chris1994

Heraldry and correct blazons in the Wiki

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Hey everybody,

so I've started this thread because I'm a bit of a blazon nerd and it's just so annoying to see that so many things in the wiki are just great but when it comes to blazons of House sigils... There is just too much inconsistency and there are too many errors and too many House sigils that still need to be blazoned properly. So I will gradually comb through all the known House sigils and when in my opinion necessary, correct them and post them here, open for discussion. I'm talking specifically about the information box under the House sigil on the right side of the articles.

So first off, we would have to agree on proper formatting. To cite one House, where everything is done correctly: House Frey. There we have an English description as given to us by the books or The Citadel followed by the correct blazon in (parentheses and Italic). To remain consistent throughout the wiki, I propose doing this everywhere, with every House. However, if that's the only problem with the article (like House Beesbury, where the blazon is correct, but the said formatting still needs to be applied) I will not post these here. I would invite the editors to correct these themselves.

Second, for those of you that know a bit about heraldry; GRRM clearly doesn't follow the rules of classic heraldry. How his idea of heraldry differs from classic heraldry is explained very well here. So going by that logic, I see no reason why not to include unusual tinctures.
For example, brown and orange have, up to recent times, always been quite unusual tinctures and were, when used, seldom differentiated, and both blazoned as "tenné". Nowadays "tenné" is the accepted blazon for heraldic orange, whereas brown as a true heraldic tincture would be blazoned "brunâtre". So that's what I'm going to do.
In the same fashion, I will use "rose" for pink, "carnation" for flesh colour and also accept "bronze" as a tincture different from "tenné" or "brunâtre" or "gules". In a few cases, there will be silver on white, or vice versa, which poses a bit of a problem because I am all in favor of still blazoning white and silver as "argent". So in these few cases, I will accept "white" as a tincture in its own right to differentiate from silver. Since grey-green is used multiple times and has already on occasion been blazoned "vert-cendrée", I've decided to adopt that.

So, coming soon, a list of the blazons of the Houses in the North which need to be corrected.

Edited by chris1994
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So here goes, Houses in the North. I've decided doing this region by region, to have a bit of a system. So I would really like for those of you that understand a little something of blazoning to read this list through and ask questions, offer different suggestions if you think it necessary and so on. Just to be clear, I've only included the Houses whose sigils have, up until now, been blazoned incorrectly or not at all, so this is not a complete list of all the House sigils in the North.

·         House Bolton: A red flayed man on pink strewn with red drops (Rose gouttée-de-sang, a flayed man gules)

·         House Burley: A white knife in a blue pile on white (Argent, on a pile azure a knife of the field)

·         House Cassel: Ten white wolves’ heads, 4-3-2-1, on grey with a black border (Cendrée, ten wolves’ heads 4-3-2-1 argent within a bordure sable)

·         House Cerwyn: A black battle-axe on silver (Argent, a battle-axe sable)

·    House Condon: An eagle's head between crossed tridents, red on white (Argent, between two tridents saltirwise an eagle’s head gules)

·         House Dustin: Two rusted longaxes with black shafts crossed, a black crown between their points, on yellow (Or, between two longaxes saltirewise rusted proper shafted sable a crown of the last)

·         House Flint of Widow’s Watch: A blue field strewn with whitecaps, on a yellow chief with crested line a pair of blue eyes  (Azure semé of whitecaps argent, on a chief wavy crested or two eyes of the second irised of the first and pupiled sable)

·         House Forrester (Telltale): A white ironwood tree with a black sword on it, pointing down, on a black field (Sable, on an ironwood argent a sword palewise to base of the field)

House Hornwood: A brown bullmoose with black antlers on orange (Tenné, a bullmoose brunâtre attired sable)

·         House Ironsmith: A black sword upright between four black horseshoes on gold, a grey-green border (Or, between four horseshoes a sword erect sable all within a bordure vert-cendrée)

·         House Knott: A brown fret on white (Argent, a fret brunâtre)

·         House Lake: Seven pommes, 2-2-2-1, green on brown (Brunâtre, seven pommes 2-2-2-1)

·         House Liddle: Per pale white and green, a fir tree line between, three brown pinecones on the white (Per pale sapiné argent and vert, in dexter three pinecones brunâtre)

·         House Lightfoot: A line of white footprints in bend sinister, on dark brown (Brunâtre, a trail of footprints bendwise sinister argent)

·         House Locke: Two bronze keys crossed on an white pale on purple (Purpure, on a pale argent two keys saltirewise bronze)

·         House Manderly: A white merman with dark green hair, beard and tail, carrying a black trident, over a blue-green field (Aquamarine, a merman argent crined, bearded and queued vert, carrying a trident sable)

·         House Marsh: 10 frogs, 4-3-2-1, green on yellow (Or, ten frogs 4-3-2-1 vert)

·         House Moss: A bend orange on vairy grey and green (Vairy cendrée and vert, a bend tenné)

·         House Norrey: Six green thistles, 3-2-1, on yellow (Or, six thistles 3-2-1 vert)

·         House Poole: A blue plate on white, with a grey tressure (Argent, a hurt within a tressure cendrée)

·         House Reed: A black lizard-lion on grey-green (Vert-cendrée, a lizard-lion sable)

        House Rywell: A black horse's head, eyes and mane red, on bronze within a black engrailed border (Bronze, a horse's head sable orbed and maned gules within a bordure engrailed of the second)

·         House Slate: Pale grey, a double tressure white (Cendrée, a double tressure argent)

·         House Stark: A running grey direwolf, on an ice-white field (Argent, a direwolf courant cendrée)

·         House Stane: A driftwood tree, bare and brown, on pale green (Vert, a driftwood tree blasted brunâtre)

·         House Stout: Chevronny russet and gold (Chevronny brunâtre and or)

·         House Tallhart: Three sentinel trees, green on brown (Brunâtre, three sentinel trees vert)

·         House Thenn: A bronze disk surrounded with red flames on a white field (Argent, a roundel bronze inflamed gules)

·         House Umber: A roaring giant, brown-haired and wearing a skin, with broken silver chains, on flame-red (Gules, a giant roaring brunâtre habited with a skin proper wearing chains broken argent)

·         House Waterman: Brown crossed oars on white, between a pair of blue flaunches (Argent, between two flaunches azure as many oars saltirewise brunâtre)

·         House Whitehill: A white pile inverted on indigo, an arch of 4-pointed stars above (Purpure, above a pile inverted mullets of four points in fess enarched argent)

·         House Woolfield: Three woolsacks, white on purple, a white border (Purpure, three woolsacks within a bordure argent)

·         House Wull: Three wooden buckets, brown on blue, with a border of grey and white checks (Azure, three wooden buckets brunâtre within a bordure chequy cendrée and argent)

 

Edited by chris1994

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A question, this list of northern houses you posted, is it only the description that needs editing, or also the images?

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24 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

A question, this list of northern houses you posted, is it only the description that needs editing, or also the images?

No, I only concern myself with the descriptions. The pictures are generally quite well done anyway, IMO. Also note that these blazons are not based on the pictures at all. Ofttimes, the descriptions given to us by the books or The Citadel are a little vague, open to interpretation concerning things like the positions of animals on the coat of arms (i.e. walking or standing or sitting and so on), so the artist who designs the actual shield just has to make a decision. It would be wrong however to include that decision afterwards in the description, but it has happened many times on the wiki, so I try to avoid that too.

Coming soon: The Iron Islands

Edited by chris1994

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Okay here we are, the Iron Islands. There are not as many Houses as in the North but they were quite a project anyway because some of the Houses have some quite unusual sigils that are hard to blazon like Houses Farwynd, Kenning and Sunderly. As before, I would be thankful for feedback and hope that I'm not wasting my time and some of the editors actually apply these changes someday ;)

·         House Botley: A shoal of silver fish on pale green (Vert semé of fishes argent)

·         House Farwynd of the Lonely Light: Per fesse: below a black sea with crested line, a black longship, outlined against the setting sun, dark red on orange (Per fess wavy crested tenné and sable, in chief on a demi-guze per fess issuant from the division a longship sailing upon the division of the second)

·         House Greyiron: The sea king's head, white with dark green seaweed beard and hair, a black crown on a grey field (Cendrée, the sea king’s head argent bearded and crined with seaweed vert crowned sable)

·         House Harlaw of Grey Garden: Quarterly, a silver scythe on black, a peacock on cream (Quarterly, first and fourth sable, a scythe argent, second and third carnation, a peacock in his pride proper)

·         House Harlaw of Harlaw Hall: Per bend black and silver, two scythes counterchanged (Per bend sable and argent, two scythes counterchanged)

·         House Harlaw of Harridan Hill: A silver scythe on a pale blue field (Bleu celeste, a scythe argent)

·         House Harlaw of the Tower of Glimmering: A silver scythe on black within an embattled silver border (Sable, a scythe within a bordure embattled argent)

·         House Kenning: The storm god's cloudly hand, pale grey, yellow lightning flashing from the fingertips, on black (Sable, the storm god’s hand nebuly cendrée, issuant from its fingertips lightning bolts or)

·         House Merlyn: Twining waterspouts, green on white (Argent, waterspouts intertwining vert)

·         House Myre: 10 nooses, 4-3-2-1, black on white with a border of blood (Argent, ten nooses 4-3-2-1 sable within a bordure sanguine)

·         House Orkwood: Dark green pines strewn closely together on yellow (Or semé of pines vert)

·         House Sparr: Oak saltire on blue (Azure, a saltire brunâtre)

·         House Stonehouse: A black brazier on a grey masonry field (Cendrée masoned proper, a brazier sable)

·         House Stonetree: A bare stone tree, grey on black (Sable, a stone tree blasted cendrée)

·         House Sunderly:  A drowned man, pink and pale, floating upright in a blue-green sea, his hair streaming upwards, as fish nibble at his limbs (Aquamarine, a drowned man erect carnation,  hair to chief, fishes proper nibbling at his limbs)

·         House Tawney: A scourge of nettles, red and black, on white (Argent, a scourge sable lashed with nettles gules)

House Wynch: A bloody moon on purple (Purpure, a moon proper tipped sanguine)

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On 6-6-2016 at 2:16 PM, chris1994 said:

So here goes, Houses in the North. I've decided doing this region by region, to have a bit of a system. So I would really like for those of you that understand a little something of blazoning to read this list through and ask questions, offer different suggestions if you think it necessary and so on. Just to be clear, I've only included the Houses whose sigils have, up until now, been blazoned incorrectly or not at all, so this is not a complete list of all the House sigils in the North.

·         House Bolton: A red flayed man on pink strewn with red drops (Rose gouttée-de-sang, a flayed man gules)

·         House Burley: A white knife in a blue pile on white (Argent, on a pile azure a knife of the field)

·         House Cassel: Ten white wolves’ heads, 4-3-2-1, on grey with a black border (Cendrée, ten wolves’ heads 4-3-2-1 argent within a bordure sable)

·         House Cerwyn: A black battle-axe on silver (Argent, a battle-axe sable)

·    House Condon: An eagle's head between crossed tridents, red on white (Argent, between two tridents saltirwise an eagle’s head gules)

·         House Dustin: Two rusted longaxes with black shafts crossed, a black crown between their points, on yellow (Or, between two longaxes saltirewise rusted proper shafted sable a crown of the last)

·         House Flint of Widow’s Watch: A blue field strewn with whitecaps, on a yellow chief with crested line a pair of blue eyes  (Azure semé of whitecaps argent, on a chief wavy crested or two eyes of the second irised of the first and pupiled sable)

·         House Forrester (Telltale): A white ironwood tree with a black sword on it, pointing down, on a black field (Sable, on an ironwood argent a sword palewise to base of the field)

House Hornwood: A brown bullmoose with black antlers on orange (Tenné, a bullmoose brunâtre attired sable)

·         House Ironsmith: A black sword upright between four black horseshoes on gold, a grey-green border (Or, between four horseshoes a sword erect sable all within a bordure vert-cendrée)

·         House Knott: A brown fret on white (Argent, a fret brunâtre)

·         House Lake: Seven pommes, 2-2-2-1, green on brown (Brunâtre, seven pommes 2-2-2-1)

·         House Liddle: Per pale white and green, a fir tree line between, three brown pinecones on the white (Per pale sapiné argent and vert, in dexter three pinecones brunâtre)

·         House Lightfoot: A line of white footprints in bend sinister, on dark brown (Brunâtre, a trail of footprints bendwise sinister argent)

·         House Locke: Two bronze keys crossed on an white pale on purple (Purpure, on a pale argent two keys saltirewise bronze)

·         House Manderly: A white merman with dark green hair, beard and tail, carrying a black trident, over a blue-green field (Aquamarine, a merman argent crined, bearded and queued vert, carrying a trident sable)

·         House Marsh: 10 frogs, 4-3-2-1, green on yellow (Or, ten frogs 4-3-2-1 vert)

·         House Moss: A bend orange on vairy grey and green (Vairy cendrée and vert, a bend tenné)

·         House Norrey: Six green thistles, 3-2-1, on yellow (Or, six thistles 3-2-1 vert)

·         House Poole: A blue plate on white, with a grey tressure (Argent, a hurt within a tressure cendrée)

·         House Reed: A black lizard-lion on grey-green (Vert-cendrée, a lizard-lion sable)

        House Rywell: A black horse's head, eyes and mane red, on bronze within a black engrailed border (Bronze, a horse's head sable orbed and maned gules within a bordure engrailed of the second)

·         House Slate: Pale grey, a double tressure white (Cendrée, a double tressure argent)

·         House Stark: A running grey direwolf, on an ice-white field (Argent, a direwolf courant cendrée)

·         House Stane: A driftwood tree, bare and brown, on pale green (Vert, a driftwood tree blasted brunâtre)

·         House Stout: Chevronny russet and gold (Chevronny brunâtre and or)

·         House Tallhart: Three sentinel trees, green on brown (Brunâtre, three sentinel trees vert)

·         House Thenn: A bronze disk surrounded with red flames on a white field (Argent, a roundel bronze inflamed gules)

·         House Umber: A roaring giant, brown-haired and wearing a skin, with broken silver chains, on flame-red (Gules, a giant roaring brunâtre habited with a skin proper wearing chains broken argent)

·         House Waterman: Brown crossed oars on white, between a pair of blue flaunches (Argent, between two flaunches azure as many oars saltirewise brunâtre)

·         House Whitehill: A white pile inverted on indigo, an arch of 4-pointed stars above (Purpure, above a pile inverted mullets of four points in fess enarched argent)

·         House Woolfield: Three woolsacks, white on purple, a white border (Purpure, three woolsacks within a bordure argent)

·         House Wull: Three wooden buckets, brown on blue, with a border of grey and white checks (Azure, three wooden buckets brunâtre within a bordure chequy cendrée and argent)

 

All of these have been updated.

Why is House Flint of Flint's Finger not included in this list? :)

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4 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

All of these have been updated.

Why is House Flint of Flint's Finger not included in this list? :)

Well like I said, those that have already been blazoned correctly, and the only problem lies with the formatting, I will not mention. The blazon there is already perfect, so you would just have to include the English description which is given in the text (a grey stone hand upon a white inverted pall on paly black and grey) and put it in proper formatting.

Coming soon: the riverlands and the Vale. In these regions, Most House sigils are already correctly blazoned, so I will mainly correct minor errors and adjust some tinctures according to what I've said in the introduction.

NB: I have noticed that this formatting I described is generally done with a new paragraph for the formal blazoning, i.e.:

Two blue towers, united by a bridge, on a silver-grey field
(Cendrée, a bridge azure, at either end a tower of the same)

instead of 

Two blue towers, united by a bridge, on a silver-grey field (Cendrée, a bridge azure, at either end a tower of the same)

so to really do everything right, I propose also doing this everywhere.

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So now the riverlands and the Vale. As I've said, most of these don't need correcting and for those that do, the "errors" are mainly contained to the tinctures; I've corrected "carnation" to "rose", since carnation isn't the colour of true pink, but rather (caucasian) skin colour; I've adjusted "tenné" to "brunâtre" when a true brown was meant; and in the case of House Waxley, I included "white" as a tincture because it was just necessary to distinguish it from silver and grey.

The Riverlands

House Darry: A black plowman on a brown field (Brunâtre, a plowman sable)

House Erenford: A golden heron, beak and legs black, standing with a silver fish in its beak, on a pink field (Rose, a heron close or beaked and membered sable, clasped in its beak a fish argent)

House Haigh: A black pitchfork on a gold bend sinister, on a russet field (Brunâtre, on a bend sinister or a pitchfork sable)

House Mudd: A golden crown studded with emeralds, on a red-brown field (Brunâtre, an ancient crown or studded with emeralds proper)

House Roote: A brown double-headed horse on a field of wavy green and green (Wavy vert and vert, a horse bicapitated brunâtre)

House Smallwood: Six brown acorns, 3, 2, 1, on a yellow field (Or, six acorns 3-2-1 brunâtre)

The Vale

House Elesham: A black star between an inverted stone-coloured double-pile, on a pink field (Rose, between two piles inverted  cendrée a mullet sable)

House Hersy: A white winged chalice, on a pink field (Rose, a winged chalice displayed argent)

House Hunter: Five silver arrows, fanned, on brown (Brunâtre, a sheaf of five arrows, points to chief, argent)

House Melcolm: A rusty anchor, on a turquoise field, beneath yellow chief with three blue plates (Aquamarine, an anchor rusted proper, on a chief or three hurts)

House Moore: Three bronze spearheads, on a white field, within a bronze embattled border (Argent, three spearheads within a bordure embattled bronze)

House Pryor: A partial eclipse, black moon over yellow sun, on a dusty pink field (Rose, a sun-in-splendour or partially surmounted by a moon in her complement sable)

House Royce: Black iron studs on a bronze field, bordered with runes (Bronze pelleté, an orle of ancient runes sable)

House Royce of the Gates of the Moon: A black portcullis over a white crescent moon, on a purple field, bordered with runes on bronze (Purpure, a moon increscent argent surmounted by a portcullis sable, all within a bordure bronze charged with ancient runes of the third)

House Shett of Gulltown: Nine white seagulls on a field of brown (Brunâtre, nine seagulls argent)

House Waxley: Three candles, white with red flames, within silver candle holders, on a grey field within a black border (Cendrée, three candles white in holders argent inflamed gules, within a bordure sable)

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Awesome ;-) so now: the Westerlands and the Crownlands.

The Westerlands were pretty much like the Riverlands and the Vale, so mostly minor tincture corrections or removal of attitudes (descriptions of positions of animals) that aren't canon.

The Crownlands were however quite apalling in their current state ^^ thankfully there aren't that many Houses in the Crownlands, but there were some quite unusual ones where I'm reasonably satisfied with my blazon but could possibly be done better (like Houses Massey and Wendwater). Btw, I still invite anyone that knows about this stuff to criticize when necessary ;) these might not all be completely perfect or there may be other versions that could be more elegant, but anyway, here you are:

The Westerlands (minor errors like tinctures)

House Crakehall: A brindled black and white boar on a brown field (Brunâtre, a boar brindled sable and argent)

House Doggett: Per bend, a white unicorn on a green field, a black raven on a white field (Per bend vert and argent, in sinister chief a unicorn of the second, in dexter base a raven sable)

House Hamell: An erminois maunch, on a pink field with an erminois border (Rose, a maunch within a bordure erminois)

House Hawthorne: A ring of black thorns and a ring of pink flowers, interlocked, on a green field (Vert, an annulet of thorns sable embracing another of flowers rose)

House Hetherspoon: An oak spoon within a white cartouche, on a field of orange and black diamonds (Lozengy tenné and sable, on a cartouche argent an oak spoon proper)

House Lydden: A white badger on a per pale green and brown field (Per pale vert and brunâtre, a badger argent)

House Moreland: Per pale barry russet and green (Per pale barry brunâtre and vert)

House Myatt: A spotted yellow-and-black treecat, on a mud-brown field (Brunâtre, a treecat or pelleté)

House Serrett: A peacock in his pride, on a cream field (Carnation, a peacock in his pride proper)

House Turnberry: Nine strawberries on a white saltire, on a field of green and red vairy in point (Vairy-in-point vert and gules, on a saltire argent nine strawberries proper)

House Yarwyck: Two bronze halberds crossed between four red diamonds, on a white field (Argent, between four lozenges gules two halberds saltirewise bronze)

The Crownlands (many errors)

House Bar Emmon: A leaping blue swordfish on fretty silver on white (White fretty argent, a swordfish embowed azure)

House Brune: A bear paw, brown on white, within a double tressure brown (Argent, a bear's paw erased within a double tressure brunâtre)

House Byrch: Gryonny white and black quartered with a silver axe on a green field (Quarterly, first and fourth gyronny argent and sable, second and third vert, an axe of the first)

House Celtigar: Red crabs strewn on white (Argent, semé of crabs gules)

House Chelsted: Per bend green and white shield, a spiked mace and a silver dagger crossed (Per bend vert and white, a mace spiked palewise proper surmounted by a dagger fesswise argent)

House Edgerton: Quartered: black and white half-fusily, a wheel of flame on indigo (Quarterly, first and fourth half-fusily sable and argent, second and third purpure, a wheel inflamed proper)

House Follard: Gyronny of twelve red and white; on a gold canton, a two-peaked fool's cap of red and white (Gyronny of twelve gules and argent, on a canton or a fool’s cap peaked once of the first and once of the second)

House Harte: Three red hart's heads caboshed on a white bend on vair (Vair, on a bend argent three harts’ heads caboshed gules)

House Hayford: Green fetty over gold, a green pale wavy (Or fretty vert, a pale wavy of the second)

House Hollard: Barry red and pink, three golden crowns on a blue chief (Barry gules and rose, on a chief azure three crowns or)

House Langward: Per fess undy: A crown of white stars on burgundy above black (Per fess undy murrey and sable, in chief mullets arranged in a crown argent)

House Manning: A red sea lion between two black pallets on white (Argent, between two pallets sable a sea-lion gules)

House Massey: A triple spiral; red, green and blue, on white (Argent, a triple gurges gules, vert and azure)

House Pyle: A grey iron greathelm on white (Argent, an iron greathelm cendrée)

House Rollingford: Six roundels fountain, 3-2-1, on grey (Cendrée, six fountains 3-2-1)

House Rykker: Two black warhammers crossed on a white saltire on blue (Azure, on a saltire argent two warhammers saltirewise sable)

House Staunton: Two black wings upon a white fess on checkered black and grey (Chequy sable and cendrée, on a fess argent two wings of the first)

House Velaryon: A silver seahorse on sea green (Aquamarine, a seahorse argent)

House Wendwater: A green engrailed pall, inverted on white, dividing three trees, green, red and bare (Argent, a pall reversed engrailed vert between three trees proper, in chief dexter veined of the second, in chief sinister veined gules and in base blasted)

 

So coming next: the Reach. That will be the most extensive of the regions since there are just so many Houses and practically none of the blazons are in their correct form except for like really major Houses like Tyrell or Hightower or Florent. And even some of those I had to correct. So this could take a while but, you know, the weekend's here and I am going to have some time on my hands (except for Sunday night O_O)

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24 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

This might be for @aRanycsapat, but do we know if the Velaryons are represented with an actual seahorse or a mythological hippocampus (horse/fish hybrid)?

Yeah the problem is, we can't really know that but it doesn't change anything for the blazon. Normally, when just a "seahorse" ist mentioned in heraldry, it refers to the heraldic seahorse (half horse, half fish) and if you want the actual animal, you would have to qualify it as "seahorse (hippocampus)" in the blazon, so we could go by that logic.

Unfortunately we don't actually know what GRRM had in mind, even though I suspect the mythological seahorse since it is more common in heraldry but on the other hand, in the Citadel, they depict the actual animal, however, the wiki does depict half horse, half fish, so... IDK

But as I said, it doesn't change the blazon, IMO. GRRM gives us the info "seahorse" so we put "seahorse". What the artist that designs the sigil makes of that, is another matter. I've chosen not to include specifications that you can only see on the pictures themselves, including, like I said "attitudes" of animals, and so on. I guess you could say that since the descriptions on the Citadel are all right to use to tell us something about House sigils even though it's only "semi-canon", the pictures themselves would be all right too but why wasn't the textual description on the Citadel more precise in the first place then?

IDK, I just made the decision to not look at an artist's depiction to closely and only concern myself with textual descriptions so as to not lock myself down on an exact description only to see other interpretations that would in retrospect not fit with my too precise description.

Edited by chris1994

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So I've already finished the Reach. I guess it was a bit easier than some other regions because it was closer to real heraldry whith common charges and ordinaries which I guess is understable since the whole of the Reach is the home of chivalry in Westeros so my thinking is that they started with simplistic heraldry like it was usual in the Middle Ages and other regions like the North and Iron Islands which were for a long time organised in "clans" rather than proper Houses just later adopted this fashion but gave it their own touch (rather unusual) touch.

 

But before I post the Houses in the Reach, there is a problem we have to adress here regarding confusion about the direction of a "chevron" since I've run across that three times in the Reach. So for those of you that don't know this term, a chevron can be either a line of partition in a shield, in which a case you blazon it with "Party per chevron" (or simply "per chevron") or an actual ordinary, which can be like a charge, so having a different colour than the rest of the shield. If you still need clarification, just look at the article on Heraldry in the wiki, it's quite well explained unter "Variations of the field" and "Divisions of the field".

So the problem lies with the Citadel. Apparently, they don't know the difference between a chevron and an inverted chevron. A classic chevron would have it's peak oriented upwards, whereas an inverted chevron, is, well inverted, with the peak oriented downwards. But on the Citadel, there are four different Houses named having a chevron (so peak upwards) in their sigil, naimly from the Reach Houses Ashford and Ball, from the Westerlands House Foote and from the Stormlands House Horpe and all of them are depicted actually having an inverted chevron (so peak downwards). The only time they depict a sigil having something alike to an actual non-inverted chevron is in House Crane and in this case, they don't even name it chevron but "vee". 

So naturally, the wiki editors were stumped with how to proceed (as am I). In the Wiki, House Crane shows an arrangement in an inverted chevron different from the Citadel even though a "vee" is quite ambiguous and could well mean an actual chevron, Houses Foote and Ashford use the depiction and description from the Citadel (so naming a chevron but depicting an inverted chevron) but change it in the blazon to "reversed" and "inverted" chevron respectively, House Ball just keeps the depiction and description from the Citadel and isn't blazoned at all and House Horpe adopts the description from the Citadel with a chevron but changes the depiction so that it actually shows a non-inverted chevron and blazons it thusly.

 

So we can agree that this non-consistency is pretty confusing and I myself am not quite sure how to proceed here. So before I post my list of Houses from the Reach, I would like to know from some of the senior editors what they propose to do. I see 3 options here.

  1. We agree that both the description and the depiction found on the Citadel are canon which would mean that, in the case of Westerosi heraldry, a "chevron" is what would in real heraldry be an "inverted chevron" but still blazon it "inverted chevron" since up to this point, we have already tried to adopt what passes for heraldry in Westeros and fit it to traditional blazoning (like calling white and silver "argent" even though they seem to be different in Westeros whereas there simply is no actual white in traditional heraldry). So this has been done on the wiki in the cases of Houses Foote and Ashford
  2. We agree that only the description but not the depiction found on the Citadel is considered canon, so everytime a chevron is mentioned, we depict an actual chevron in the sigils for the Wiki with the peak upwards, contrary to the Citadel and are free to blazon it "chevron" in good conscience. This has been done on the wiki in the case of House Horpe.
  3. We agree, that in this case of the chevrons, only the depiction found on the Citadel is canon, so that we describe and blazon the sigil as having an inverted chevron and are then free to use the depiction from the Citadel.

So my favorite option is Number 2, because that was my modus operandi the whole time and then we wouldn't have a conflict between English description and formal blazon which really shouldn't happen. Number 1 could be alright but like I said, I don't want the description and the blazon to contradict each other. I don't personally like Number 3 at all since that just goes against all rules of blazoning (to use an image as a reference rather than a description of the image) but could be conceivable here since it may be possible that the inverted chevron depicted on the Citadel was what they actually had in mind for the sigils and they just unconsciously made a mistake with the description.

So please let me know what you think.

TL;DR: In the case of the heraldic ordinary of the "chevron", the Citadel describes a "chevron" but depicts an "inverted chevron". This has led to confusion and inconsistencies concerning the blazons on the Wiki. I've proposed three options to remedy this and would like your opinion on that.

 

Edited by chris1994

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I would say that option 1 is the only solution. Otherwise we get a discrepancy between the descriptions on the Wiki and the Citadel.

Edited to add: Considering the depiction on the Citadel as not being canon would be absolutely out of the question, just to make that clear.

Edited by Linda

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6 minutes ago, Linda said:

Edited to add: Considering the depiction on the Citadel as not being canon would be absolutely out of the question, just to make that clear.

Not least because GRRM personally vetted and approved most all of them. That said, sometimes he tweaks arms by the time they are actually published, so it's true that the book will always trump his heraldry notes.

Edited by aRanycsapat

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15 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

 

13 hours ago, Linda said:

I would say that option 1 is the only solution. Otherwise we get a discrepancy between the descriptions on the Wiki and the Citadel.

Edited to add: Considering the depiction on the Citadel as not being canon would be absolutely out of the question, just to make that clear.

 

13 hours ago, aRanycsapat said:

Not least because GRRM personally vetted and approved most all of them. That said, sometimes he tweaks arms by the time they are actually published, so it's true that the book will always trump his heraldry notes.

Okay, I guess this is pretty clear. Well I guess I just find it strange that even after this mistake had been pointed out to George by the Wiki editors who wanted to use an actual chevron in the depiction for House Ashford, he didn't correct his mistake on the Citadel, knowing that it could lead to confusion amongst hardcore heraldry fans... Well anyway, I can very well make my peace with this. So understanding from the comments that option 1 is the one (like already done for Houses Foote and Ashford), using the English description of "chevron", blazoning "chevron inverted" and depicting an inverted chevronI will now post my list of Houses from the Reach.

Note that I propose House Foote's "chevron reversed" to "chevron inverted" (even though I didn't mention that in my post with the Westerlands) since I personally can't think of another instance I've run across the term "reversed" in heraldry and I'm always for more consistency anyways, so using "inverted" in all instances. I also strongy propose changing the sigil from House Crane to a similar depiction used on the Citadel corresponding to an actual non-inverted chevron since we could by the same logic as before (that George is a bit unfamiliar with the term "chevron") argue that he wants an actual chevron when he says "vee" and also changing House Horpe's depiction to what we see on the Citadel. But depictions aren't quite my department, so I'll leave that up to the people more knowledgable in designing sigils.

So anyway, here we go:

House Ambrose: A yellow field strewn with red ants (Or, semé of ants gules)

 

House Appleton: Quarterly: An apple tree on yellow, a grey gatehouse on white (Quarterly, first and fourth or, an apple tree proper, second and third argent, a gatehouse cendrée)

 

House Ashford: A white sun-and-chevron on orange (Tenné, beneath a chevron inverted a sun-in-splendour argent)

 

House Ball: Three white plates upon a chevron red on a white field (Argent, on a chevron inverted gules three plates)

 

House Bridges: A black stone bridge with three arches upon a golden chief above three blue pallets on white (Argent, three pallets azure, on a chief or a stone bridge of three arches sable)

 

House Bushy: A green fess embattled on white (Argent, a fess embattled vert)

 

House Chester: A green hand on a gold escutcheon on a green field, a border of red rayonne (Vert, on an escutcheon or a hand of the field all within a bordure rayonny gules)

 

House Cordwayner: Black boots on field of green and gold diamonds (Lozengy vert and or, a pair of boots sable)

 

House Costayne: Quartered: a silver chalice on black, a black rose on gold (Quarterly, first and fourth sable, a chalice argent, second and third or, a rose of the first)

 

House Crane: A vee of golden cranes on pale blue (Bleu celeste, cranes in chevron or)

House Cuy: Six yellow flowers on blue (Azure, six flowers or)

House Dunn: Per pale black and pink, a countercharged two-headed pelican (Per pale sable and rose, a pelican bicapitated counterchanged)

House Florent: A red fox in a circle of blue flowers on ermine (Ermine, a fox gules within an annulet of flowers azure)

House Footly: A field of silver caltrops on black (Sable, semé of caltrops argent)

House Graceford: The Mother's face upon white pale wavy dividing a brown field (Brunâtre, on a pale wavy argent the Mother’s head caboshed proper)

House Graves: Green and white gyronny, a double-headed eagle counter-charged, gold beak and talons (Gyronny vert and argent, an eagle bicapitated counterchanged beaked and armed or)

House Grimm: An iron escutcheon with silver studs on a grey-green field strewn with longships proper (Vert-cendrée semé of longships proper, an escutcheon cendrée platé)

House Hastwyck: Barry olive and ivory (Barry vert and argent)

House Hewett: Oaken escutcheon studded with iron, a field bendy of undulating blue and white (Bendy undy azure and argent, an escutcheon brunâtre platé)

House Hightower: A white tower crowned with flames on smoke grey (Cendrée, a tower argent, beacon inflamed gules)

House Hunt: A brown deer, bound and slung on a pole, on white (Argent, on a pole fesswise proper a deer bound and slung brunâtre)

House Kidwell: Pale green ivy bendy on black masonry (Sable masoned proper bendy of ivy leaves vert)

House Leygood: Three black thunderbolts on orange (Tenné, three thunderbolts sable)

House Lowther: A silver dolphin on a blue-green field (Aquamarine, a dolphin argent)

House Lyberr: Per bend sinister: a grey cat's face on black, a brown jug on white (Per bend sinister, in chief dexter sable, a cat’s head caboshed cendrée, in base sinister argent, a jug brunâtre)

House Meadows: A border of flowers of many colors and varieties on green (Vert, an orle of flowers variegated)

House Merryweather: A golden horn of plenty spilling out apples, carrots, plums, onions, leeks, turnips, and fruits of many colors on a white field bordered in gold (Argent, a cornucopia or overflowing with apples, carrots, plums, onions, leeks, turnips and fruits variegated all proper within a bordure of the second)

House Middlebury: Quarterly, a black saltire on yellow, green and white diamonds (Quarterly, first and fourth or, a saltire sable, second and third lozengy vert and argent)

House Mullendore: Black-and-orange butterflies strewn over white (Argent, semé of butterflies sable and tenné)

House Norridge: A flight of flaming arrows rising bendwise on a blue field (Azure, a flight of arrows bendwise points to chief dexter inflamed proper)

House Oldflowers: Ten white hands on green, 4-3-2-1, beneath a red bend sinister (Vert, 10 hands 4-3-2-1 argent debruised by a bend sinister gules)

House Orme: Per fess: three golden harps on black, gold and silver bendy sinister (Per fess, in chief sable, three harps or, in base bendy sinister of the second and argent)

House Peake: Three black castles on orange (Tenné, three castles sable)

House Pommingham: A red pomegranate on white, a double tressure red (Argent, a pomegranate within a double tressure gules)

House Redding: A golden flagon on burgundy within a border of gold and white checks (Murrey, a flagon or within a bordure chequy of the second and argent)

House Rhysling: An oaken door banded with iron, in a grey stone doorway, on black masonry (Sable masoned proper, an door brunâtre banded cendrée within a stone doorway of the last)

House Risley: A black knight on a black rearing horse on white, bearing a golden lance and a white shield, upon which is seen the above in miniature (Argent, a knight mounted upon a horse forcené sable bearing a lance or and a shield of the field itself charged with the whole)

House Shermer: A field of copper nails on blue, a copper border rayonne (Azure semé of nails within a bordure rayonny copper)

House Sloane: Per pale, white stars strewn on indigo, an orange sun on yellow (Per pale, in dexter purpure semé of mullets argent, in sinister or, a sun-in-splendour tenné)

House Tyrell of Brightwater Keep: Two golden roses on a green field (Vert, two roses or)

House Uffering: Oak and iron paly, beneath a white chief with seven green hands (Paly brunâtre and cendrée, on a chief argent seven hands vert)

House Vyrwel: A silver wyvern within a red double tressure on sable (Sable, a wyvern argent within a double tressure gules)

House Westbrook: Two green bars gemmel on gold (Or, two bars-gemels vert)

House Willum: Three silver longswords crossed on black beneath a dragonbone skeleton on a white chief (Sable, three longswords crossed argent, on a chief of the second a dragonbone skeleton proper)

House Wythers: A grey squirrel on white with red border (Argent, a squirrel argent within a bordure gules)

Edited by chris1994

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The issue is that GRRM has described the Ashford chevron and made it pretty clear it was actually inverted... but it's still just a chevron in the text, and I don't think he's interested in having his publishers change it. So I think this is one of those places where Westeros heraldry does not match RL heraldry, much as George largely ignores the rules of tincture and so on.

Giving the plain language blazon as per GRRM would leave it in line with how heraldry works in the novels, while I suppose the proper heraldic language that you propose could indeed "correct" for it so that anyone familiar with heraldry in real life will know immediately how something should look based on its blazon.

Edited by aRanycsapat

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7 hours ago, aRanycsapat said:

The issue is that GRRM has described the Ashford chevron and made it pretty clear it was actually inverted... but it's still just a chevron in the text, and I don't think he's interested in having his publishers change it. So I think this is one of those places where Westeros heraldry does not match RL heraldry, much as George largely ignores the rules of tincture and so on.

Giving the plain language blazon as per GRRM would leave it in line with how heraldry works in the novels, while I suppose the proper heraldic language that you propose could indeed "correct" for it so that anyone familiar with heraldry in real life will know immediately how something should look based on its blazon.

Yeah that was my thought now as well, so I've worked with that, as you see in my proposals for Houses Ashford and Ball

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