The catspaw was hired by . . . Old Nan!

[Seams]

Olenna = Ole' Nan?

This is so crackpot I thought I better put it on my own thread.

I was reading a new discussion about which Tyrells might have known about the plot to poison King Joffrey. There is a fair amount of consensus, of course, around Olenna. But still some argument about how petite she is, and whether she would have been physically able to put poison in Joffrey's wine, which was in a tall goblet. The point was that she would have had help of some kind from a taller person to complete delivery of the poison.

Which caused me to wonder whether the term "catspaw" would apply to the situation. Which made me think of the attempt to murder Bran, and whether the author wanted us to compare the successful murder of Joffrey to the unsuccessful attempt on Bran.

And suddenly I realized that the tiny, grandmotherly Olenna might be a deliberate counterpart of the tiny, grandmotherly Old Nan. The names sound like wordplay.

Wouldn't it be an amazing twist if Old Nan had hired the catspaw to try to kill Bran?

What are the other similarities between the Joffrey murder and the Bran attempted murder?

• Books are destroyed immediately prior to the death / attempted death (symbolic death) of the boy.
• Tyrion Lannister is immediately suspected of being the murderer. In both cases, he is not the murderer.
• Both of Tyrion's trials are resolved by Trial by Combat.
• Joffrey is Cersei and Jaime's son; Cersei and Jaime attempted to kill Bran. The things I do for love!
• Joffrey wants Tyrion to ride in the dwarf mummers' jousting act. Bran wanted to be a knight. Tyrion later rides in the mummers' jousting act. Tyrion designs a saddle so Bran can ride.

But I need more evidence linking Old Nan and Olenna, if this is going to make any sense at all. I can't say I have a whole lot. Here are some random thoughts:

Both women are crone figures. Crones are supposed to be able to look through the door that separates life and death, and people pray to them for wisdom.

Ravens are able to fly through the door between life and death, and the Crone of the Seven let the first raven into the world. I can't think of a bird association for Old Nan, but there are tons of them for Olenna. Including, when Olenna meets with Sansa to talk about Joffrey, she tells a story of her husband dying in a hunting accident while pursuing a falcon. (The falcon is part of the sigil of Jon Arryn, and Ned dies pursuing some information Jon had been hunting. About Joffrey's paternity . . . )

Crones are often found in the company of fools. (I also think Mormont's raven is the equivalent of a fool, which may tell us a few things about both fools and ravens in the books.) Olenna has Butterbumps and Old Nan has Hodor. Fools are not necessarily foolish in ASOIAF, of course, but speak truths that very few people understand. There is some speculation that Butterbumps put the poison in Joffrey's wine on behalf of Olenna. Maybe Hodor performed the same service by proxy - he was not the literal catspaw, but the unknown stableboy was and Hodor is also a stableboy.

The Winterfell catspaw is thought to have hidden in the stables, where Old Nan's great-grandson Hodor works. There are creepy stableboys who leer at Sansa, and Arya's first murder is of the stableboy at King's Landing who tries to stop her after her escape from her needle work / water dancing lesson. I can't come up with a stable boy at Joffrey's wedding feast, but maybe there is wordplay around stables and tables? This might explain why Bran rides a horse into the dining hall at Winterfell when he presides as the Prince at the feast - conflating tables and stables. (In the Dunk & Egg stories, Dunk thinks Egg is a stableboy when he first meets him, and Egg plays along. For what it's worth.)

A couple of quotes about Old Nan that might reveal something:

She was a very ugly old woman, Bran thought spitefully; shrunken and wrinkled, almost blind, too weak to climb stairs, with only a few wisps of white hair left to cover a mottled pink scalp. No one really knew how old she was, but his father said she'd been called Old Nan even when he was a boy. She was the oldest person in Winterfell for certain, maybe the oldest person in the Seven Kingdoms. Nan had come to the castle as a wet nurse for a Brandon Stark whose mother had died birthing him. He had been an older brother of Lord Rickard, Bran's grandfather, or perhaps a younger brother, or a brother to Lord Rickard's father. Sometimes Old Nan told it one way and sometimes another. In all the stories the little boy died at three of a summer chill, but Old Nan stayed on at Winterfell with her own children. She had lost both her sons to the war when King Robert won the throne, and her grandson was killed on the walls of Pyke during Balon Greyjoy's rebellion. Her daughters had long ago married and moved away and died. All that was left of her own blood was Hodor, the simpleminded giant who worked in the stables, but Old Nan just lived on and on, doing her needlework and telling her stories. (AGoT, Bran IV)

I already mentioned that I see wet nurses as part of the "flow" motif that is the mirror image of the "wolf" motif. I thought wolf and flow were supposed to balance each other but, if Old Nan wanted to kill Bran, maybe they really are opposites.

I suspect Old Nan is a Frey (although another recent thread made a good case for an Umber connection). Hodor's real name is Walder, and Nan says "mayhaps" at one point. Given the relationship between Freys and Starks, it would not surprise me if she had a resentment against the Stark family. Notice that another Stark child died, possibly under her care . . . People have theorized that "doing needlework" is a euphemism for killing people and Arya, who is famous for her sword-related needlework, calls herself Nan at one point on her path to become a killer. She says it's short for Nymeria, which is the name of a princess who is sort of a queen. The Queen of Thorns is sort of a queen . . .

Thousands and thousands of years ago, Brandon the Builder had raised Winterfell, and some said the Wall. Bran knew the story, but it had never been his favorite. Maybe one of the other Brandons had liked that story. Sometimes Nan would talk to him as if he were her Brandon, the baby she had nursed all those years ago, and sometimes she confused him with his uncle Brandon, who was killed by the Mad King before Bran was even born. She had lived so long, Mother had told him once, that all the Brandon Starks had become one person in her head. (AGoT, Bran IV)

So here's a convoluted connection: Petyr Baelish. Olenna was thought to have collaborated with Petyr Baelish in the killing of King Joffrey, who is sort of "Mad King, Jr." Petyr Baelish lost a swordfighting duel with Bran's uncle, Brandon Stark. Petyr is thought to have provided the knife that was used in the unsuccessful attempt on Bran's life. If "all Brandon Starks" are "one person" does Littlefinger desire to kill all Brandon Starks? Does Old Nan? The Mad King (Aerys) succeeded in killing uncle Brandon Stark shortly after Littlefinger failed in his duel over Catelyn's hand in marriage. The attempt on (current) Bran Stark's life fails, much like the duel with uncle Brandon, but Catelyn's literal hand - not her symbolic hand in marriage - is virtually destroyed. Catelyn later dies at a marriage - a Frey marriage.

I've wondered if there is a deliberate wordplay connection between Bael the Bard, who famously spent time in the Winterfell crypt making a connection with Stark heirs, and Petyr Baelish, who also messes with Stark heirs. Hodor spends time in the Winterfell crypt.

I also suspect that Petyr Baelish may have dragon eggs that he obtained from the dwarf mummers who performed at the wedding just before Joffrey was killed. Aerys wanted to help fulfill the prophecy about the dragon having three heads. Is Petyr Baelish supposed to be compared to Aerys?

Maybe Old Nan and Olenna are Littlefinger's catspaws?

I know that GRRM's use of symbols is sometimes not direct - I know that Olenna can be compared to Cersei, in some ways, so she is not entirely or only compared to Old Nan. In another thread, we characterized them as a mosaic of symbols - interconnected to make a big picture, but not something you can sort out individually to find meaning. I think that's what might be happening here. He's telling us there is a connection, but not how to draw straight lines between the victims and murderers and co-conspirators in Joffrey, Bran's and Brandon's murders / attempted murders.

This is still convoluted, obviously. Anyone in the mood for sorting out some crackpottery, feel free to help untangle the possibilities. Or add some more!

[Beren_One_Hand]

Tyrion and Jaime both come to the conclusion, separately, that it was Joffery who hired the catspaw that attempted to kill Bran. When Joffery cut the book Tyrion gave him at his wedding he says "I am no stranger to Valyrian steel."  This was what allows Tyrion to deduce that it was Joffery and allowed him to remove Jaime and Cersei as suspects.  While there is no direct evidence pointing to Joffery and Joffery's motive to have Bran killed is not made clear, it is likely that Tyrion and Jaime came to the correct conclusion.

[CJ McLannister]

Good theory.  Old Nan has been getting a pass because she's old.  Someone needs to dig up the dirt on her.

[Destiel's Child]

apparently she makes good pies... with potatoes and onions

[CJ McLannister]

4 minutes ago, Stoned_Heart said:

apparently she makes good pies... with potatoes and onions

So you're saying she's going to kill Davos and serve him in a pie?  Davos is headed to an island famous for its cannibalism.  Is Old Nan secretly the leader of Skagos?  I think it's safe to assume she is.

[Destiel's Child]

yes, yes yes.

and she taught Rickon how to ride a battle unicorn

[YOVMO]

26 minutes ago, Stoned_Heart said:

yes, yes yes.

and she taught Rickon how to ride a battle unicorn

yup, amazing tin foil stuff.

 

 

[Destiel's Child]

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

yup, amazing tin foil stuff.

 

 

maybe so my dear sceptic, but we can  dream

[YOVMO]

1 minute ago, Stoned_Heart said:

maybe so my dear sceptic, but we can  dream

I am still holding onto the Bran is Jon Snow's father.

[Dorian Martell]

14 hours ago, Seams said:

This is still convoluted, obviously. Anyone in the mood for sorting out some crackpottery, feel free to help untangle the possibilities. Or add some more!

I remember the first time I drank whiskey too

[Destiel's Child]

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

I am still holding onto the Bran is Jon Snow's father.

Oh please yes... Bran wargs into Rhaegar in the past and impregnates Lyanna!

[Destiel's Child]

wait, that's just weird-cest

[YOVMO]

19 minutes ago, Stoned_Heart said:

wait, that's just weird-cest

Indeed. And all new questions. f'rinctance: in a wiercestual relationship whose line is passed down? It would explain Jon's lack of targ features. Also, since targs are ok with brother sister mating does that mean that this is ok?

[Destiel's Child]

2 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Indeed. And all new questions. f'rinctance: in a wiercestual relationship whose line is passed down? It would explain Jon's lack of targ features. Also, since targs are ok with brother sister mating does that mean that this is ok?

It's really never ok.

Yet, I condone it as it forwards the plotline.  I welcome all weird and wonderful predictions (a.k.a hopes and dreams).  Perhaps we need a place without judgement or logic to voice such visionary thoughts.

[YOVMO]

1 minute ago, Stoned_Heart said:

It's really never ok.

Yet, I condone it as it forwards the plotline.  I welcome all weird and wonderful predictions (a.k.a hopes and dreams).  Perhaps we need a place without judgement or logic to voice such visionary thoughts.

yes, def don't want to go with the arguing for the wierdcestual angle but a taboo westeros forum would be....well....most interesting. Like a room in the citadel that only marwyn knows about and blind folds whores and hedge wizards to bring them in for Thousand Eyes and One Wide Shut parties.

[Destiel's Child]

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

yes, def don't want to go with the arguing for the wierdcestual angle but a taboo westeros forum would be....well....most interesting. Like a room in the citadel that only marwyn knows about and blind folds whores and hedge wizards to bring them in for Thousand Eyes and One Wide Shut parties.

I wasn't really going for Stanley Kubrick here, but I'm all for expanding knowledge.

I was more thinking of just crazy theories, like Rickon riding a unicorn with an army of Skagosi canibals at his back (cause I refuse to believe the Umbers betrayed the Starks!!!) or the theory the Daario is a red priest sent to protect Dany.

 

[CJ McLannister]

First of all, Bran is Lyanna's nephew.  That's only a 1/4 coefficient of relatedness- so not as acceptable as cousin sex (1/8) which was not uncommon, but not as taboo as sibling sex (1/2).  So it's a grey area.

Secondly, I don't know the exact mechanics of skin-changing, but if Bran was wearing Rhaegar's skin in order to bang his aunt (likely!), it would still be Rhaegar's kid.  

[YOVMO]

7 minutes ago, Stoned_Heart said:

I wasn't really going for Stanley Kubrick here, but I'm all for expanding knowledge.

I was more thinking of just crazy theories, like Rickon riding a unicorn with an army of Skagosi canibals at his back (cause I refuse to believe the Umbers betrayed the Starks!!!) or the theory the Daario is a red priest sent to protect Dany.

 

Merling Varys Forum...but also the kubric one

[YOVMO]

3 minutes ago, CJ McLannister said:

First of all, Bran is Lyanna's nephew.  That's only a 1/4 coefficient of relatedness- so not as acceptable as cousin sex (1/8) which was not uncommon, but not as taboo as sibling sex (1/2).  So it's a grey area.

Secondly, I don't know the exact mechanics of skin-changing, but if Bran was wearing Rhaegar's skin in order to bang his aunt (likely!), it would still be Rhaegar's kid.  

you working this out is the reason I am here

[YOVMO]

10 minutes ago, CJ McLannister said:

First of all, Bran is Lyanna's nephew.  That's only a 1/4 coefficient of relatedness- so not as acceptable as cousin sex (1/8) which was not uncommon, but not as taboo as sibling sex (1/2).  So it's a grey area.

Secondly, I don't know the exact mechanics of skin-changing, but if Bran was wearing Rhaegar's skin in order to bang his aunt (likely!), it would still be Rhaegar's kid.  

BTW: It is even more acceptable when you realize people have been rooting for a dany jon hookup for years and that is more than likely Neice/Nephew incest. So I don't see why L+B=J is something we wouldn't acknowledge.