed Aerys because he was insane, and was ready to burn down a whole city out of madness. Knights like Selmy and Dayne may have been good warriors, but they were weak in the sense that they valued their precious honor too much to do the morally right thing.

 

If this is you saying that Dayne and Semy would have just stood by and watched Aerys burn half a million people alive than I need some evidence cause I don't see it. 

Dont forget that Jaime also stood by and did nothing as Aerys raped and attacked Rhaella repeatedly and burned a bunch of men to death. He also sat smiling as Elia and her children were raped and brutally murdered along with KL. 

Say what you want about Dayne and Selmy but they would have been defending Elia and her kids till the very end. 

[redtree]

51 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

He also sat smiling as Elia and her children were raped and brutally murdered along with KL. 

Say what you want about Dayne and Selmy but they would have been defending Elia and her kids till the very end. 

I'll need a quote on that because that is a blatant character defamation, he had no idea that his father sent Gregor and Amory Lorch to massacre and rape Elia and her children. He was in the throne room when Elia and her children got attacked, still considering whom to crown, Viserys or baby Aegon so clearly he had no idea about Tywin's plan let alone smiling knowing that they did what they did. Jaime can't be in two place at once so this is just not right

Dayne knew that Rhaegar had died and unless he's more stupid than Aerys then he also had figured out that Aerys, his own king, the one he sworn and vowed to protect, Queen Rhaella, prince Viserys, princess Elia, baby Aegon and little Rhaenys were in grave danger but he did nothing, just hanging out at a tower

[Boarsbane]

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

If this is you saying that Dayne and Semy would have just stood by and watched Aerys burn half a million people alive than I need some evidence cause I don't see it. 

Dont forget that Jaime also stood by and did nothing as Aerys raped and attacked Rhaella repeatedly and burned a bunch of men to death. He also sat smiling as Elia and her children were raped and brutally murdered along with KL. 

Say what you want about Dayne and Selmy but they would have been defending Elia and her kids till the very end. 

Your heroes Dayne and Selmy also stood by and did nothing all through Aerys reign of terror, and unlike Jaime they weren't 16 year old boys. 

Don't forget Barristan laid in bed getting nursed by Robert Baratheon's maester while Elia and her children were being murdered and don't forget Dayne was hiding in a completely different region while it happened. 

[HairGrowsBack]

25 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

Your heroes Dayne and Selmy also stood by and did nothing all through Aerys reign of terror, and unlike Jaime they weren't 16 year old boys. 

Don't forget Barristan laid in bed getting nursed by Robert Baratheon's maester while Elia and her children were being murdered and don't forget Dayne was hiding in a completely different region while it happened. 

Not to mention Jaime actually made a move to stop it only to be dissuaded by Dayne and Selmy themselves.

[The Wolves]

32 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

Your heroes Dayne and Selmy also stood by and did nothing all through Aerys reign of terror, and unlike Jaime they weren't 16 year old boys. 

Don't forget Barristan laid in bed getting nursed by Robert Baratheon's maester while Elia and her children were being murdered and don't forget Dayne was hiding in a completely different region while it happened. 

They're not my heroes and I'm not a absolving them of their blame on standing by and doing nothing during Aerys reign just like Jaime 16yr old boy or not. 

And Barristen had been injured on the Trident he walked into KL after Elia and her children died just like Dayne was under the impression that they were being protected by the city walls and a KG member. 

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, redtree said:

I'll need a quote on that because that is a blatant character defamation, he had no idea that his father sent Gregor and Amory Lorch to massacre and rape Elia and her children. He was in the throne room when Elia and her children got attacked, still considering whom to crown, Viserys or baby Aegon so clearly he had no idea about Tywin's plan let alone smiling knowing that they did what they did. Jaime can't be in two place at once so this is just not right

Dayne knew that Rhaegar had died and unless he's more stupid than Aerys then he also had figured out that Aerys, his own king, the one he sworn and vowed to protect, Queen Rhaella, prince Viserys, princess Elia, baby Aegon and little Rhaenys were in grave danger but he did nothing, just hanging out at a tower

Jaimes job is to protect the royal family. After murdering Aerys to save the city he should have went to Aegon and Rhaenys because a sack was going on and they needed protecting. 

 

[The Wolves]

18 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Not to mention Jaime actually made a move to stop it only to be dissuaded by Dayne and Selmy themselves.

Jaime bitched out you mean something he's been doing his whole life. 

[HairGrowsBack]

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

Jaime bitched out you mean something he's been doing his whole life. 

Dude I know you have a serious hate-boner for him but there's no need to twist things for that. He was distressed by Rhaella's plea and wanted to make it stop, but the other KG told him he couldn't prevent the King from doing what he likes, including raping and beating the Queen. That's it, end of story. You have every right to hate him for all the actual bad things he's done, you don't need to make up more.

[The Wolves]

15 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Dude I know you have a serious hate-boner for him but there's no need to twist things for that. He was distressed by Rhaella's plea and wanted to make it stop, but the other KG told him he couldn't prevent the King from doing what he likes, including raping and beating the Queen. That's it, end of story. You have every right to hate him for all the actual bad things he's done, you don't need to make up more.

But it's okay for Jaime to stand by and hear a woman being raped and not do anything just because someone told him that it was the King's right? Yet the Other KG gets condemned for doing nothing? 

So Jaime can stop the man he's sworn to protect from burning a city but he can't stop the same man from raping his wife? Nobody is making anything up, Jaime actually did bitch out where Rhaella was concerned but that's okay because he killed Aerys and stopped him from burning the city? Right? 

[HairGrowsBack]

11 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

But it's okay for Jaime to stand by and hear a woman being raped and not do anything just because someone told him that it was the King's right? Yet the Other KG gets condemned for doing nothing? 

So Jaime can stop the man he's sworn to protect from burning a city but he can't stop the same man from raping his wife? Nobody is making anything up, Jaime actually did bitch out where Rhaella was concerned but that's okay because he killed Aerys and stopped him from burning the city? Right? 

It was not okay, but it shows that, in that particular instance, he had more honour than Dayne and Selmy. His not doing anything after being told by his elders not to was keeping his vows, but when it escaladed and it was about the lives of millions of people, he decided to do what was right and broke his oath. It's not complicated. It's a matter of degree of tolerance : burning KL to the ground was the straw that breaks the camel's back.

I have no idea what you mean by bitch out ? All he does is remember how much she suffered and regret he didn't intervene then. You know, kind of like how most human beings would react.