2016 NBA FINALS - Runnin' it Back

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

3 minutes ago, briantw said:

A flagrant is just as meaningless after the fact unless, like Green, you've already accumulated so many points that it causes an instant suspension.  A flagrant assessed to LeBron, though, would have been just as meaningless since he's nowhere near a suspension.  

No, it stays for the remainder of the series. Not that I think that LeBron is likely to accumulate enough to warrant a suspension, but it does serve as a warning that has potential consequence. The technical after the fact has zero consequence, therefore it is meaningless. Whether it's assessed or not is pointless.

[James Arryn]

5 hours ago, StefCurry said:

Off-topic. Any news about Derozan's contract? What do you think, does his way to play remind you of Kobe Bryant?  Maybe he should try to play in Lakers?

He's similar in terms of he's an offensive-minded grinder who relies on mid-range shots and getting to the line, but otherwise there's a huge difference in talent level and bringing anything else to the table. I mean, late Kobe probably couldn't play much D anyways, but early Kobe did and prime Kobe could when he felt like it...DD just doesn't have great lateral quickness or reaction time; his (overrated) athleticism is almost entirely linear. When he's not initiating, he can be surprisingly stiff. He's not very good at creating for others, and while he's improved as a rebounder it's nothing special.

He's a hard worker, he's not a diva, he's a non-problem guy and he seems liked by teammates, and he's probably gotten as much out his ability as he could have, but his post-season woes will likely be the norm because come the playoffs, everyone is working their butt off, which loses him the one advantage he normally has, and he's more susceptible to concentrated scouting because of his game limitations.   

He'll get paid...but I think the Raps are probably going to regret it. Not that he'll fall off the table once he gets the money, he's not that guy...just that locking up a lot of your cap on him will harden your ceiling pretty low, this post-season run notwithstanding. 

[James Arryn]

18 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

No, it stays for the remainder of the series. Not that I think that LeBron is likely to accumulate enough to warrant a suspension, but it does serve as a warning that has potential consequence. The technical after the fact has zero consequence, therefore it is meaningless. Whether it's assessed or not is pointless.

It really wasn't what a flagrant foul is, though. There's no risk of injury or intent to harm, and while contact with balls might be unpleasant, it's not particularly violent. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

It really wasn't what a flagrant foul is, though. There's no risk of injury or intent to harm, and while contact with balls might be unpleasant, it's not particularly violent. 

Yeah, I suppose you guys are right on that count. I don't know. I suppose the NBA could use some sort of inciting rule, similar to that of the NHL.

[briantw]

47 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

No, it stays for the remainder of the series. Not that I think that LeBron is likely to accumulate enough to warrant a suspension, but it does serve as a warning that has potential consequence. The technical after the fact has zero consequence, therefore it is meaningless. Whether it's assessed or not is pointless.

Pretty sure technical fouls stay for the remainder of the series as well, and count toward your point accumulation to a suspension.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, briantw said:

Pretty sure technical fouls stay for the remainder of the series as well, and count toward your point accumulation to a suspension.

Ah, I stand corrected. Technicals accumulate as well. Point taken. I'm done bitching about it. Onto Game 6, fer chrissakes.

I'm hoping for a classic tonight. Both LeBron and Irving seem to be in top form. I'm just hoping Curry and Thompson can answer in kind. 

[Maithanet]

12 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I'm hoping for a classic tonight. Both LeBron and Irving seem to be in top form. I'm just hoping Curry and Thompson can answer in kind. 

The issue is that Curry and Thompson have to do it against a far inferior defense than Lebron and Irving.  The refs are allowing a ton of contact, which might explain why Curry has looked so uncomfortable.  But still, the challenge of getting open on Irving, Schumpert, Delly and JR Smith is nowhere near the challenge of getting open on Thompson/Livingston (Irving) or Iguodala/Green (Lebron). 

Which is like the shorthand for why the Warriors are going to win this series.  Because they have such a talented team that even if their stars play so-so, they can still win.  Whereas it is virtually impossible to imagine the Cavs winning even one game if Lebron fails to show up.  

I'm hoping for a close game tonight, and that the Cavs can force a game seven.  But I expect that the Warriors will once again be celebrating a championship in Cleveland. 

[briantw]

It'll be interesting to see who ends up with Finals MVP if the Warriors win the series, because you can make a pretty compelling argument that the two best players in the series have been LeBron and Kyrie.  

[Maithanet]

4 minutes ago, briantw said:

It'll be interesting to see who ends up with Finals MVP if the Warriors win the series, because you can make a pretty compelling argument that the two best players in the series have been LeBron and Kyrie.  

Only if you're only looking at offense.  Kyrie is playing better defense than normal for him, but it is still pretty poor.  Thus far I'd give Thompson the MVP, he's scoring 20 points/game, 56% effective shooting percentage, and has been playing great defense all series. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

10 minutes ago, briantw said:

It'll be interesting to see who ends up with Finals MVP if the Warriors win the series, because you can make a pretty compelling argument that the two best players in the series have been LeBron and Kyrie.  

For the 2 wins maybe. Kyrie has been pretty bi-polar offensively and he's always a liability on the defensive end. He was absolutely huge in Game 5, but that performance was an outlier. I can see making an argument for LeBron, but they have to win Game 6 for him to even enter into the conversation. Right now I'd say it's Klay Thompson, with Green entering the conversation if the Warriors win tonight on the back of a great defensive effort from him.

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 I can see making an argument for LeBron, but they have to win Game 6 for him to even enter into the conversation. 

Lol, you are such a hater. There is NO QUESTION that the best player in this series has been LeBron, and that he is the most valuable player of this series. Without him Cavs wouldnt be sniffing the finals, let alone getting a chance to take it to game 7.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Dont have time to look it up right now, but am curious how many times, if ever, we've had a finals MVP from the losing team?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

13 minutes ago, Relic said:

Lol, you are such a hater. There is NO QUESTION that the best player in this series has been LeBron, and that he is the most valuable player of this series. Without him Cavs wouldnt be sniffing the finals, let alone getting a chance to take it to game 7.

Guilty as charged, BUT

Numero One-o) Even sniffing the Finals doesn't enter into it. The Finals MVP is determined in the Finals, no? What happened prior doesn't figure in.

Numero-Two-o) I don't feel like his effort here has been all that remarkable. He was aces in Game 5, and in Game 3, and for 3 quarters of Game 4. In order to be in the conversation for Finals MVP while on the losing end requires an inhuman performance. Had they gotten to a Game 7 last season, I think he probably gets it, but I don't feel that he's been nearly as impressive in this series.

[aeu]

14 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Dont have time to look it up right now, but am curious how many times, if ever, we've had a finals MVP from the losing team?

 

This came up last year when Lebron was even better than this year (and had much less support).

I seem to remember people saying it happened once (Jerry West?) but it is definitely not common.  Given that Lebron didn't get it last year, I don't think there is any way he gets it this year if they lose.

 

[Maithanet]

7 minutes ago, aeu said:

 

This came up last year when Lebron was even better than this year (and had much less support).

I seem to remember people saying it happened once (Jerry West?) but it is definitely not common.  Given that Lebron didn't get it last year, I don't think there is any way he gets it this year if they lose.

Yeah, I was just about to say that (and yes, it was Jerry West).  Lebron has been very good in the Finals, but undeniably worse than he was last year.  His performance in the 2015 Finals was truly magnificent.  There is no way whatsoever that Lebron wins the Finals MVP this year without outplaying himself from last year, and he hasn't. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 And I don't see how he even enters into the conversation if they lose Game 6 at home once again. Last season, absolutely, as he drug that team kicking and screaming into that game. This series? Not so much.

[briantw]

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

For the 2 wins maybe. Kyrie has been pretty bi-polar offensively and he's always a liability on the defensive end. He was absolutely huge in Game 5, but that performance was an outlier. I can see making an argument for LeBron, but they have to win Game 6 for him to even enter into the conversation. Right now I'd say it's Klay Thompson, with Green entering the conversation if the Warriors win tonight on the back of a great defensive effort from him.

I don't know if I'd call Kyrie bipolar on offense.  He's leading the Finals in points per game, shooting over 40% from three, almost 49% from the field overall, and averaging 4.6 assists and 2.4 steals.  He's handily outplayed Curry and has scored 25 or more points in every game except game two, and the entire Cavs team was awful in game two.  He didn't shoot all that well in game one, but he did get to the line twelve times and hit eleven of them.

I also think it's not totally accurate to call his game five performance an outlier.  Yeah, he's probably not going to shoot 70% again, but he scored thirty or more points in games three and four too and shot 48 and 50% from the field in those two games.

[James Arryn]

28 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Yeah, I was just about to say that (and yes, it was Jerry West).  Lebron has been very good in the Finals, but undeniably worse than he was last year.  His performance in the 2015 Finals was truly magnificent.  There is no way whatsoever that Lebron wins the Finals MVP this year without outplaying himself from last year, and he hasn't. 

The comparison to last year is only applicable if there are other candidates outperforming him this year. If he was 10 last year and 8 this, but last year there were other 9's and this year only 6's, he still qualifies IMO...and so far that's true. No Dub is really standing out. That said, he's only really had one great game, and Irving matched it. If Irving outplays him tonight, maybe he's the guy.

I think Curry goes off tonight, though.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, briantw said:

It'll be interesting to see who ends up with Finals MVP if the Warriors win the series, because you can make a pretty compelling argument that the two best players in the series have been LeBron and Kyrie.  

Imo the two most compelling scenarios are the Warriors win tonight and Green is named the MVP or the Cavs win both games and James gets it. The former would just be too funny, and the latter would have the nice symbolism of the King reclaiming is throne on Curry's court. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

The issue is that Curry and Thompson have to do it against a far inferior defense than Lebron and Irving.  The refs are allowing a ton of contact, which might explain why Curry has looked so uncomfortable.  But still, the challenge of getting open on Irving, Schumpert, Delly and JR Smith is nowhere near the challenge of getting open on Thompson/Livingston (Irving) or Iguodala/Green (Lebron). 

The first two games were called more like the rest of the playoffs had been, and the Warriors flourished. The last three have been very physical games, and to the refs' credit, they're calling it the same both ways. But that style of play benefits that Cavs a lot more than the Warriors. That's probably why the old timers all think they could handle this team.