YOVMO

Poor Kerwin

32 posts in this topic

I am wondering if anyone has given any thought to poor kerwin.

After being raped by four crews men and then basically mocked for it by Vic he winds up getting thrown overboard.

 

So is this just GRRM reinforcing the cruelty of the iron born or is this something else. I mean, you could have, in a lot of ways, made the iron born out to be 1) cruel and 2) specifically antagonistic to maesters in a lot of ways. Lord knows GRRM has no shortage of ways to show cruelty.

But when the Mountain rapes the inn keepers daughter and then passes her off to the men and then demands change of a silver it isn't just randomly cruel. Rape is specifically important when talking about the mountain for obvious reasons.

So why not have kerwin beaten, castrated, called a doodie head? What is it about having him gay gang raped that is relevant here? Or is it nothing?

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It's biblical.  The Ironborn do not practice good hospitality.  

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13 minutes ago, CJ McLannister said:

It's biblical.  The Ironborn do not practice good hospitality.  

Not practicing good hospitality is one thing...being anally raped by 4 sailors is a little more than that. I mean, they could have no practiced good hospitality by just killing him. I honestly don't believe that GRRM uses rape randomly. Rape is a very specific crime. When sansa was almost raped and saved by the hound that was incredibly specific against her innocence. Gregor rapes Ellia with the blood of her children in his had...that is loaded with significance. In fact, all of the rapes have some kind of deeper significance as I can see and no other form of violence would have suited the plot so well...with the exception of poor kerwin.

 

I mean, you could very well be right...but I was just thinking.

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1 hour ago, CJ McLannister said:

It's biblical.  The Ironborn do not practice good hospitality.  

We saw that on the shield islands.

Kerwin's rape is just a thing that happens.

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1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

I honestly don't believe that GRRM uses rape randomly.

I believe he does. He wants to show the randomness of cruelty in all shapes and forms. 

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2 hours ago, YOVMO said:

So is this just GRRM reinforcing the cruelty of the iron born or is this something else. I mean, you could have, in a lot of ways, made the iron born out to be 1) cruel and 2) specifically antagonistic to maesters in a lot of ways. Lord knows GRRM has no shortage of ways to show cruelty.

It’s probably something you should ask the author.

My opinion is that it is written about so to explain the mindset of the Ironborn. Maester Kerwin was a captive taken from Greenshield. Euron gave the Maester to Victarion. Vic sees the Maester as weak and has nothing but contempt for Kerwin as evidenced in “The Iron Suitor”.

Vic does not intervene in Maester Kerwin’s plight even though Kerwin tells Vic of the assaults upon his person.  When Moqorro supposedly heals Victarion’s hand, Vic has Kerwin tossed overboard.

As harsh as the treatment of Kerwin was I find it interesting that readers think that the Ironborn will become an ally of Dany especially when Victarion says, “He [Euron] sends me like a serving man to fetch her. How he will howl when I claim her for myself.”

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2 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I am wondering if anyone has given any thought to poor kerwin.

After being raped by four crews men and then basically mocked for it by Vic he winds up getting thrown overboard.

 

So is this just GRRM reinforcing the cruelty of the iron born or is this something else. I mean, you could have, in a lot of ways, made the iron born out to be 1) cruel and 2) specifically antagonistic to maesters in a lot of ways. Lord knows GRRM has no shortage of ways to show cruelty.

But when the Mountain rapes the inn keepers daughter and then passes her off to the men and then demands change of a silver it isn't just randomly cruel. Rape is specifically important when talking about the mountain for obvious reasons.

So why not have kerwin beaten, castrated, called a doodie head? What is it about having him gay gang raped that is relevant here? Or is it nothing?

Interesting point, it was handled with nonchalant. Victarion himself was nonchalant about it, he gave him a knife and told him to defend himself. Of course he would have died if he tried, although he died anyway. 

Cruelty, difference of culture, difference of classes. Sad stuff

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10 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

It’s probably something you should ask the author.

My opinion is that it is written about so to explain the mindset of the Ironborn. Maester Kerwin was a captive taken from Greenshield. Euron gave the Maester to Victarion. Vic sees the Maester as weak and has nothing but contempt for Kerwin as evidenced in “The Iron Suitor”.

Vic does not intervene in Maester Kerwin’s plight even though Kerwin tells Vic of the assaults upon his person.  When Moqorro supposedly heals Victarion’s hand, Vic has Kerwin tossed overboard.

As harsh as the treatment of Kerwin was I find it interesting that readers think that the Ironborn will become an ally of Dany especially when Victarion says, “He [Euron] sends me like a serving man to fetch her. How he will howl when I claim her for myself.”

Unfortunately GRRM isn't answering my calls due to him slowly writing WOW. That said, I also find it very surprising that readers are already assuming Dany and Ironborn alliance will work. There are more reasons than you can shake a stick at this this simply is destined to fail in one way or another.

 

I follow the whole bit about Vic and Kerwin....I mean, I just wonder why GRRM chooses rape when he could have chosen a savage beating, any number of tortures from crude like bond getting his nuts broken with a knotted rope to something more complicated like the way Aerys rigged up a system for Brandon to strangle himself while trying to save Rickard.

Like I mentioned in the original question...rape doesn't always seem so random but is used as a plot device dealing with issues of fertility or violation or stolen innocence. But like was mentioned above, it may just be to show how odd and gratuitous things can get.

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13 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Interesting point, it was handled with nonchalant. Victarion himself was nonchalant about it, he gave him a knife and told him to defend himself. Of course he would have died if he tried, although he died anyway. 

Cruelty, difference of culture, difference of classes. Sad stuff

Yeah. To me it is always that non-chalant stuff that sticks out. Enormous fire breathing dragons will never be as interesting to me as something like a prophecy that sounds like it is about Frankenmountain as a giant with no face but there are too many descriptions of the titan of braavos to make that sure, or, even better, Lemongate

I would buy difference of culture, but there is nothing in canon that I can recall that shows the ironborn as being really into butt rape. Like if there was some stone tablet on old wyk with a drawing of someone being butt raped on a ship I would say...well it is the old way. I mean, for all the talk about the old way I really don't remember any forced sodomy.

Difference of class I can surely buy. I see why ironborn sailors would want to harm a maester. But they could have just as easily kicked his teeth in.....and, for that matter, more easily most likely.

For all the differing opinions and theories I see on here I don't think anyone has argued that GRRM has used symbolism in a haphazard way.

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Rape is about power and control.  The sailors rape him because they can.  It's demeaning.  They're taking an educated respected man and treating him like a whore.  They're showing that they're better than him.

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10 minutes ago, CJ McLannister said:

Rape is about power and control.  The sailors rape him because they can.  It's demeaning.  They're taking an educated respected man and treating him like a whore.  They're showing that they're better than him.

This is the very obvious and outward thing. I mean, yes of course that. But they could have done that with their fists to his face instead of their, er....oars...to his, erm....kracken if you get my drift. I mean what you say here would make total sense, but an bunch of sailors raping a maesters starfish is a very particular way of asserting dominance.

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6 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Yeah. To me it is always that non-chalant stuff that sticks out. Enormous fire breathing dragons will never be as interesting to me as something like a prophecy that sounds like it is about Frankenmountain as a giant with no face but there are too many descriptions of the titan of braavos to make that sure, or, even better, Lemongate

I would buy difference of culture, but there is nothing in canon that I can recall that shows the ironborn as being really into butt rape. Like if there was some stone tablet on old wyk with a drawing of someone being butt raped on a ship I would say...well it is the old way. I mean, for all the talk about the old way I really don't remember any forced sodomy.

Difference of class I can surely buy. I see why ironborn sailors would want to harm a maester. But they could have just as easily kicked his teeth in.....and, for that matter, more easily most likely.

For all the differing opinions and theories I see on here I don't think anyone has argued that GRRM has used symbolism in a haphazard way.

Frankenmountin was cool, I like Jon opening blue eyes *shudder* I wouldn't give much thought to the titan, and even less to a tree that may or may not exist, but that's me lol.

Difference in culture, in literal dominance. Hence Victarion being genuinely surprised the master didn't use his knife.

Rape seems to effect all soldiers of the 7 kingdoms and essos, not just the iron islands. 

Long sea voyage? Who knows why bad people do things? I don't think think it was haphazard. Victarion knew there was something wrong going on and, to the full extent of his intelligence, tried to fix it.

 

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4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Frankenmountin was cool, I like Jon opening blue eyes *shudder* I wouldn't give much thought to the titan, and even less to a tree that may or may not exist, but that's me lol.

Difference in culture, in literal dominance. Hence Victarion being genuinely surprised the master didn't use his knife.

Rape seems to effect all soldiers of the 7 kingdoms and essos, not just the iron islands. 

Long sea voyage? Who knows why bad people do things? I don't think think it was haphazard. Victarion knew there was something wrong going on and, to the full extent of his intelligence, tried to fix it.

 

most of this is fair enough except for the bold. I mean we all enjoy in our own way but stuff like the titan of bravos (which I am pretty sure is the giant with no face blah blah blah and lemongate is what makes it fascinating to me.

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42 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Sad stuff

yup. They really made his brown eye blue.


Sorry, couldn't help it.

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5 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

most of this is fair enough except for the bold. I mean we all enjoy in our own way but stuff like the titan of bravos (which I am pretty sure is the giant with no face blah blah blah and lemongate is what makes it fascinating to me.

Brans vision was the titan, interesting, never thought of that.

4 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

yup. They really made his brown eye blue.


Sorry, couldn't help it.

Lol, tasteful

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35 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I just wonder why GRRM chooses

Like I said you will have to ask him.

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3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Brans vision was the titan, interesting, never thought of that.

Lol, tasteful

There is a quite brilliant write up on here about the grand faceless man conspiracy which I happen to think is a very big piece of the puzzle and that fits really well into it. I def suggest reading it if you haven't.

Yeah, tasteful....

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1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Like I said you will have to ask him.

if only there was a place where people could engage in wild speculation

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1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

There is a quite brilliant write up on here about the grand faceless man conspiracy which I happen to think is a very big piece of the puzzle and that fits really well into it. I def suggest reading it if you haven't.

I do believe in this, though I haven't read the theories.  I just hope it's not used to explain all the inexplicable betrayals (Shae, the Umbers).

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

if only there was a place where people could engage in wild speculation

Please start a thread for wild speculation... I would love to hear all the Ser Pounce=Azorahai style theories.

 

Edited by Stoned_Heart

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1 minute ago, Stoned_Heart said:

I do believe in this, though I haven't read the theories.  I just hope it's not used to explain all the inexplicable betrayals (Shae, the Umbers).

 

I think that is is frighteningly good work and am totally in line with it. I have gone through it and of course perfection is totally unheard of but this, to me, represents a story arc I believe in

 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/53858-adwd-spoilers-the-grand-faceless-men-conspiracy-theory/

 

1 minute ago, Stoned_Heart said:

Please start a thread for wild speculation... I would love to hear all the Ser Pounce=Azorahai style theories.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ser+pounce+azor+ahai

Ser Pounce = AA is good. Azor Hot Pie is also great as is Varys the Merman.

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