Jaime Lannister, a hypocrite and criminal?

[The Wolves]

3 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

It was not okay, but it shows that, in that particular instance, he had more honour than Dayne and Selmy. His not doing anything after being told by his elders not to was keeping his vows, but when it escaladed and it was about the lives of millions of people, he decided to do what was right and broke his oath. It's not complicated. It's a matter of degree of tolerance : burning KL to the ground was the straw that breaks the camel's back.

I have no idea what you mean by bitch out ? All he does is remember how much she suffered and regret he didn't intervene then. You know, kind of like how most human beings would react.

Jaime joined the KG to commit treason I don't think he ever had honor certainly not more then Dayne or Selmy. 

[Winter's Cold]

Jaime Lannister might be the worst Kingsguard in Westerosi history.

He certainly falls short in comparison to his fellow Kingsguard members during both Aerys' reign (failed to protect Princess Elia and her children) and Robert's reign (cuckolded the King).

Let's examine the actions of his fellow Kingsguard members during Robert's Rebellion.

Jonothor Darry - died defending his prince Rhaegar at the Trident

Lewyn Martell - died defending his prince Rhaegar at the Trident

Barristan Selmy - was injured defending his prince Rhaegar at the Trident,subsequently surrendered to Robert

Arthur Dayne - died defending Rhaegar and Lyanna's child at the Tower of Joy

Gerold Hightower - died defending Rhaegar and Lyanna's child at the Tower of Joy

Oswell Whent - died defending Rhaegar and Lyanna's child at the Tower of Joy

All the other Kingsguard members protected the royal family and all but Barristan Selmy actually died for them.

Jaime meanwhile kills Aerys Targaryen and fails to defend princess consort Elia Martell, prince Aegon and princess Rhaenys.

His defense is that Aerys Targaryen intended to burn King's Landing and he killed him to save  lives. This is certainly valid.

However, why does he decide to sit on the Iron Throne while the city is being sacked? Also was it truly necessary to kill Aerys Targaryen when he had already killed the pyromancers, the only ones capable of carrying out this order? Why not simply detain him instead?

 

 

[HairGrowsBack]

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

Jaime joined the KG to commit treason I don't think he ever had honor certainly not more then Dayne or Selmy. 

He did join the KG mostly to be with Cersei, but he also had a very romantic notion of chivalry at the time ; it's not an either or situation. He used to have honour, lost it along the way, and since ASOS begins to try and regain it.

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Not to mention Jaime actually made a move to stop it only to be dissuaded by Dayne and Selmy themselves.

Darry, not Dayne and Selmy

[HairGrowsBack]

1 minute ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Darry, not Dayne and Selmy

Oops, bad memory. Thanks for the correction.

[HexMachina]

Oh I'm just being pedantic, don't mind me.,

[redtree]

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

Jaimes job is to protect the royal family. After murdering Aerys to save the city he should have went to Aegon and Rhaenys because a sack was going on and they needed protecting. 

Baby Aegon, Rhaenys and Elia were in Maegor's holdfast. Do you think Jaime was the only swordsman in Red Keep ? Off course not

Jaime himself admitted to death Rhaegar, (who stupidly put the most junior member in charge of KL and Red Keep's safety and put no guard who have knowledge about RK's underground tunnel as a plan B to save his wife and children) that he had no idea. I haven't read about any character who's not surprised or disgusted by Clegane+Lorch's action so his action made sense. Again he had no idea that Tywin ordered the children's death, hell even Tywin himself was surprised that it ended up with Elia's death and the brutal manner of the prince and princess. Jaime certainly wasn't smiling knowing what was happening like the false fact you twisted

[SeanF]

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 10:50 AM, King Ned Stark said:

Many readers seemed to be invested in Jaime's redemption arc, and all in all, he seems to be a very popular character within the SoIaF series.  Very well-liked.  So this topic may very well be controversial, and I may be in the minority here, as I never liked the character from the beginning, or even after multiple re-reads.  However, I will attempt to approach this subject in an unbiased and logical manner.

I'll preface things by saying I care not for his witticisms, his good looks, or his general badassery.  Mainly because I was introduced to the character in 1997 and my oldest child was less than a year old, and immediately in GoT he throws a seven year old boy out of a tower window.  So, admittedly, my opinion was skewed from then on.  As for his so-called redemption, I'm still waiting, so far I've seen nothing remotely close.  I feel his redemption, if in fact there is one, is either; a retcon, poor writing, or complete sleight of hand by the author.

Sorry for the lengthy disclaimer, on to my questions/proclomomations.  I feel, through five books, that Jaime is a criminal of nearly the highest order, by virtually any societies standards, and a hypocrite to boot.  However, let's progress under Westerosi standards.

1. Jaime is introduced as an oathbreaker (killing his king), complicit in high treason, having an incestuous relationship, breaking guestright, and a willful murder of children. Essentially, he defiled the gods, the faith, and the laws of Westeros very early on.

2. I may be wrong on this, but iirc, Jaime thinks to himself that he would've maimed Arya if he'd been the first to find her.  Again, with the children.

3. He has three men murdered, to chasten Ned (by the way, does anyone have a bigger Ned complex than Jaime?).

4. He swears to Cat that he will not take up arms against Stark or Tully, and with his release will return her daughters (albeit at swordpoint) but on his way to Kingslanding, he understands that Roose means to betray Robb, and gives one of his flippant remarks, thus breaking his oath to Cat (because he had to agree to absolve Roose of blame for hand to Tywin to be freed).  Then upon arrival at KL, he knowingly allows some girl (Jeyne) to be taken by the Boltons knowing full well that it is kidnapping and coercion (this shows his true character, despite his dialogue to Cat and Brienne that you can't follow all the vows, he could follow a very important knights vow right then with minimal to no consequence, but he lets her be taken).

5. Then he DOES take up arms against Stark and Tully by breaking the siege of Riverrun (by threatening to murder women and children, it's poignant to me that the first thing the Blackfish asks is he has he returned to resume his captivity).

He also lied to his little brother and had a child gang-raped to appease his father.  It's almost ironic that he tried to murder one child and maim another of a man who risked his life for Jaime's own children.

In summation, my bias aside, is Jaime a hypocrite and a criminal?

 

 

Well, nobody's perfect.

[Protagoras]

To quote myself from another thread

Jaime is a menace. A snake that should be trampled down as quick as possible.

He did indeed commit a bad act to kill the man he swore to protect, but that is not really the problem (well it is, but there is an even worse one). The main problem is that he tries to justify this - that he should be allowed to place himself over his society and break the social contacts of vows whenever he feels like it, because he found his oaths troublesome. Well guess what Jaime - maybe you shouldn´t have sworn so many vows in the first place!

I do however think Jaime lies here. Despite that he has multiple oaths, Jaime doesn't really think its hard to keep all promises (since he is later able to realize that different oaths have different priorities), but he somehow insists that he should decide the intent of said wows as well as the importance of them. He want to (like Jon Snow - which I have already discussed before in another thread) do "the right thing" without suffering for it and that is frankly absurd, not only because "the right thing is subjective in the first place, but also since he simply have no right enforcing his personal morality on everyone else. The rules exist for a reason, but for Jaime everything is right as long as it serves his desires.

Also note - this is not a one-thing only either. Later Jaime starts to justify his own swiny behaviour and repeats the same offence with Tommen.

"If Tommen wants you to saddle his horse, obey him. If he tells you to kill his horse, come to me"

Ok Jaime. So what gives you this right and when? Say Tommen wants to raise the taxes - should you be allowed to stop him then? Should others? No? Well, they you need to motivate in an objective way why certain interventions are needed and some are not and since nothing IS objective we will only hear you bullshit opinion. And again - why should you be able to do this?

So, after the loss of his hand and his so called "redemption" he tries to put up rules on if and how the white swords should obey their king and proves that he regrets nothing. He revels in the behaviour that made him despicable in the first place. Its like the robber who starts to argue that his robbing was justified and more people should start rob each other. This quote really tells everything you need to know about Jaime. When you decide to take a job you give up your right to complain about the tasks that you are supposed to perform or at the bare minimum, do them under protest. If you don´t like to perform abortions you should not work in a place where this is required nor can you expect it to consider your conscience. If you are a pacifist, then don´t join the army. Simple stuff - unless you are Jaime. In addition, he refuses to understand that his oath is one-sided (and should be). Aerys cannot "fail his kingsguard" since he decides what constitutes a fail nor does it matter if Jaime considers Aerys his king, since by accepting the title he made an implied consent towards that idea. Yet, Jaime dreams like Sansa about true knights and fail to understand that life is not a fairy-tale. He needed (and still needs) to "grow up".

Unfortunately, I know people in real life who see the quote above as a reason why Jaime is an excellent kingsguard and I am baffled by that opinion, which I find very stupid. "Defending you from yourself" is nothing but moralizing bullshit disguised as a "favor" but only serves the purpose of the so called "helper". If you want to help me, well then - do what I want you to do! Obedience is the main trait in a bodyguard. In addition, the entire behaviour stinks of disrespect - if you promise me that you will go and have a beer with me but fail to show up and then say "Well, but I had some other duties too - I should be allowed to change my mind" I will be pissed. You DO NOT have the right to change your mind without suffering consequences from your previous choice. Yet some people, like Jaime, only care about themselves. 

In addition, I see no problem with punishing someone for an act you believe are righteous, because it breaks societal rules and Jaime really needs to be put down. The kingsguard job is to follow the king (hence the name) and if you are not willing to do that (regardless of the acts and the king) you are not suitable for the job (or any job that relies on your loyalty).

[Tianzi]

Disgracing his stand or not, Jaime killing Aerys might be the single most useful act anyone commited in this story.

[Lion of the West]

Jaime has in the past certainly been a poor Kingsguard but also a tremendous knight, at the same time because things are complicated with Westeros as well as in reality. As a Kingsguard Jaime strikes the lowest in killing his king, but as a knight Jaime was up there with Dunk breaking a tooth on Aerion or Baelor takings sides for a lone hedge knight against his own brother. its a complicated mix with both good and bad.

But personally i think that the most interesting fact with Jaime is that he is a man who lost his way and is getting back and seek to make himself a better man while at the same time being more honest with himself than most people would be. This does not mean that he is always honest or that there are no others honest with themselves, only that relative to others Jaime is an honest person who acts according to what he believes no matter if its seeking honor or indulging in nihilism. A combination of honesty alongside a drive to rise upwards and make himself a better person, despite his world having already condemned him, makes him for a very fascinating character which I for one just can't but hope for an wish to read more about and that maybe, just and perhaps maybe, there will be some light in the end of Jaime's tunnel.

And of course its an interesting difference between Jaime and most other Kingsguard in that Jaime does not believe in blind obedience at every turn. So far this has mostly turned out to Jaime's personal loss but it certainly elevates him above many other Kingsguards. On another level of course Jaime has chosen the Kingsguard before his House and in so, in particular with saving Tyrion, done untold damage to that very House. That's another layer on the complex character that is Jaime. And while it lead to his own father dying I can't blame anyone for loving his sibling and wishing to save them from harm.

So to summerize Jaime is very complex and his actions often essentially backfire on him when he tries to do the right thing. But such is the nature of the world, and what fate has in store for Jaime will be very interesting to see.

[Boarsbane]

8 hours ago, HairGrowsBack said:

It was not okay, but it shows that, in that particular instance, he had more honour than Dayne and Selmy. His not doing anything after being told by his elders not to was keeping his vows, but when it escaladed and it was about the lives of millions of people, he decided to do what was right and broke his oath. It's not complicated. It's a matter of degree of tolerance : burning KL to the ground was the straw that breaks the camel's back.

I have no idea what you mean by bitch out ? All he does is remember how much she suffered and regret he didn't intervene then. You know, kind of like how most human beings would react.

I agree. Also people should remember that Aerys KG would of been heroes to Jaime, if Jaime sees six of the men he admires most doing nothing while Aerys burns people and rapes his wife do they really expect this 16 year old boy to just immediately defy them? Rhaelle getting raped by Aerys is terrible, so is Rickard and Brandon getting murdered but does anyone seriously believe any KG would allow Jaime to kill Aerys, and if Aerys were somehow killed that any other KG would let Jaime live.

[Lady bonehead]

7 hours ago, redtree said:

Baby Aegon, Rhaenys and Elia were in Maegor's holdfast. Do you think Jaime was the only swordsman in Red Keep ? Off course not

Jaime himself admitted to death Rhaegar, (who stupidly put the most junior member in charge of KL and Red Keep's safety and put no guard who have knowledge about RK's underground tunnel as a plan B to save his wife and children) that he had no idea. I haven't read about any character who's not surprised or disgusted by Clegane+Lorch's action so his action made sense. Again he had no idea that Tywin ordered the children's death, hell even Tywin himself was surprised that it ended up with Elia's death and the brutal manner of the prince and princess. Jaime certainly wasn't smiling knowing what was happening like the false fact you twisted

I agree, Jaime thought that Elia and the kids were sufficiently protected.  They only died because Tywin made their deaths a special priority, and sent a crack team to scale the walls of the holdfast.

But Jaime also never thought Tywin would kill them, as he said to Rhaegar in the dream.  Was this naive?  Not entirely.  After he killed Aerys, Jaime considered declaring Aegon King, with Tywin as regent.  My belief is that this is what Jaime thought Tywin would want, that this was the best outcome for the Lannisters.  Pure power politics, except Tywin decided his best move was to support Robert instead.

[Lady bonehead]

Regarding Riverrun: Jaime actually thinks this one through quite clearly in AFFC and determines that his oath to the king supersedes his oath to Catelyn.  The king has ordered him to break the siege by all means possible, but if he can do so with minimal bloodshed that's obviously more honorable, not to mention better for everybody all around from a practical standpoint.

[Nevets]

9 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Also note - this is not a one-thing only either. Later Jaime starts to justify his own swiny behaviour and repeats the same offence with Tommen.

"If Tommen wants you to saddle his horse, obey him. If he tells you to kill his horse, come to me"

Ok Jaime. So what gives you this right and when? Say Tommen wants to raise the taxes - should you be allowed to stop him then? Should others? No? Well, they you need to motivate in an objective way why certain interventions are needed and some are not and since nothing IS objective we will only hear you bullshit opinion. And again - why should you be able to do this?

Um, you do realize that Tommen is 9 years old and has a regent?  He has zero authority to raise taxes or do much of anything else.  Jaime is reminding the other Kingsguard that Tommen is a child with no authority of his own and that they are not bound to obey him if he requests something unreasonable.  Like Joffrey frequently did, despite also being underage.

[Lord Estermont]

It is very easy to judge someone in our current social and political state. Jaime is a criminal by law, though ethically hes no better or worse than ourselves. He lives in medieval age with no political or economical stability. Hes a knight , which means he s had to kill many people in someones name whether innocent or not. The only thing that keeps him from being a peasant is his name, peasants lived awfull lives, so far hes done pretty good maintaining the dominion of his house.Being honorable didnt grant you anything back at those periods , its a social value created for feeling superior to others without it, most people like the Starks for their being "good" and "honorable", since they lacked in wealth they had to had another value. In my books, Jaime has survived just fine. More than Ned has to say. Living at such a unstable world , we should judge him by that age's objective criteria, sadly the only ones i can find is alive or dead , high born or low born and rich or poor.Whoever lives at the end is the victor of the game of thrones, the ultimate title.You judge him wrong with your modern criteria, hence your remarks/questions are pointless.  

[Light a wight tonight]

On 6/2/2016 at 9:57 AM, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Anyone who is not a completely blind Jaime fan should realize that some things Jaime did were actually really evil.  Like Bran, Neds men, and saying he would have murdered Arya.  There's a similar litmus test for Dany, which is whether you accept that torturing the wine sellers daughters was evil.

but in the case of both characters (and others as well) I personally prefer to look at the whole to make a judgement.  For me, that judgement is that both characters are heros, who have also made mistakes, and done some actually evil things.  

I think Jaime was a decent person as a kid.  He was horrified by the stuff he saw in KG.  Pretty much the worst thing he did was have sex with Cersei which is squicky but I Don't consider immoral.  He's a hero for killing Aerys.   

He became cynical and jaded in Roberts court. Doesn't excuse what he chose to do at all but that's why he did it.  He decided if even the KG had no honor then well it would just be "us vs them" morality.  He buried any qualms he'd have.  

Losing his hand taught him some humility.  Brienne taught him that decent people still exist.  Now he's struggling with both of his old selves.  And j think his mental process (compare early asos to late AFFC) clearly shows the way he's going.  

 

His disillusionment began at Aerys's court, where he was told by his superiors, including Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy that he should ignore Aerys's behavior, including his sexual assaults of Rhaella. 

[Lady bonehead]

Regarding Bran: OF COURSE pushing a kid out a window because he caught you screwing your sister is morally reprehensible...unless you are a Lannister and have been taught since childhood that anything is justifiable if it helps the Lannisters.  Cersei buys into this world view 100 percent.  Jaime doesn't entirely even at his low point but at this stage his prime directive is taking care of Cersei (why is a different question but suffice it to say that it's not just about getting laid).

[Protagoras]

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

Um, you do realize that Tommen is 9 years old and has a regent?  He has zero authority to raise taxes or do much of anything else.  Jaime is reminding the other Kingsguard that Tommen is a child with no authority of his own and that they are not bound to obey him if he requests something unreasonable.  Like Joffrey frequently did, despite also being underage.

And that is why Jaime is unsuitable for his job, in addition to other reasons. It is not up to him to judge if the king is too young, have authority or if a request is unsuitable. Jaimes job is to obey, if not Tommen, then the regent and the small council. He is in no position to instruct his fellow kingsguard members to go to him, at best they should check with the regent first. At worst, Jaime is undermining the government - as he did with Aerys - while at the same time taking oaths to protect named goverment.

Jaime need to understand that his personal morality is not worth squat - he has no authority here and he has given up the right to act according to his morals when he took the cloak. He is a glorified bodyguard who should obey, regardless if he fins the request morally wrong.

[Boarsbane]

7 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

And that is why Jaime is unsuitable for his job, in addition to other reasons. It is not up to him to judge if the king is too young, have authority or if a request is unsuitable. Jaimes job is to obey, if not Tommen, then the regent and the small council. He is in no position to instruct his fellow kingsguard members to go to him, at best they should check with the regent first. At worst, Jaime is undermining the government - as he did with Aerys - while at the same time taking oaths to protect named goverment.

Jaime need to understand that his personal morality is not worth squat - he has no authority here and he has given up the right to act according to his morals when he took the cloak. He is a glorified bodyguard who should obey, regardless if he fins the request morally wrong.

He's their lord commander, how is it not his place to give them orders? He's obviously learned how dangerous it is to indulge a child king everything he desires, and despite his position he is still Tommen's father and surely doesn't want him to turn out like Joffrey, their is nothing scummy about taking steps to prevent that. The LC of the Kingsguard is more than just a glorified bodyguard.