Sansa saving Winterfell, wildlings and the northerners

[Future Null Infinity]

19 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Lol how would Sansa know what LF promised Cersei in KL while she was being raped nighly by Ramsay? Westeros weekly? Double lol at believing anything that comes out of LF's mouth. As for Ramsay they're officially allied! He gave them Sansa - wasn't that the whole point? I mean I'm not even projecting this on the character - this is what she has evidently considered and explicitly asks him about!

you are still distorting the reality, he never said to her that he is an ally of the boltons, he said to her 'go get your home'

19 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

I'm not saying she won't act emotionally - I'm saying she was stupid to put herself in that situation in the first place. Especially with her history of losing brain cells when exposed to LF she should have taken someone with her to provide emotional support in a triggering situation and ensure she makes smart decisions. If he's such an asshole why is she meeting him? Why is she letting him get away with it when she has every power over him?

but you said early that why she didn't make him an ally in mole's town and now you are seeing why she gone there to meet him?

19 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

ecause it's common sense. You don't need a talent for prophecy (and hello, they have  Mel in their corner - maybe she should have, you know,  asked someone for advice) to predict a perfectly foreseeable outcome of a situation where you go against an enemy that outnumbers you 2.5:1. It wasn't wise at all - she had him in her power and she failed to either use him and his influence to her advantage or neutralise him as a threat. She gained absolutely nothing from that meeting while LF walked away scot free and even managed to plant a seed of doubt between her and Jon. Cue their next interaction being a reversal of roles where it's she who needs to beg for forgiveness. 

when was LF a threat for Sansa, he said to her 'if you need me, you can contact me', and why you want Sansa to gain something from a man who gave her to a rapist?

[Future Null Infinity]

5 minutes ago, Jcoz said:

1. It wasnt a failure to see into the future, it was a failure to understand her predicament, and one which Davos pretty clearly summed up for her before they left. She rejected that counsil. 

she knows 'the north remembers' but the north is a traitor

5 minutes ago, Jcoz said:

2. I expect her to be open with the information that the Army was offered. Its not a terribly difficult request to comply with.

same old response : do you want her to go to Jon and say 'look brother, I met the man who gave me to the rapist and I nearly killed him', it's not gonna happen

7 minutes ago, Jcoz said:

3. Again, I'm blaming her for being naive.

and again, she will save jon's ass 

[Future Null Infinity]

10 minutes ago, Jcoz said:

My criticism is that she has been both naive and dishonest in this, not a hero saving the day from her dumb brother, which seems to be what you are suggesting.

Yes, I'm suggesting that Evil sansa will save Dumb Jon's ass

[Jcoz]

Just now, Future Null Infinity said:

she knows 'the north remembers' but the north is a traitor

same old response : do you want her to go to Jon and say 'look brother, I met the man who gave me to the rapist and I nearly killed him', it's not gonna happen

and again, she will save jon's ass 

She will save everyone from herself. Her demand to march on Winterfell with nothing but a name (which she doesnt even technically have) and Brienne. She is directly responsible for the exact predicament they are in. 

Tell me again how she has contributed to her own cause? 

She demanded they take winterfell and has put them in this exact predicament, you are damn right she better bail them out of it now by swallowing her pride. 

[Future Null Infinity]

5 minutes ago, Jcoz said:

She will save everyone from herself. Her demand to march on Winterfell with nothing but a name (which she doesnt even technically have) and Brienne. She is directly responsible for the exact predicament they are in.

she told him 'if you will not going with me, I'll go alone' 

5 minutes ago, Jcoz said:

Tell me again how she has contributed to her own cause? 

the knights of the Vale

5 minutes ago, Jcoz said:

She demanded they take winterfell and has put them in this exact predicament, you are damn right she better bail them out of it now by swallowing her pride

I have faith in her, she's stark and I have faith in the starks, they need some justice in the story

[Frejac]

3 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

And here is the difference between your perspective and mine : you see her endangering  everyone, I don't see her  endangering anyone, you see her not considering the consquences, I see her considering the consquences (she knows him better than anyone, she wrote to him : you shall be rewarded, she knew he will ask for something), you see her not consulting anyone, I see Jon is the first one who didn't consult anyone when he decided to attack ramsay with their ragtag army when she suggested going to house cerwyn, he put her in the corner so she acted, she don't want to lose against the boltons so she made a pact with satan, I started this thread to put my opinion that considering all the options they have to win against the boltons, LF is the only viable one, so she made it with a great sacrifice, now for the consequences, I don't know, we will see, but that not my point originally

I'm sorry, but what?

This is completely backwards.

Sansa was the first one who didn't consult anyone.  When she met Littlefinger in Mole's Town and rejected his offer.  And then failed to tell anyone.  And then lied about her source for the Riverrun information.

Besides, when Jon was saying they needed to attack, he was consulting with someone.  Sansa.  That entire conversation was them consulting with one another on how to proceed.

Then Sansa, once again in secret, sends a message to Littlefinger asking for help.  Only this time, she is in a much weaker position than when he first offered the Knights of the Vale, so whatever reward she'll have to give Littlefinger will be that much greater than if she had accepted his original offer.

1 hour ago, Future Null Infinity said:

please don't forget that LF promised Cersei that he will defeat Stannis or Ramsay in Winterfell, so Ramsay is the enemy of Baelish, let us don't start distorting realities here

he gave her to rapist, why do you think that she will not act emotionally? do want her to welcome him in open arms and say "man thanks, my rape was a joy, please can you lend me your army for one or two days?"

 

you are assuming things that are already contradictory with the show

How she will know? she's not Melisandre to see the future in the flames, and your statement is totally contradictory to all what you said, in Mole's town she didn't make him her allie nor her enemy, it was a wise move

it's was a wise move from her, and I blame Jon for taking the decision to attack ramsay by himself, he's going in suicide mission and he knew it, and she did what she did to save his ass and everyone else, he can blame her later but I don't think he will in position to criticize her because at the end she will save his ass

 

Again, no.

Not wise to write Littlefinger without consulting anyone else.

And it will most definitely be possible and absolutely needed that Jon criticize her.  Because she did not save his ass.  She put it in danger to begin with.

[Future Null Infinity]

2 minutes ago, Frejac said:

When she met Littlefinger in Mole's Town and rejected his offer.

same older response : do want her to welcome LF in open arms and say "man thanks, my rape was a joy, please can you lend me your army for one or two days?"

2 minutes ago, Frejac said:

Besides, when Jon was saying they needed to attack, he was consulting with someone.  Sansa.  That entire conversation was them consulting with one another on how to proceed.

re-watch the scene

3 minutes ago, Frejac said:

Then Sansa, once again in secret, sends a message to Littlefinger asking for help.  Only this time, she is in a much weaker position than when he first offered the Knights of the Vale, so whatever reward she'll have to give Littlefinger will be that much greater than if she had accepted his original offer.

it's her sacrifice to save Jon's ass

4 minutes ago, Frejac said:

And it will most definitely be possible and absolutely needed that Jon criticize her.  Because she did not save his ass.  She put it in danger to begin with

but she will save his ass and the wildlings asses

[Maid So Fair]

26 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

you are still distorting the reality, he never said to her that he is an ally of the boltons, he said to her 'go get your home'

but you said early that why she didn't make him an ally in mole's town and now you are seeing why she gone there to meet him?

when was LF a threat for Sansa, he said to her 'if you need me, you can contact me', and why you want Sansa to gain something from a man who gave her to a rapist?

Because actions speak louder than words. Whatever BS excuse he may offer for his actions, the fact remains that he, as you yourself said, sold her to her rapist. Why should she give a shit about what he said while doing so? Literally the first question out of her mount is - did you know about Ramsay?

I'm not sure what your question is?

IDK when he sold her to the Boltons to be raped and abused - or is that not threatening enough? Because he offered her something she desperately needs. He's been using her from the moment he laid eyes on her - why not use him in turn? If she had a rock solid plan that didn't involve him that would be one thing but she doesnt, as evidenced by the fact she ends up asking for his help anyway. And if she decided that he wasn't any use to her/could t be trusted she should have had him killed for his crimes and also to free up her hands. That way se can at least try to get the Vale army on her own.

When has LF ever done anything selfless?

[Jcoz]

7 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

she told him 'if you will not going with me, I'll go alone' 

the knights of the Vale

I have faith in her, she's stark and I have faith in the starks, they need some justice in the story

That's an ultimatum, which is in line with this seasons return to Season 1 Sansa, naive and privileged.

do they have the scripts online? I'll gladly pull every line from Sansa on this topic to post it and show exactly what her roll has been in this.

[Future Null Infinity]

7 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Because actions speak louder than words. Whatever BS excuse he may offer for his actions, the fact remains that he, as you yourself said, sold her to her rapist. Why should she give a shit about what he said while doing so? Literally the first question out of her mount is - did you know about Ramsay?

and then what she said? she said 'you gave me to a monster', she knew he's bullshiting

7 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Because he offered her something she desperately needs. He's been using her from the moment he laid eyes on her - why not use him in turn? If she had a rough solid plan that didn't involve him that would be one thing but she doesnt, as evidenced by the fact she ends up asking for his help anyway. he if she decided that 

because she don't want to hang out the the man who gave her to a rapist and she have faith in the north until the north betrays her

[Future Null Infinity]

5 minutes ago, Jcoz said:

That's an ultimatum, which is in line with this seasons return to Season 1 Sansa, naive and privileged.

do they have the scripts online? I'll gladly pull every line from Sansa on this topic to post it and show exactly what her roll has been in this.

Sorry, I didn't understand anything from what you wrote

[Maid So Fair]

3 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

and then what she said? she said 'you gave me to a monster', she knew he's bullshiting

because she don't want to hang out the the man who gave her to a rapist and she have faith in the north until the north betray her

Sorry my tablet played up and posted too soon. See the edited post.

If she knows he's bulshitting and that he's an asshole that sold her out, why is she letting him live to plot against her another day? Killing him gets her rid of a dangerous enemy and gives her a more than decent shot at getting a real army, one that is predisposed to aid her. Win win. Having faith is nice but it doesn't win battles. Smart pragmatic decisions do.

 

[Frejac]

7 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

same older response : do want her to welcome LF in open arms and say "man thanks, my rape was a joy, please can you lend me your army for one or two days?"

re-watch the scene

it's her sacrifice to save Jon's ass

but she will save his ass and the wildlings asses

First, I want her to talk to people about Littlefinger's offer.  Besides, it was an offer, she didn't even need to ask for the army.  She just needed to say yes.

Second, I don't need to re-watch anything.  They were consulting with each other.  They were talking about what to do next.  Jon says they need to attack.  Sansa says they need to go to more houses to try to get more men.  That's consulting.  Just because Jon is the one in the position to make the final decision here doesn't change that.  Using an example from elsewhere in Westeros, a king consults with his small council; he is not ruled by it.  Jon, in this situation, is the military leader, the king if you will.  He has the support of the largest chunk of their army and he has combat experience.  Sansa does not.

Third, her "sacrifice" may have the effect of saving Jon's ass, but what it is really doing is trying to mitigate the damage done by her earlier mistakes.

And finally, just because she will be the likely cause of the Vale winning the battle does not make her immune to criticism.  Her actions have put Jon and their army in the situation that they are in.  That makes a lot of the death that will happen her fault.  Saving the survivors does not, in any way, change that.

[Future Null Infinity]

Just now, Maid So Fair said:

Sorry my tablet played up and posted too soon. See the edited post.

not a problem 

1 minute ago, Maid So Fair said:

f she knows he's bulshitting and that he's an asshole that sold her out, why is she letting him live to plot against her another day? Killing him gets her rid of a dangerous enemy and gives her a more than decent shot at getting a real army, one that is predisposed to aid her. Win win. Having faith is nice but it doesn't win battles. Smart pragmatic decisions do.

she didn't kill him because he did said he didn't know about Ramsay, this point was the center of the 2015 sansa's rape controversy, how baelish didn't know about ramsay, the writers responded by telling that really he didn't know, so they put it in the show

[Maid So Fair]

8 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

not a problem 

she didn't kill him because he did said he didn't know about Ramsay, this point was the center of the 2015 sansa's rape controversy, how baelish didn't know about ramsay, the writers responded by telling that really he didn't know, so they put it in the show

See, this is the crux of the problem - either he knew or he didn't. Either he's her enemy  who is obviously BS her or an idiot  who made an honest mistake and is genuinely remorseful and trying to make amends. If it's the former, he deserves to die both for justice and because you don't leave an enemy loose behind your back. If it's the latter, there's no reason to reject his offer of real help in a desperate situation besides foolish pride. The problem is that Sandra can't make up her mind which one it is and so doesn't choose either sensible option. Instead, she opts to throw caution to the wind to just do nothing until forced to - except lie to the only people who are 100% on her side - to protect a man who pimped  her out. 

[Jcoz]

15 minutes ago, Frejac said:

First, I want her to talk to people about Littlefinger's offer.  Besides, it was an offer, she didn't even need to ask for the army.  She just needed to say yes.

Second, I don't need to re-watch anything.  They were consulting with each other.  They were talking about what to do next.  Jon says they need to attack.  Sansa says they need to go to more houses to try to get more men.  That's consulting.  Just because Jon is the one in the position to make the final decision here doesn't change that.  Using an example from elsewhere in Westeros, a king consults with his small council; he is not ruled by it.  Jon, in this situation, is the military leader, the king if you will.  He has the support of the largest chunk of their army and he has combat experience.  Sansa does not.

Third, her "sacrifice" may have the effect of saving Jon's ass, but what it is really doing is trying to mitigate the damage done by her earlier mistakes.

And finally, just because she will be the likely cause of the Vale winning the battle does not make her immune to criticism.  Her actions have put Jon and their army in the situation that they are in.  That makes a lot of the death that will happen her fault.  Saving the survivors does not, in any way, change that.

 Exactly. She's been a major factor in the predicament they are in, all she's doing by bringing in little finger now is taking a weaker position than she had in moles town, when the Army was offered to her. Instead now she's practically having to beg LF to come and promising a reward she should not have needed to offer.

you can also make a decent argument that had they come to glover with the army of the Vale in tow, that meeting could have gone better for them.

 

[Future Null Infinity]

5 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

See, this is the crux of the problem - either he knew or he didn't. Either he's her enemy  who is obviously BS her or an idiot  who made an honest mistake and is genuinely remorseful and trying to make amends. If it's the former, he deserves to die both for justice and because you don't leave an enemy loose behind your back. If it's the latter, there's no reason to reject his offer of real help in a desperate situation besides foolish pride. The problem is that Sandra can't make up her mind which one it is and so doesn't choose either sensible option. Instead, she opts to throw caution to the wind to just do nothing until forced to - except lie to the only people who are 100% on her side - to protect a man who pimped  her out. 

she make her mind about LF, she banished him, she's not lying to Jon and she's not protecting Baelish

[Jcoz]

12 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

she can't talk about it to jon, he will be angry about her just for going to meet the man who gave her to Ramsay

 

re-watch the scene, you are totally wrong,  she said "we need more man, if we go to house cerwyn to get their help", he interrupted her saying that they will attack immediately with the wildlings, he made an unilateral decision to go in suicide mission and she made an unilateral decision to save his ass

what earlier mistakes and what earlier damage? SHE DON'T OWE NOTHING TO JON 

He be glad, he better not criticise her, because from the spoilers, she will do even bigger sacrifice, she will not use her right as stark and she will give that right to a bastard/targaryen, so don't tell me about morality problems between Sansa and Jon  (brother and sister)

This is hilarious...she doesn't owe Jon anything? The only guy who has brought anything at all to the table in this? She owes him the courtesy of not lying to him, I'd say. 

And as to the first thing you said, about her reasons for lying, are complete assumptions, if not just patently wrong. Briene asked her why and she answers, and that's not her answer.

[Benedict Oathkeeper]

I have to say, Future Null Infinity, you do not seem to be able to take a rational view of Sansa's actions.  We all have favourites, I can understand that, but a defence of Sansa in this instance is illogical.  The broad concept of a coalition is that the individuals within that coalition (Jon, Tormund, Davos, Sansa) make decisions together to serve its purpose.  If you think your view is different to others within the coalition then it is incumbent upon you to persuade, cajole and convince your comrades. To act alone is arrogant and foolish.  It may still work out well for the Stark's and I do hope Sansa redeems herself, but, as things currently stand, she has behaved foolishly and even her sworn sword recognises that.

[Future Null Infinity]

1 minute ago, Jcoz said:

This is hilarious...she doesn't owe Jon anything?

Yes, she owe nothing to Jon, littlefinger is her problem not Jon's problem, why she should talk about it to Jon?