Would the royces be as powerful as the mandrelys if they controlled gulltown and the rest of the peninsula they share with it

[TheSTARKempire]

10 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

And they could not outright win against the Boltons, this is despite the Boltons sending more men South with Robb. It is only till Rodrik intervenes is Ramay captured.

If the Manderlys were so powerful then why did Robb not send a raven asking them to do more against the Ironbor and why did they send so few to help the captured Winterfell.

 

Having more heavy horse than other Northern Lords means exactly that, it does not mean being able to raise more soldiers.

But I fail to see how Boltons could be very powerful? I guess this has more to do with plot armour.

 We can assume that Mandely lands and Bolton lands are equal in size and equally fertile. But Bolton has no significant port and no silver mine. The small number they sent to Robb is not wholly indicative of their power in comparison to Bolton's. perhaps, they are also more business-minded and didnt have much fighting men to start with. so, the only area where bolton could beat Manderly is in military strength. in other aspects, manderly shits on the boltons.

[Winter's Cold]

The Manderlies didn't act against the Boltons for two main reasons: Wylis Manderly was a hostage and Roose Bolton's alliance with Bethany Dustin. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

22 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Wealth wise certainly. Prestige wise not at all, they are still outsiders within the North. Military wise it seems unclear.

They only sent 1,500 men with Robb. Both the Karstarks and Boltons sent more, 800 more in the Karstarks case.

When Rodrik called for help when Winterfell was taken both the Manderlys and Karstarks sent a few hundred men. The Boltons also sent men, though not to help. Ramsay had 600 which was more than Manderly brought, likely double it.

ADWD at Winterfell Wyman was summoned and only brought 300 men (some may have even been survivors of Rodrik's host) while the Karstarks supplied 450 for Stannis.

 

In the 5 books (and sample chapters of book 6) we have seen more actual soldiers from both the Boltons and Karstarks than we have the Manderlys.  Now while I am very certain that the Manderlys are more powerful than the Karstarks it is not very clear in regards to the Boltons. The Boltons may well be the Starks most powerful vassals.

In the Vale there is less mystery about how powerful the Royces are. They are clearly the most powerful vassal with their own Lordly vassals (Coldwater and Tollet) and a decent amount of control of Gulltown through their vassals the Shetts.

Davos description of WH says that every single parapet was manned, and 50 warships of 100 oars a piece is a minimum of 5k men.  The navy alone gives WH the most men.

[GallowsKnight]

10 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Davos description of WH says that every single parapet was manned, and 50 warships of 100 oars a piece is a minimum of 5k men.  The navy alone gives WH the most men.

I agree in spirit that the Manderly have the most men. But oarsmen don't count in land forces and marines are a grey area.

[Protagoras]

Who is to say that they are not?

They have a status clearly higher than the Manderleys and certainly doesn´t come off as poor nor weak. They might even have better defensible castle. In addition, several houses seems to be following House Royce´s lead.

If I had to pick one to be myself, I would go with House Royce easily

 

[Tarellen]

7 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Who is to say that they are not?

They have a status clearly higher than the Manderleys and certainly doesn´t come off as poor nor weak. They might even have better defensible castle. In addition, several houses seems to be following House Royce´s lead.

If I had to pick one to be myself, I would go with House Royce easily

 

 

On June 7, 2016 at 2:53 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Davos description of WH says that every single parapet was manned, and 50 warships of 100 oars a piece is a minimum of 5k men.  The navy alone gives WH the most men.

Yeah the new navy sould be giving them the edge over the royces

[The Wolves]

On June 7, 2016 at 10:46 AM, TheSTARKempire said:

But I fail to see how Boltons could be very powerful? I guess this has more to do with plot armour.

 We can assume that Mandely lands and Bolton lands are equal in size and equally fertile. But Bolton has no significant port and no silver mine. The small number they sent to Robb is not wholly indicative of their power in comparison to Bolton's. perhaps, they are also more business-minded and didnt have much fighting men to start with. so, the only area where bolton could beat Manderly is in military strength. in other aspects, manderly shits on the boltons.

People think the Boltons are powerful because they've been the Starks' main rivals. And all the other Great Houses main rivals are their most powerful bannermen so naturally people think the Boltons are the Starks most powerful bannermen. 

When I would say the Manderlys are the North's most powerful hose after the Starks. 

[Protagoras]

On 2016-06-07 at 8:53 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Davos description of WH says that every single parapet was manned, and 50 warships of 100 oars a piece is a minimum of 5k men.  The navy alone gives WH the most men.

Sailors doesn´t count as soldiers.

[Free Northman Reborn]

From circumstantial evidence there is a case to be made that the North on average has fewer Houses, but that the average Northern House - in addition to ruling vastly more land - also commands more men than the average Southron House.

We know from Stannis - who is said to know the strength of every House in Westeros - that a prominent southron House like the Florents can raise 2000 men. Similarly, we read of two strong southron Houses - one was House Dondarrion, I think - combining to raise 4000 men to go to some war in Dorne - it may have been against a Vulture King or someone.

In any case, from the Northern evidence we already see that one of the most distant, rural and northern Houses in the North - the Karstarks - can raise around 3000 men. (2300 with Robb, 450 with Stannis, and an unknown number in Ser Rodrik's host), the Boltons are at around 4000 men or more, and with good logic we can place the likes of the Dustins above the Karstarks and the Ryswells potentially on a par with the Karstarks.

And that is before we get to the Manderlys, who can quite plausibly be placed at a level of 6000 or more.

So we have a number of Northern Houses that can quite easily be placed well above the strength of House Florent - some double or more of House Floren'ts strength and it is therefore plausible to suggest an average Northern House strength in the region of perhaps 2500 or thereabouts.

So in short, I think the North has over the millennia consolidated into fewer, more powerful Houses, each ruling far more territory, than in the South. The South in contrast has more, but on average weaker, Houses.

In the end, this still adds up to a similar overall total per similar strength kingdom, it is just that in the North that total is split between fewer Houses than in the South.

Anyway, it is a hypothesis of mine, as yet unproven, and likely to remain so until we have more detail on the typical strength of Houses in the Vale, for example, and more information on the strength of the remaining Northern Houses.

 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

4 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

And that is before we get to the Manderlys, who can quite plausibly be placed at a level of 6000 or more.

Based on what?

1,500 sent with Robb

300 with Wyman to Winterfell

Around 200 sent to help Rodrik retake Winterfell

Presumably around 500-1k City Watch for White Harbor (a quarter the size of Kings Landing)

While I think there is more 3,000 more seems a bit of stretch.

And I said before, the comment that you seem to have took offense to, there is no real evidence that the Manderlys can raise more soldiers than the Boltons. They might be able to be, we just have never really has a conclusive answer to it. It is all theory.

The Royces are clearly the strongest in the Vale, Yronwoods in Dorne, Freys in the Riverlands, Harlaws in the Iron Islands, Hightowers in the Reach.

The North is in the same position as the Westerlands, Stormlands and Crownlands in the reader not really knowing who is the most powerful vassal.

[Tarellen]

4 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Sailors doesn´t count as soldiers.

So 5000 sailors don't count? Why?

[Sullen]

5 minutes ago, Tarellen said:

So 5000 sailors don't count? Why?

With maybe the exception of the Ironborn, professional sailors are not professional soldiers.

If you count sailors, why not count craftsmen, farmers, or any other profession as well?

[aryagonnakill#2]

5 minutes ago, Sullen said:

With maybe the exception of the Ironborn, professional sailors are not professional soldiers.

If you count sailors, why not count craftsmen, farmers, or any other profession as well?

But manpower can be redeployed.  If Manderly wanted as many land troops as possible he could put spears in their hands instead of oars.  When Manderly says he has the most heavy horse north of the neck it means he has the most lords, knights, free riders and sellswords, and that is a product of the overall population available.  Right now he chooses to use a lot of that population for ships but he doesn't have to.

[Sullen]

Just now, aryagonnakill#2 said:

But manpower can be redeployed.  If Manderly wanted as many land troops as possible he could put spears in their hands instead of oars.  When Manderly says he has the most heavy horse north of the neck it means he has the most lords, knights, free riders and sellswords, and that is a product of the overall population available.  Right now he chooses to use a lot of that population for ships but he doesn't have to.

Using sailors as manpower is a terrible, terrible idea.

The more of them he loses in battle, the more his ships become useless. You need trained individuals to sail, if lose them, and the efficiency of your ships go down, you might even be forced to leave some of them behind if you lose too many sailors.

Similarly, put swords in the hands of farmers can have equally disastrous results, it can lead to famine.

Most armies are made up of professional trained soldiers, and not random smallfolk.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

20 minutes ago, Tarellen said:

So 5000 sailors don't count? Why?

Same reason why 5,000 farmers don't count. It is either a population count or a solider count but it is pointless blurring the lines.

Stannis was not counting his sailors in his 5k as the majority of the sailors of Westeos (Iron Islands excepted) are not warriors

[aryagonnakill#2]

1 minute ago, Sullen said:

Using sailors as manpower is a terrible, terrible idea.

The more of them he loses in battle, the more his ships become useless. You need trained individuals to sail, if lose them, and the efficiency of your ships go down, you might even be forced to leave some of them behind if you lose too many sailors.

Similarly, put swords in the hands of farmers can have equally disastrous results, it can lead to famine.

Most armies are made up of professional trained soldiers, and not random smallfolk.

I don't want to turn this into another endless debate about the composition of armies in westeros, but that do's directly against what we are told in the books.  The horsemen are the trained soldiers, the spearmen are just small folk.

The fleet Manderly built is brand new, he tells Davos himself that his sailors are not skilled, and Davos hears at a bar that Manderly is hiring every orphan in the city to join his ranks, those are not professionals.  Manderly decided to use his manpower to build and man a fleet, but he does not have to do that.

[Sullen]

2 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I don't want to turn this into another endless debate about the composition of armies in westeros, but that do's directly against what we are told in the books.  The horsemen are the trained soldiers, the spearmen are just small folk.

The fleet Manderly built is brand new, he tells Davos himself that his sailors are not skilled, and Davos hears at a bar that Manderly is hiring every orphan in the city to join his ranks, those are not professionals.  Manderly decided to use his manpower to build and man a fleet, but he does not have to do that.

Yes, he's asking orphans, people without valuable skills, he's not going to start drawing manpower from his workforce, he's going to try to get as many useless smallfolk as possible to become soldiers/sailors.

Those orphans would then grow to become professional soldiers/sailors as well, or would use their wages to then become productive members of the society.

[The Wolves]

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

From circumstantial evidence there is a case to be made that the North on average has fewer Houses, but that the average Northern House - in addition to ruling vastly more land - also commands more men than the average Southron House.

We know from Stannis - who is said to know the strength of every House in Westeros - that a prominent southron House like the Florents can raise 2000 men. Similarly, we read of two strong southron Houses - one was House Dondarrion, I think - combining to raise 4000 men to go to some war in Dorne - it may have been against a Vulture King or someone.

In any case, from the Northern evidence we already see that one of the most distant, rural and northern Houses in the North - the Karstarks - can raise around 3000 men. (2300 with Robb, 450 with Stannis, and an unknown number in Ser Rodrik's host), the Boltons are at around 4000 men or more, and with good logic we can place the likes of the Dustins above the Karstarks and the Ryswells potentially on a par with the Karstarks.

And that is before we get to the Manderlys, who can quite plausibly be placed at a level of 6000 or more.

So we have a number of Northern Houses that can quite easily be placed well above the strength of House Florent - some double or more of House Floren'ts strength and it is therefore plausible to suggest an average Northern House strength in the region of perhaps 2500 or thereabouts.

So in short, I think the North has over the millennia consolidated into fewer, more powerful Houses, each ruling far more territory, than in the South. The South in contrast has more, but on average weaker, Houses.

In the end, this still adds up to a similar overall total per similar strength kingdom, it is just that in the North that total is split between fewer Houses than in the South.

Anyway, it is a hypothesis of mine, as yet unproven, and likely to remain so until we have more detail on the typical strength of Houses in the Vale, for example, and more information on the strength of the remaining Northern Houses.

 

 

I heard that the North has at least 40 mountain clans big and small, since you pay attention to these things I was wondering is that accurate? 

[Protagoras]

6 hours ago, Tarellen said:

So 5000 sailors don't count? Why?

 

6 hours ago, Sullen said:

With maybe the exception of the Ironborn, professional sailors are not professional soldiers.

If you count sailors, why not count craftsmen, farmers, or any other profession as well?

 

6 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Same reason why 5,000 farmers don't count. It is either a population count or a solider count but it is pointless blurring the lines.

Stannis was not counting his sailors in his 5k as the majority of the sailors of Westeos (Iron Islands excepted) are not warriors

Looks like Sullen and Littledragon have already answered this for me.

Thanx!

[GallowsKnight]

I'm glad the sailor point has been answered by now. I'll add a few comments.

In a naval battle the Oarsmen and Sailors will fight. It's a significant manpower advantage the Westerosi and Braavosi have over any ship rowed by slaves. Some might have weapons, other might just use naval tools, marlinspikes, boarding axes etc. There will be a smaller forces of soldiers and archers. Who I'll refer to as marines. These guys would have weapons and armour and training. But it's a close chaotic melee like Davos experiences on the Blackwater not a pitched field battle.

You can't just put a spear in a sailor's hands. Firstly you need his equipment including the spear to begin with. Most Westerosi foot soldiers are leveis, but they bring their gear. It's part of the social contract with their lords. In return for special privileges they provide service. They farm most of the time, but will have had some basic drilling. So you need to train the sailor.

Then if you take the sailor or the marines off the ship you make the ship worthless. Ships are an expensive investment.

Only in unique situations might you use the marines or sailors in non naval combat. For example in a siege on an Island like Dragonstone, you might not be able to bring as many men as you need. So the sailors might dig ditchs, build ramps, push siege weapons and the marines fight. But you don't want to push the sailors into the front of combat. They'll get butchered and if you have to withdraw you'll have to abandon uncrewed ships.