Arya vs. the Waif

[Cas Stark]

58 minutes ago, hallam said:

The quality of the posts whining about the show has really declined this season. I am very disappointed in them.

Because getting stabbed wasn't part of the plan.

Arya made plan A, to lure the waif back to her lair and defeat her in the dark. After that plan failed she was forced to seek help from Lady Crane and then make a much longer run across the city. Plan B worked.

I think the whiners are making a fundamental error. Lets say the Waif got the blind girl training. Has the show told us that she was any good at it? Has the show shown the Waif beating Arya on an occasion when they were both blind? 

No, no and nopety-nope.

What the show has consistently shown us is that Arya is smarter than the Waif. So given that she knows the types of fight each is likely to win, she sets up a situation in which she either has an advantage over the Waif or the advantage of the Waif is minimized. 

Arya doesn't just have the benefit of knowing how to fight in the dark, she expects to be fighting in the dark. Cutting the candle gives Arya a few seconds of surprise and she is able to dispatch the Waif before she has a chance to analyze the situation.

Bottom line is that Arya is cleverer than the whiners.

If Bobcut wasn't any good at blind training, why is she training Arya?  If I can't do algebra, no one will engage me as an alegebra tutor.  So, I think this fails, Bobcut kicks Arya's ass every time they fight, there is no reason to believe and the show does not give us one to think she can't fight in the dark.

How has the show consistently shown us that Arya is smarter?  I must have dozed off during those times.

And even IF all you say is true, which I don't accept, Bobcut had no injuries, and she's fighting someone who has severe abdominal injuries, which should have automatically given Bobcut the advantage,

[hallam]

16 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

If Bobcut wasn't any good at blind training, why is she training Arya?

Bill Belichick is the chief coach of the New England Patriots. Do you think he could run one end of the pitch and back without a heart attack? Do you think he is a better quarterback than Brady?

You don't need to be able to do a physical skill to teach it.

[Maiden of Myst]

Water dancing in the dark is apparently fairly effective.

Buh'bye waif.

 

[Cas Stark]

23 minutes ago, hallam said:

Bill Belichick is the chief coach of the New England Patriots. Do you think he could run one end of the pitch and back without a heart attack? Do you think he is a better quarterback than Brady?

You don't need to be able to do a physical skill to teach it.

This seems like an excuse.  You speculate that Bobcut lacks the skill to fight blind, but there is no evidence on which to base this except in hindsight. This is filling in the gaps that the show left by inventing something that isn't in the show, hinted at in the show.

Also you didn't answer the question as to what in the show indicated that Arya was smarter than Bobcut.  I don't recall anything.

Lastly, Bobcut is not a coach, she's not there to set strategy and manage the FM, she's a trainer, the only trainer we see outside of Bathrobe Jacqen/Not Jaqen.  

I strongly suspect that Tom Brady's position coach, was a QB before he was a coach.  

[hallam]

6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

This seems like an excuse.  You speculate that Bobcut lacks the skill to fight blind, but there is no evidence on which to base this except in hindsight. This is filling in the gaps that the show left by inventing something that isn't in the show, hinted at in the show.

Also you didn't answer the question as to what in the show indicated that Arya was smarter than Bobcut.  I don't recall anything.

Lastly, Bobcut is not a coach, she's not there to set strategy and manage the FM, she's a trainer, the only trainer we see outside of Bathrobe Jacqen/Not Jaqen.  

I strongly suspect that Tom Brady's position coach, was a QB before he was a coach.  

WTF?

There is all the proof you need that bobcut is worse at fighting in the dark than Arya. That's her bobcut head on a spike in the hall of faces, not Arya.

[Red Tiger]

10 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

This seems like an excuse.  You speculate that Bobcut lacks the skill to fight blind, but there is no evidence on which to base this except in hindsight. This is filling in the gaps that the show left by inventing something that isn't in the show, hinted at in the show.

Also you didn't answer the question as to what in the show indicated that Arya was smarter than Bobcut.  I don't recall anything.

Lastly, Bobcut is not a coach, she's not there to set strategy and manage the FM, she's a trainer, the only trainer we see outside of Bathrobe Jacqen/Not Jaqen.  

I strongly suspect that Tom Brady's position coach, was a QB before he was a coach.  

Wow, this is an atrocious defense of the waif's lack of skill.

This is the Chewbacca defense x1000

[Cas Stark]

Just now, hallam said:

WTF?

There is all the proof you need that bobcut is worse at fighting in the dark than Arya. That's her bobcut head on a spike in the hall of faces, not Arya.

Good storytelling doesn't work like that.  You don't start at the end and work backwards.  She was better because she won.  

There is NOTHING IN THE SHOW that supports the idea that Bobcut would or could or should lose to Arya, who couldn't beat her when she was without her stick!!!  So, how could she possibly beat her, outside of going cartoon Superhero, when she's seriously wounded in the abdomen which would limit her movement, if she hadn't turned into a totally unrealistic super hero chick who is cured of a severe stabbing one day later.

It was a totally unrealistic, pulled from The Avengers/Superman/Batman/pick your comic hero, that is out of place in the gritty realistic world that is supposed to be GOT. And that is why it was received so poorly.  Not just by the handful of ranters on this web site, but by all kinds of people, critics, show only watchers who thought it was terrible for all the same reasons.

 

[Ser Hyle]

2 hours ago, hallam said:

The quality of the posts whining about the show has really declined this season. I am very disappointed in them.

I just realized something interesting. If you rearrange the letters in 'hallam' it spells Benioff!

[Darkstream]

2 hours ago, hallam said:

The quality of the posts whining about the show has really declined this season. I am very disappointed in them.

Because getting stabbed wasn't part of the plan.

Arya made plan A, to lure the waif back to her lair and defeat her in the dark. After that plan failed she was forced to seek help from Lady Crane and then make a much longer run across the city. Plan B worked.

I think the whiners are making a fundamental error. Lets say the Waif got the blind girl training. Has the show told us that she was any good at it? Has the show shown the Waif beating Arya on an occasion when they were both blind? 

No, no and nopety-nope.

What the show has consistently shown us is that Arya is smarter than the Waif. So given that she knows the types of fight each is likely to win, she sets up a situation in which she either has an advantage over the Waif or the advantage of the Waif is minimized. 

Arya doesn't just have the benefit of knowing how to fight in the dark, she expects to be fighting in the dark. Cutting the candle gives Arya a few seconds of surprise and she is able to dispatch the Waif before she has a chance to analyze the situation.

Bottom line is that Arya is cleverer than the whiners.

You see, if the show needs someone like you to go on a forum and make up a bunch of stuff out of thin air in order for it to make sense (which it still doesn't, even with your honey potting) then that show has failed in telling a proper story. 

You're explanations are as unbelievable as a young girl who should be dead, or at the very least, incapacitated for months, sprinting across a city doing acrobatics, and then killing an elite assassin in one on one combat. 

[ilikethesebooks]

34 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Good storytelling doesn't work like that.  You don't start at the end and work backwards.  She was better because she won.  

There is NOTHING IN THE SHOW that supports the idea that Bobcut would or could or should lose to Arya, who couldn't beat her when she was without her stick!!!  So, how could she possibly beat her, outside of going cartoon Superhero, when she's seriously wounded in the abdomen which would limit her movement, if she hadn't turned into a totally unrealistic super hero chick who is cured of a severe stabbing one day later.

It was a totally unrealistic, pulled from The Avengers/Superman/Batman/pick your comic hero, that is out of place in the gritty realistic world that is supposed to be GOT. And that is why it was received so poorly.  Not just by the handful of ranters on this web site, but by all kinds of people, critics, show only watchers who thought it was terrible for all the same reasons.

 

You mean besides the part where she beats the waif finally when she is blinded (and the waif can see) right and then recreates the blindness aspect putting the waif, who already lost to her with eyesight, at a even greater disadvantage ?

[Cas Stark]

13 minutes ago, ilikethesebooks said:

You mean besides the part where she beats the waif finally when she is blinded (and the waif can see) right and then recreates the blindness aspect putting the waif, who already lost to her with eyesight, at a even greater disadvantage ?

you mean that one time that she was able to block a blow from Bobcut, who then looks mad and walks away?  Is that what is called "beating her"?

[ilikethesebooks]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

you mean that one time that she was able to block a blow from Bobcut, who then looks mad and walks away?  Is that what is called "beating her"?

Yes, that is what is called beating her or at the very least it is a counter point to the statement " There is NOTHING IN THE SHOW that supports the idea that Bobcut would or could or should lose to Ary "

[Jcoz]

23 minutes ago, ilikethesebooks said:

You mean besides the part where she beats the waif finally when she is blinded (and the waif can see) right and then recreates the blindness aspect putting the waif, who already lost to her with eyesight, at a even greater disadvantage ?

You mean the single blow she blocks? I guess that is their intent, but I'm pretty sure there is a scene after that blocked single blow where the Waif beats the tar out of her again, I could be remembering incorrectly, but in my mind I thought that was supposed to be a turning point in the training and remember being disappointed when Arya gets thrashed in the next session.

[Cas Stark]

10 minutes ago, ilikethesebooks said:

Yes, that is what is called beating her or at the very least it is a counter point to the statement " There is NOTHING IN THE SHOW that supports the idea that Bobcut would or could or should lose to Ary "

She doesn't lose to her.  Arya doesn't ever beat her or even hit her with the stick.  She blocks a shot. One shot. I'm not sure that could even be considered a draw, certainly not a win.   So, IMO the point stands.  Of course, the show could have had Arya actually beat her, and hit her, knock her down.  But, I suppose they thought it would be more shocking that she loses and loses and loses and then, after her massive injury, wins.  

 It might have been interesting if instead of killing her in the dark in a fight that she shouldn't have won, Arya would have used her smarts against Bobcut, even using her irrational hatred against her....but the show can't be bothered with something that intricate, LOL.  What you see is what you get.

[Jcoz]

10 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

She doesn't lose to her.  Arya doesn't ever beat her or even hit her with the stick.  She blocks a shot. One shot. I'm not sure that could even be considered a draw, certainly not a win.   So, IMO the point stands.  Of course, the show could have had Arya actually beat her, and hit her, knock her down.  But, I suppose they thought it would be more shocking that she loses and loses and loses and then, after her massive injury, wins.  

 It might have been interesting if instead of killing her in the dark in a fight that she shouldn't have won, Arya would have used her smarts against Bobcut, even using her irrational hatred against her....but the show can't be bothered with something that intricate, LOL.  What you see is what you get.

Yah this is what I thought made the most sense. Arya would have to out think her, but then, once you saw her leisurely stroll through Bravos en route to getting gut stabbed multiple times, you cant really expect Arya to beat the waif with her brain either, lol.

There really was absolutely no reason to expect Arya to beat her without the intervention of someone else, like Jaquen, which is probably why people were specilating as such before this episode. 

[Desert Fox]

 Ayra had a better weapon. She was recently trained in fighting blind. There is no real indication that faceless man training involves knife fighting or sword fighting. They seem to operate using stealth, surprise, and subterfuge. 

The show gives you no reason to think that the wait is so much better than ayra that she'd win a sword fight with only a knife if all else was equal. The wait seems to be better at that stick fighting but that's seems to be more of a martial arts thing instead of actual fight training. 

The stabbing not being fatal is probably a little bit of suspension of disbelief. But if that slash was very shallow and the two stabs hit ribs instead of organs, then her ability to run and jump with adrenaline isn't too bad. 

The big problem most shownly people I've talked to had is that the whole plot line is a waste. Two full seasons training to be an assassin and she doesn't become one. I sort of agree but also think her taking back up the identify of Arya Stark is a bigger deal than most appreciate.

I also suspect her TWOW plot will be fairly similar in the circular nature. Ok probably no action scene where the Waif beats her out of the no one gang. But I suspect she'll relealize she doesn't want to be no one and just goes back to westeros. Hell I sorta think the end of the Mercy chapter is where it happens. Hopefully GRRM has something good planned for the rest of TWOW. Cause I think it'll be just as bad as the show if she sticks around too long post mercy chapter. 

[Ser Hyle]

43 minutes ago, ilikethesebooks said:

You mean besides the part where she beats the waif finally when she is blinded (and the waif can see) right and then recreates the blindness aspect putting the waif, who already lost to her with eyesight, at a even greater disadvantage ?

edit: NM, my response was already made multiple times.

[Jcoz]

3 minutes ago, Desert Fox said:

The big problem most shownly people I've talked to had is that the whole plot line is a waste. Two full seasons training to be an assassin and she doesn't become one. I sort of agree but also think her taking back up the identify of Arya Stark is a bigger deal than most appreciate.

I also suspect her TWOW plot will be fairly similar in the circular nature. Ok probably no action scene where the Waif beats her out of the no one gang. But I suspect she'll relealize she doesn't want to be no one and just goes back to westeros. Hell I sorta think the end of the Mercy chapter is where it happens. Hopefully GRRM has something good planned for the rest of TWOW. Cause I think it'll be just as bad as the show if she sticks around too long post mercy chapter. 

I think that is valid criticism, the arc seems to end up with one main purpose, Arya regaining her Stark identity, and overall I just dont think they did a good job with it. From the crawling speed of it to the Waifs over the top emotional interactions with Arya to the basically ridiculous conclusion of Arya vs Waif the last two episodes. 

There were some good moments and I dont mind the final scene with Jaquan, and I think most people are just happy to see the conclusion of that arc just to be done with it at this point.

[Cas Stark]

7 minutes ago, Desert Fox said:

 Ayra had a better weapon. She was recently trained in fighting blind. There is no real indication that faceless man training involves knife fighting or sword fighting. They seem to operate using stealth, surprise, and subterfuge. 

The show gives you no reason to think that the wait is so much better than ayra that she'd win a sword fight with only a knife if all else was equal. The wait seems to be better at that stick fighting but that's seems to be more of a martial arts thing instead of actual fight training. 

The stabbing not being fatal is probably a little bit of suspension of disbelief. But if that slash was very shallow and the two stabs hit ribs instead of organs, then her ability to run and jump with adrenaline isn't too bad. 

The big problem most shownly people I've talked to had is that the whole plot line is a waste. Two full seasons training to be an assassin and she doesn't become one. I sort of agree but also think her taking back up the identify of Arya Stark is a bigger deal than most appreciate.

I also suspect her TWOW plot will be fairly similar in the circular nature. Ok probably no action scene where the Waif beats her out of the no one gang. But I suspect she'll relealize she doesn't want to be no one and just goes back to westeros. Hell I sorta think the end of the Mercy chapter is where it happens. Hopefully GRRM has something good planned for the rest of TWOW. Cause I think it'll be just as bad as the show if she sticks around too long post mercy chapter. 

Did show only people really think she was going to become 'no one' give up her personal identity and become a FM with no goals or agenda, forget about Winterfell?  Is that what they were hoping would happen?

I have to say, that seems a poor understanding of the story. 

 

[Neffaria]

 

3 hours ago, hallam said:

The quality of the posts whining about the show has really declined this season. I am very disappointed in them.

Because getting stabbed wasn't part of the plan.

Arya made plan A, to lure the waif back to her lair and defeat her in the dark. After that plan failed she was forced to seek help from Lady Crane and then make a much longer run across the city. Plan B worked.

I think the whiners are making a fundamental error. Lets say the Waif got the blind girl training. Has the show told us that she was any good at it? Has the show shown the Waif beating Arya on an occasion when they were both blind? 

No, no and nopety-nope.

What the show has consistently shown us is that Arya is smarter than the Waif. So given that she knows the types of fight each is likely to win, she sets up a situation in which she either has an advantage over the Waif or the advantage of the Waif is minimized. 

Arya doesn't just have the benefit of knowing how to fight in the dark, she expects to be fighting in the dark. Cutting the candle gives Arya a few seconds of surprise and she is able to dispatch the Waif before she has a chance to analyze the situation.

Bottom line is that Arya is cleverer than the whiners.

 

2

 

I would argue that the quality of the posts defending the writers has gotten worse, and far more fanboy/girl as the show has progressed. When the show first came out the vitriol that was spewed towards the writers was far more "but thats not how GRRM did it, who is that new character that isnt in the books, why did this change. Lately as the show has progressed, and especially this season, I have seen a lot of critiques discussing problems viewers have with a number of things like: plot armour, deus ex machina, lazy plotting, implausible character choice, conspicuous coincidence, inconsistent time flow etc etc etc. discussing actual writing flaws, not just "oh i didnt like it" (to be fair I still see a lot of these, but thats the nature of art, people will always dislike certain aspects and love others, and often disagree). I see a lot of people telling us what they think happened to explain these writing flaws, but very few pointing out where the author has specifically supported/ foreshadowed.

to the argument at hand, I havent seen many places where Arya has been shown to be more clever than the waif.

the failure of plan A I would call implausible because the character we know as Arya has never shown herself to be unobservant and trusting of strangers (even before Neds beheading, before she had a who -am-I crisis, before she was on the run, back when she felt safe). her openness to the old lady is something that Arya would never do. she is incredibly observant, doesnt like people in her personal space. It seems odd that she allows the old lady within an arms reach of her. And I would say that the writers have her allow this because they need her to in order further the plot. that is shoddy writing. they could have done any number of simple things had arya take a step back in distrust at the old woman, who is suddenly agile and takes a swipe. very simple to do, and still in character - it would still fulfill the concept that plan A must fail.

But that begs the question: why? why did plan A have to fail? what did we gain by it failing? In my opinion, it served no purpose to the story, sure we saw lady crane again, we saw her die, neither were necessary nor relevant. From where I was sitting it seemed to be used to shock viewers, cause a cliffhanger and create "stir" (which it did) and yet it did nothing for the story. To me that makes it shoddy writing because it only serves to further the "HBO Business" of GoT not further the story itself. Awesome writing in a TV series should serve both,