Author explains why book piracy is not a victimless crime

[TrackerNeil]

9 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I like how people keep insisting piracy helps sales eve though a bunch of authors have shown up in this thread and say that they don't.

I can only speak for myself, but I have no idea what drives sales. Sometimes a flurry of sales will follow a review or a promotional effort, and sometimes I'll rupture myself on promoting a book and get nothing for my efforts. I really wonder how anyone is certain that illegally downloading books helps sales.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

1 hour ago, TrackerNeil said:

I do feel gratified that someone has taken the time to read my work, but equally mystified that said person thought my work wasn't even worth $.99. There aren't many hours-long forms of entertainment that will cost you less than a dollar, right?

 

Your book was totally worth the money.

[john]

But a person who enjoys a book, after acquiring it through dubious means, has got to be of more merit, as far as the author's concerned, than the alternative which is a person who chooses not to buy the book. The first one's still a reader. That's exactly the relationship you want to create. That's got to be a little bit of compensation right there.

[Darth Richard II]

Right, except I've never actually heard that from an actual author.

[mgambino]

5 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Right, except I've never actually heard that from an actual author.

Hugh Howey has said something or other to that effect... but I don't recall if he backed it up in any way. Plus, it's pretty easy to dismiss the impact of piracy when you're selling millions of books and have a movie deal

[john]

16 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Right, except I've never actually heard that from an actual author.

You never heard an author saying they only care about sales either (well, i think Abercrombie said that on here but he's special).

It's one thing if a writer is relying on sales to make a living and/or keep writing. That sucks but publishing is a dicey business even if you experience zero piracy.

Piracy's not a total loss is my point. Just being optimistic here.

[Darth Richard II]

Yeah I'm not feeling very optimistic lately, although to be fair, I uh, usually don't.

Edit: Also, a lot of the "justifications" I see for piracy of any kind(not necessary on here) just strike me as, well, assholish.(is that a word? its a word now). I knew a few people in college who were of the everything should be free and I shouldn't have to pay for art...unless its mine, then they should pay, that i tend to have a bitter view of the whole thing.

[felice]

11 hours ago, MisterSrna said:

I think an author should be compensated when someone makes a profit from their work. Why is that a bad thing?

 

11 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Because it is completely divorced from what copyright legally protects.  You are creating a structure where if Bob makes a million physical copies of Author Jane's book but gives them away Jane has no recourse against Bob.

The current legal situation is irrelevant to what "should" be, and compensating authors for sales of used books has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not third parties making unauthorised additional copies should be permitted.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

48 minutes ago, felice said:

 

The current legal situation is irrelevant to what "should" be, and compensating authors for sales of used books has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not third parties making unauthorised additional copies should be permitted.

Felice,

The current law is what determines what is and is not legal.  Things don't get more relevant than that.  Further, you've completely ignored my follow on reply to Mr.OJ:

[TrackerNeil]

3 hours ago, john said:

But a person who enjoys a book, after acquiring it through dubious means, has got to be of more merit, as far as the author's concerned, than the alternative which is a person who chooses not to buy the book. The first one's still a reader. That's exactly the relationship you want to create. That's got to be a little bit of compensation right there.

I wouldn't say that is exactly the relationship, no. The exact relationship I want is where the reader pays the $.99 and also reads the book. 

Look, I'm not trying to berate a hypothetical book-downloader, but I want to just call a duck a duck. When you (the rhetorical you, not you, john) download a book from a torrent site, you are enjoying the art without rewarding the artist for her hard work. You are expecting others to pay the freight for your entertainment. If you are taking the book without paying for it, you are stealing and let's stop obfuscating the issue with I wouldn't have paid for the book so no harm done or those damned publishers charge too much. Maybe you are OK with stealing--I encountered someone online who was brazen and shameless about it--but let's at least acknowledge what's going on. Stealing an ebook is not the worst crime one can imagine, but it's stealing, plain and simple. 

[Starkess]

Also I don't really buy the argument that e-books are way overpriced. $13 for a book? Considering that goes to pay for a myriad of functions leading up to a book release, and many books aren't even profitable for the publishers, and a book provides a significant amount of entertainment for that price...nah, sorry, I'm not that sympathetic.

[Darth Richard II]

34 minutes ago, Starkess said:

Also I don't really buy the argument that e-books are way overpriced. $13 for a book? Considering that goes to pay for a myriad of functions leading up to a book release, and many books aren't even profitable for the publishers, and a book provides a significant amount of entertainment for that price...nah, sorry, I'm not that sympathetic.

Yeah as someone who has been obsessively collecting hardbacks since oh at least 1990, I have zero sympathy there.

[C.T. Phipps]

7 hours ago, TrackerNeil said:

I can only speak for myself, but I have no idea what drives sales. Sometimes a flurry of sales will follow a review or a promotional effort, and sometimes I'll rupture myself on promoting a book and get nothing for my efforts. I really wonder how anyone is certain that illegally downloading books helps sales.

Also, authors do give away thousands of ebooks so there's something to be said about piracy helping certain sales.

[TheRevanchist]

8 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I like how people keep insisting piracy helps sales eve though a bunch of authors have shown up in this thread and say that they don't.

Abraham said that it might help (not in the exact same terms). In fact, it is naive to think that it won't have any positive effect. After all, if some people who had no intention to buy a book, go and pirate it, and enjoy it, then it is possible that they will go and buy that same book (or more likely, its sequels), so in the end the author would get some money.

I think that this stands mostly for new authors. You either buy the new book of ASOIAF or you don't. I doubt that many people pirate it, enjoy it and then they buy it. But when it comes to some new author whom people have never heard and they see a book cost 10+$, then they might prefer to steal it and then if they like, some of them will go and buy it (assumption: humans aren't total arseholes). The problem here is that the new authors might gets discouraged (especially if they take themselves too much seriously like the OP who thinks that all the downloads would have been legitimate purchases if torrents didn't exist) and stop writing. That sucks!

I really think that the debate is more complex than people should compensate authors. Sure, that is true, but if that was going to happen, then we wouldn't be debating this. It is very difficult to convince all those people to change their mindset (without finding a compromise) and it is even more difficult to stop torrents. There are many other industries which have been here before, and some have found a solution (I really like the steam model for video games), or close to it.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

I think the best defense against pirating by people who would buy if they know they will like the book is to offer reasonable samples.  

There are a lot of samples that just give the forward, acknowledgements and chapter titles.  with maybe the first page or two of the actual story.    - This is not enough to evaluate the book.   The temptation then is to torrent the book as a test, I would hope that then if they like the book they will purchase a legal copy, but not all will -they may purchase the next book in the series legally though.     If you buy from a physical book shop, most people browse the book in-store to get a feel of it.  without a decent sample you can't.  nor can you give away or sell to a second hand book shop any e-book you didn't enjoy.

There are also a lot of e-books that do offer decent samples.

 

 

Another defense against pirating is Amazon Prime.    I'll be really interested to see if there has been a difference in the amount of downloads since Amazon Prime was introduced.   Not every kindle user will have Amazon Prime but since more than just books are available - free next day delivery and their TV service I think more and more people will take advantage.  then their "need" to get pirated books is drastically reduced.

5 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Felice,

The current law is what determines what is and is not legal.  Things don't get more relevant than that.  Further, you've completely ignored my follow on reply to Mr.OJ:

I believe its not against the law to call you a vile scummy bastard.  It would still be morally wrong.  - No one is arguing what the law states or denying that copyright holder should not be compensated for every copy.  People are saying they personally feel that Authors should also get some kind of compensation from used book sales.  they are well aware that this is not covered by copyright or any laws.

[red snow]

I'm trying to remember the director who was quoted as saying something like "I love the people who hate my films but paid for them and hate the people who loved the film but stole it". Think he was one of the superhero directors?

[polishgenius]

27 minutes ago, The Shamrock that hides said:

Another defense against pirating is Amazon Prime.  

 

That's only a defence against people who own a kindle.

 

But Amazon being awkward cunts is another subject. If a book is only available in kindle formats, I don't read the book - simple enough.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

12 minutes ago, red snow said:

I'm trying to remember the director who was quoted as saying something like "I love the people who hate my films but paid for them and hate the people who loved the film but stole it". Think he was one of the superhero directors?

I agree.  

 

But the "I don't want to buy before I try" is often used as an excuse by torrents who claim they would legally buy the book if they knew they would like it.   Its also an easy fix.  Offer reasonable samples.    maybe all you end up doing is taking away one of the excuses.    Maybe we need some kind of study between illegal downloads of books with and without decent samples?

 

 

In the past I have been one of those people that torrented books I was unsure on to test.  If I read a chunk I would always buy it.  I don't do that anymore, due to a previous version of this thread made me re-think.  Now if there is no sample or a short sample I just don't buy or read the book at all, and choose something else  (unless the book is really really cheep  £3 or less, then I might just take a chance on it anyway)  However people have lost sales because I have done the correct thing.

 

We are never going to be able to stop all torrents.  but we can try to find ways to reduce them.

 

[red snow]

Luke Scull's publisher coaxed me into trying out the new author by having a free 100 page sample (about a third of the book) followed by a £2 ebook on launch. I've since bought book 2 and will be gettng the third on  release.

Gollancz had a £2 pre-sale and first week of sale promo on new authors/series last year. I don't know if they've continued that but I at least bought a few - although I've yet to read.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

9 minutes ago, DjourouLoveMe? said:

 

That's only a defence against people who own a kindle.

 

But Amazon being awkward cunts is another subject. If a book is only available in kindle formats, I don't read the book - simple enough.

Well yes you need a Kindle to use Amazon Prime books,  but it is a model that works and a different version could be used by other publishers/ suppliers?   Maybe Netflix could one day offer ebooks?

 

I believe with Amazon Prime the Author gets paid on the amount of the book that is read.  But the user just pays for their subscription.