How Much Did GRRM tell D&D?

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

What's the point with arguing with a person like that, he clearly just want a cliff notes bulletpoint version of the story because anything more than that is filler.

[Darkstream]

18 minutes ago, illinifan said:

Jeyne Poole story could be given to Sansa as it was in the show.  Or even real Rickon.  The whining about the Sansa story in Season 5 is hypocritical if you think that giving the exact same story to a minor character no one remembers is okay.  

And I am getting really tired of secret and hidden characters in the books.  Martin says the GOT is meant to address the common misconceptions on record and then abuses one of the laziest tropes out there again and again, hidden secret royals.

This shows a very poor understanding of Theon's redemption arc. If you think that it is the "exact same story" to have Jeyne's character switched with someone of the social status afforded to Sansa and Rickon, you are completely missing the message and theme portrayed in GRRM's story. ASOIAF is a lot more complex and deep than d$d's themes of revenge and sadism.

[kissdbyfire]

17 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

So Theon's redemption arc should be clouded with Sansa or Rickon, ok

And we could even  get the Ramsay Sue Show in the books, like he show. Seriously, how *awesome*! /s

[illinifan]

9 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

This shows a very poor understanding of Theon's redemption arc. If you think that it is the "exact same story" to have Jeyne's character switched with someone of the social status afforded to Sansa and Rickon, you are completely missing the message and theme portrayed in GRRM's story. ASOIAF is a lot more complex and deep than d$d's themes of revenge and sadism.

One thing that is telling is that book purists who are totally okay with reading about the brutal rape and torture of a lowborn minor character because it advances Theon's redemption plot but are totally up in arms when that plot is given to a main character.  Of course, a noble lady like Sansa could be sold into a situation like happened in the show.  That is Sansa's whole arc in the book; being bartered like an object and threatened with rape.  D&D just went through with the rape part.  

[illinifan]

20 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

What's the point with arguing with a person like that, he clearly just want a cliff notes bulletpoint version of the story because anything more than that is filler.

And what is the point of arguing with book purists who think that any changes to the precious threaten world peace.  Sheesh.  This is just like LOTR book fanatics whining about the exclusion of Tom Bombadil.

[SerMixalot]

Just now, illinifan said:

One thing that is telling is that book purists who are totally okay with reading about the brutal rape and torture of a lowborn minor character because it advances Theon's redemption plot but are totally up in arms when that plot is given to a main character.  Of course, a noble lady like Sansa could be sold into a situation like happened in the show.  That is Sansa's whole arc in the book; being bartered like an object and threatened with rape.  D&D just went through with the rape part.  

What it should be telling you is

a. Even the suffering of a tertiary character like JP matters.

b. GRRM doesn't "rape" his main characters on screen-he makes a point of that.

c. Theon acting to save a "nobody" has thematic importance to the main character in that arc.

d. That you should look up the definition of gratuitous

e. D&D's priorities were to have Sansa raped-which had zero impact on the story.

[SerMixalot]

1 minute ago, illinifan said:

And what is the point of arguing with book purists who think that any changes to the precious threaten world peace.  Sheesh.  This is just like LOTR book fanatics whining about the exclusion of Tom Bombadil.

Hey Look Strawman at Work

[Darkstream]

8 minutes ago, illinifan said:

One thing that is telling is that book purists who are totally okay with reading about the brutal rape and torture of a lowborn minor character because it advances Theon's redemption plot but are totally up in arms when that plot is given to a main character.  Of course, a noble lady like Sansa could be sold into a situation like happened in the show.  That is Sansa's whole arc in the book; being bartered like an object and threatened with rape.  D&D just went through with the rape part.  

You are still missing the entire point. Who said she couldn't? This is just a strawman argument.

[Darkstream]

Aww!!    ed by @SerMixalot  

[Armand Gargalen]

3 minutes ago, illinifan said:

And what is the point of arguing with book purists who think that any changes to the precious threaten world peace.  Sheesh.  This is just like LOTR book fanatics whining about the exclusion of Tom Bombadil.

I do not pretend to speak for all "book purists", but the changes D&D made are quite more significant than Bombadil appearing or not. They go to the core of the themes and mood of the story. It is more like if in the LOTR film they had made Sauron a good but misunderstood fellow and,Frodo and Sam coward, lazy and spineless.

[SerMixalot]

2 minutes ago, Armand Gargalen said:

I do not pretend to speak for all "book purists", but the changes D&D made are quite more significant than Bombadil appearing or not. They go to the core of the themes and mood of the story. It is more like if in the LOTR film they had made Sauron a good but misunderstood fellow and,Frodo and Sam coward, lazy and spineless.

Probably have Eowyn raped too, cause it is realistic

[Kusanagi]

3 hours ago, lancerman said:

And book Jon wanted the entire Night's Watch to commit treason almost instantly after reading the pink letter. So let's not ct like Jon is some cool hand luke character.

Treason of what? Treason against what?

He relinquished command, he told those who has taken the Black to stay, and only to follow him on their own volition.

It seems like show lovers don't understand why people are complaining.

We are complaining about the bad writing, i.e. characters don't follow their established arc. We are fine with characters being stupid, we are fine with character flaws, but good writing has to set those up in a logical manner.

If you believe Book Snow acts stupidly and suffered, that's fine, but that is well foreshadowed in the books, and that is not the result of only him acting rash, that is the result of the conflicts within the Watch ever since he has become the Lord Commander. You are complaining about Book Snow being stupid only because you disregard all the setups and foreshadowings in the books. 

We, on the other hand, are saying that Show Snow's action is going against his established character, and the writers has him act stupidity just because it fits their vision of the battle, i.e. to have their deus ex machina. Rickon, Sansa, and Littlefinger have no logical reason to be there, they are just there because the writers want the Battle to happen that way, in the most idiotic fashion possible. The writers use the character as mere plot devices and they have become what we called cliches, and they have no place in any well written story.

You can of course argue that Show Snow has always been this stupid and his character arc is about him bumbling through the crisis, saved by only luck. Fine, we are just saying that this character is not interesting and is boring as hell. And we have every right to question why the writers altered the source materials so much that their adaptation does not resemble the original work in terms of themes and characters. They and the audience will be much better off if they go write a completely different story.

The reason we are complaining about the show's writing is exactly the same as people complaining about the Martha moment in Batman v Superman. You can rationalize it all you want or you may even like it, but that doesn't make it good writing. A lazy deus ex machina is what it is, you cannot get around that. You can still like the show but it doesn't make the writing any good.

[Armand Gargalen]

4 minutes ago, Kusanagi said:

Treason of what? Treason against what?

He relinquished command, he told those who has taken the Black to stay, and only to follow him on their own volition.

It seems like show lovers don't understand why people are complaining.

We are complaining about the bad writing, i.e. characters don't follow their established arc. We are fine with characters being stupid, we are fine with character flaws, but good writing has to set those up in a logical manner.

If you believe Book Snow acts stupidly and suffered, that's fine, but that is well foreshadowed in the books, and that is not the result of only him acting rash, that is the result of the conflicts within the Watch ever since he has become the Lord Commander. You are complaining about Book Snow being stupid only because you disregard all the setups and foreshadowings in the books. 

We, on the other hand, are saying that Show Snow's action is going against his established character, and the writers has him act stupidity just because it fits their vision of the battle, i.e. to have their deus ex machina. Rickon, Sansa, and Littlefinger have no logical reason to be there, they are just there because the writers want the Battle to happen that way, in the most idiotic fashion possible. The writers use the character as mere plot devices and they have become what we called cliches, and they have no place in any well written story.

You can of course argue that Show Snow has always been this stupid and his character arc is about him bumbling through the crisis, saved by only luck. Fine, we are just saying that this character is not interesting and is boring as hell. And we have every right to question why the writers altered the source materials so much that their adaptation does not resemble the original work in terms of themes and characters. They and the audience will be much better off if they go write a completely different story.

The reason we are complaining about the show's writing is exactly the same as people complaining about the Martha moment in Batman v Superman. You can rationalize it all you want or you may even like it, but that doesn't make it good writing. A lazy deus ex machina is what it is, you cannot get around that. You can still like the show but it doesn't make the writing any good.

I could have not said it better.

Actually, I happen to disagree with your interpretation of Jon´s action after the Pink Letter. But that is the nuance and beauty of the books, something the show can sadly not accomplish no longer, if it ever did.

[Kusanagi]

Antiphanes on deus ex machina:

when they don't know what to say

and have completely given up on the play

just like a finger they lift the machine

and the spectators are satisfied.

[illinifan]

1 hour ago, SerMixalot said:

What it should be telling you is

a. Even the suffering of a tertiary character like JP matters.

b. GRRM doesn't "rape" his main characters on screen-he makes a point of that.

c. Theon acting to save a "nobody" has thematic importance to the main character in that arc.

d. That you should look up the definition of gratuitous

e. D&D's priorities were to have Sansa raped-which had zero impact on the story.

A. Yes.  The suffering of the peasants matter.  That is both in the books and the TV shows in spades.  What is telling is that book purists are okay with a pretty graphic descriptions of rape and torture of Jeyne in the books which if I remember correctly involve beastiality but are upset about the horrific but thankfully less graphic than the books portrayals of Sansa's rape.  

B.  Of course, Martin's characters suffer on page.  The Red Wedding comes to mind.  If we are talking about realism, what do you think would have happened to a girl like Sansa, a noblewoman with a famous name whose father and brother were traitors to the crown?  She would have been sold off in marriage and that husband might abuse and rape her like Ramsay.  If not for the fact that Sansa is younger in the books, I think that she might have suffered the same fate.  Heck, she might still end up being raped by Harry.

C.  Theon saving someone is the arc.  He isn't going to receive any rewards regardless of who he saves but he does it anyways.  

D.  Like Theon "preparing" Jeyne for the wedding night or Ramsay siccing his dogs on her?  Why was that necessary.  

E.  D&D were faced with a dilemma.  They had to deal with the Theon arc up North.  This arc involved a character that most TV viewers and casual book readers don't remember or know about.  This involves casting another character and setting her up.  It involves time and money.  The TV shows aren't just catering to rabid book fans.  There are lots of casual book fans and "unsullied" who love the show.  I only heard about the books because of the show.  D&D has to cater to them as well.  A show that only catered to rabid books fans wouldn't get made.  So they switched out Jeyne for Sansa.  Everything that happens to Sansa in the books happens in the books but just to Jeyne.  This isn't about getting Sansa "raped" but about consolidating story lines.   And the payoff this season has been great.

[illinifan]

1 hour ago, SerMixalot said:

Hey Look Strawman at Work

It is a book and a TV show.  The fact that your favorite part of the books doesn't make it into the TV show isn't the end of the world.

[Darkstream]

10 minutes ago, illinifan said:

It is a book and a TV show.  The fact that your favorite part of the books doesn't make it into the TV show isn't the end of the world.

Boy, you sure have an army of strawmen.

 

12 minutes ago, illinifan said:

C.  Theon saving someone is the arc.  He isn't going to receive any rewards regardless of who he saves but he does it anyways

Time after time you keep establishing that you have no idea what Theon's arc is about.

A,B,C,D, and E, all a bunch of rubbish that does nothing to counter the argument against you, or to support yours.

It wouldn't be the coming of "the end of the world" if you admitted to the realities of what your precious TV show really is.

[illinifan]

2 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Boy, you sure have an army of strawmen.

 

Time after time you keep establishing that you have no idea what Theon's arc is about.

A,B,C,D, and E, all a bunch of rubbish that does nothing to counter the argument against you, or to support yours.

It wouldn't be the coming of the end of the world if you admitted the realities of what your precious TV show really is.

Why does Theon's "arc" need Jeyne Poole again?  Please tell me.  I pointed out why Sansa took that one..  because the showrunners don't want to have to deal with an additional minor character and because they wanted to give Sophie Turner, who has gotten some buzz as an actor something meaty to do.  It also helped with plot to get Sansa close to Jon and to get LF involved in the North.  

And really, the books and the shows are fun.  Why people get so upset about them is beyond me.

[Darkstream]

28 minutes ago, illinifan said:

Why does Theon's "arc" need Jeyne Poole again?  Please tell me.

Here, this person has articulated it far better than I have the ability to do.

http://www.therainbowhub.com/jeyne-poole-and-bad-storytelling-why-we-need-to-stop-making-excuses-for-gratuitous-rape-scenes/

In spoiler for length and off topic.

 

Quote

 

Claiming that the stories of Jeyne Poole and Sansa  Stark can be interchangeable is downright disturbing. These are not the same characters.  They have different plot trajectories in the books. Sansa is a major character with the sixth highest number of POV chapters in A Song of Ice and Fire. Jeyne, meanwhile, is a minor character in the first book, has a cameo in the fourth, and only plays a significant role in the fifth.

Let me make something clear: this is not an argument saying that raping Jeyne is okay. That’s ludicrous. However, there is a reason Jeyne was married to Ramsay. There is a clear point to her story. There are aspects to her character and what happened to her that are simply lost when the one marrying Ramsay is Sansa Stark.

To claim that somehow the rape of Jeyne Poole makes the rape of Sansa Stark somehow okay, or makes the book readers hypocrites, operates on the disgusting notion that female characters (despite who they are, what they’ve done, or anything about them really) are interchangeable rape dolls. That their characters are so inconsequential that you can just swap out their respective plotlines regardless of the roles they are supposed to play in the story. Basically, it’s pure misogyny.

But also, it just downright displays a complete lack of understanding of the story of Jeyne Poole (the character Sansa Rape Apologists claim WE don’t care about) as well as logic.

Jeyne Poole’s point is that she “doesn’t matter”. And no, I don’t think she actually doesn’t matter. She does—in a HUGE WAY. Jeyne, her character, and her story serve a huge thematic purpose. And that purpose is underscored by the fact that in the eyes of Westeros, she “doesn’t matter.”

In the books, Jeyne Poole is a young girl from Winterfell, the daughter of Winterfell steward Vayon Poole and best friend to Sansa Stark. When the household of Winterfell is taken prisoner in AGOT Sansa pleads with Cersei Lannister not to hurt Jeyne, who is a “good girl” who has “done no treason”. Littlefinger offers to see to her, and when Sansa returns to her quarters, Jeyne is gone.

When we see Jeyne again in A Feast For Crows, she is headed to Winterfell, claiming to be Arya Stark, due to marry Ramsay Bolton. She has been forced to impersonate Arya, sent to Roose Bolton by the Lannisters to help secure his hold on Winterfell and the North.

It is revealed that in the intervening time, Jeyne was forced into sexual slavery in a brothel before she was thrown into some wolf skins and sent to be Ramsay’s bride. Jeyne is terrified of marrying Ramsay, pleading with Theon to help her escape before the wedding. She is married as “Arya Stark” to Ramsay in front of a company of Northern Lords and on her wedding night, she is raped, and Theon/Reek is forced to take part. From then on, Jeyne spends weeks being beaten, threatened, assaulted, and brutalized by Ramsay Bolton. Her cries are heard throughout Winterfell. Ramsay threatens to cut off her feet and it is implied that he forces bestiality on her, among other things.

Eventually, Theon does help Jeyne escape with the help of Spearwives (Wildling woman warriors) who believe she is the real Arya. In fact, the only concern anyone shows about the little girl being tortured comes from Theon and the people who believe Jeyne is Arya. Jeyne is even encouraged to pretend to be Arya after she escapes Ramsay so that people will continue to help her.

Because while “Arya Stark” matters, Jeyne Poole does not.

This is a pretty huge deal. And Jeyne’s story does not just serve Theon’s storyline. It also serves to present a very important message about Westeros, about the inherent hypocrisy in chivalrous feudal societies, and about rape culture in general. Jeyne “did not matter” which is why Littlefinger was able to throw her into a brothel, then serve her up as a false Arya. While Sansa had to be kept in some relative safety thanks to her name and family connections giving her importance as a political bargaining chip, the steward’s daughter has none of that, so she can be thrown in a brothel and brutalized. The focus given to people who “matter”, in fact, allows for a system in which innocent children like Jeyne to be horribly tortured. Because while spearwives might be sent to Winterfell to save “Arya Stark”, while Northern lords might start to rise up against the Boltons when they hear “Ned Stark’s daughter” screaming for long enough, no one is going to give a shit about Jeyne Poole. The only people who show any sign of caring about Jeyne, not the fake Arya, but Jeyne herself, are Sansa Stark and Theon Greyjoy.

It’s kind of an important point. Jeyne Poole can be brutalized by Ramsay Bolton. But “Arya Stark” gets people running to help her.

Jeyne Poole is a great paradox. She matters so much because of how she “doesn’t matter.” Jeyne is kind. She takes pity on Theon Greyjoy/Reek and sees him as a person worth caring about when everyone else treats Theon as an animal. Jeyne used to tease the real Arya Stark and call her “Arya Horseface” as well because despite the fact that Jeyne is a good girl and kind, she can also be a brat. Jeyne Poole is a person— a real flesh and blood person— who lives through all manner of horrible violence and still carries on and endures. She is strong, she is kind, she is afraid, she is a child, and she “doesn’t matter.” And for all those reasons, she in fact, truly does matter.

There’s no false Arya in the show’s version. Sansa Stark matters on her own merit as a person, and she matters by virtue of her name to the world around her. She is who she says she is, she is the (supposed) heir to Winterfell, she is not the sort of girl one should be able to just toss into Ramsay Bolton’s clutches (more on that later). So when you trade in Jeyne Poole for Sansa Stark, you are losing a huge, compelling part of what made Jeyne’s story matter, what allowed the rape to happen in the first place, and a huge thematic element of the whole story of Jeyne Poole in the first place.

Whereas Sansa Stark is the sort of valuable marriage fodder that caused Tyrion Lannister to make sure someone saved her from the mobs, that caused the Lannisters to marry her to Tyrion, that made Lysa Arryn and House Tyrell jump at the chance to marry her into their family, that led Littlefinger to rescue her from King’s Landing, Jeyne is not. She could be tossed into a brothel, whipped, and then given to the Boltons.

So please, stop treating these two characters like they’re interchangeable rape dolls. They’re not. Jeyne mattered on her own for a reason. And her being Jeyne, NOT actually a highborn girl like Sansa or Arya Stark, is part of what drives her story. When we book readers are decrying the choice to insert Sansa into Jeyne’s place, we’re not claiming that what happened to Jeyne is any less awful. We’re actually drawing the distinction between two young girls and showing them respect as the separate characters they are, as well as understanding what Jeyne Poole means. We’re refusing to reduce two female characters to their rape. Jeyne Poole’s rape and Sansa Stark’s rape are not interchangeable. Jeyne Poole and Sansa Stark are not interchangeable. They are more than just their rape. To somehow claim that the rape of Jeyne Poole somehow invalidates the anger about what happened to Sansa reduces both girls — and by extension, female characters in general— to objects of sexual violence.

Jeyne Poole and Sansa Stark are not interchangeable rape dolls. Their stories are not the same.

 

[Lord Varys]

As to the original topic:

The showrunners apparently got some of the major steps and the projected endings. I don't think they got a detailed outline or anything remotely like it. What we have heard is that George met and talked to them, nothing more. From George's writing style it is apparent that he doesn't write detailed outlines for himself so it is very unlikely that he wrote some for them.

I don't understand the importance for this because the show really wants to (and does) tell its own story. They do pretty much whatever they want with the source material and for that it is not all that necessary for them to know what George has planned for the books.

They had every chance to read the first five books but that didn't prevent them from doing whatever the hell they wanted to do with the story. There is really no good reason to expect that they care all that much about plot lines George has yet to write. Sure, them knowing stuff might cause them to include certain plot in their story but that is not a guarantee.