R+L=J v.161

[Rippounet]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon Snow either marries Daenerys and rules at her side as her Prince Consort or he ends up on the throne as her anointed heir should she not survive the last battle. Any scenario in which Dany actually bends the knee to this Starkish looking boy of uncertain ancestry is completely ridiculous. She'll have conquered the known world by the time they meet, possibly even including Westeros itself, and thus Dany will rule by right of blood as much as by right of conquest.

Jon Snow has nothing to counter that. And one imagines that returning from the dead and possibly still depicting a lot of unhealed/ugly mortal wounds is not going to convince a majority of sane people that they should follow this dude. I mean, we don't even know whether zombies can father any children to continue the dynasty.

I agree 100%, thanks for explaining this so clearly. I'll add the fact that Martin very explicitly stated that in his world, there is a cost to resurrection -for the resurrected. The fact that Jon died means he's unlikely to lead a normal life now, and -like Beric- may even long for death, and rest.

Basically at this point in the books, you have on the one hand Dany who is obviously set to conquer the world, while Jon seems set to save it. It's easy to imagine Dany having a Stannis moment and realizing that she must save the world to rule it, but I don't see Jon suddenly wanting to be a ruler, unless his death turned him into a power-hungry villain.

Jon's parentage  will probably prove important, but I really doubt it will prove politically important.

[Black Crow]

Its also worth bearing in mind that GRRM's synopsis from 1993 envisaged Danaerys the Dragonlord and her Dothraki horde conquering a Westeros already ruined by the game of thrones, and then finding that no sooner is she sitting on the Iron Throne than she needs to unite the shattered realm to face the blue-eyed boys from the north.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Rippounet said:

I agree 100%, thanks for explaining this so clearly. I'll add the fact that Martin very explicitly stated that in his world, there is a cost to resurrection -for the resurrected. The fact that Jon died means he's unlikely to lead a normal life now, and -like Beric- may even long for death, and rest.

I'm pretty sure Jon will sort of get around the whole 'being summoned back from beyond the veil by some (evil) necromancer' resurrection thing thanks to his second life in Ghost (I mean, come on, my girlfriend recently pointed out that the very name of the wolf, a ghost in Ghost, made that one evident - and one actually wonders whether that intentional from the beginning) but his body has to be restored to life somehow. And if it is done the Beric way there will be some ugly inhuman scars. Even if it was done in a ritual involving blood magic he won't be the same if Drogo is any indication (his breast was a huge ugly scar thereafter aside from the fact that he came back as a lackwit).

1 minute ago, Rippounet said:

Basically at this point in the books, you have on the one hand Dany who is obviously set to conquer the world, while Jon seems set to save it. It's easy to imagine Dany having a Stannis moment and realizing that she must save the world to rule it, but I don't see Jon suddenly wanting to be a ruler, unless his death turned him into a power-hungry villain.

In Dany's case there are a lot of people on the way to her who will ground her and help her find the right path (or lead her towards it). We have the Red Priests hailing her as the savior, we have Marwyn coming to her to tell her about the Others and what Maester Aemon believed, and we have Tyrion telling her that the Night's Watch really could need some help.

Not to mention that we have Tyrion as the guy who could easily forge an alliance between Daenerys and Jon Snow and bring them together - not just at the same table but perhaps even in a more intimate sense. There is a narrative purpose to this whole Jon-Tyrion friendship thing and since George decided to send Tyrion to Dany it is pretty evident what's the point of that.

1 minute ago, Rippounet said:

Jon's parentage  will probably prove important, but I really doubt it will prove politically important.

 

At least not on a large scale. It could trigger Dany's interest in Jon Snow and help unite the Starks and Targaryens. In the North Jon's true parentage could actually cause trouble rather than help him. After all, if this comes out then Jon certainly could never be legitimized as Eddard Stark's son, no? And whatever Robb decreed in his testament would be, well, pretty problematic if he wanted to disinherit Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon in favor of his cousin who is just Stark on his mother's side.

If Jon Snow's story was supposed to be the 'hidden prince' story then he would have been the Aegon of this story. The Aegon introduced in the beginning who is learning about his true heritage and purpose at a point in time where he can actually become a part of the main political story. Or it would at least have him hook up with and get to know all the main players (sort of in a way as Tyrion does this throughout the novels). Instead he was isolated from the start and whatever power base he might be able to inherit on the basis of his status as a Stark bastard was greatly weakened throughout the story - and is about to be weakened even further.

In a realistic setting he cannot hope to conquer anything. And strictly speaking - all this revenge plot that is going on in the North right now is wrong. It is playing into the hands of the Others and Jon Snow actually should know that. He should have done everything in his power to make a peace with the Boltons as he has made a peace with the wildlings because they will need every man when the Others come.

[Greymoon]

10 hours ago, Rippounet said:

1) I agree 100%, thanks for explaining this so clearly. I'll add the fact that Martin very explicitly stated that in his world, there is a cost to resurrection -for the resurrected. The fact that Jon died means he's unlikely to lead a normal life now, and -like Beric- may even long for death, and rest.

2) Basically at this point in the books, you have on the one hand Dany who is obviously set to conquer the world, while Jon seems set to save it. It's easy to imagine Dany having a Stannis moment and realizing that she must save the world to rule it, but I don't see Jon suddenly wanting to be a ruler, unless his death turned him into a power-hungry villain.

3) Jon's parentage  will probably prove important, but I really doubt it will prove politically important.

1) As far as I'm aware Jon hasn't died in the books. It's a bit precipitated to speak of resurrection when we don't actually know how badly he is injured.

We don't know anything about how he'll get back on his feet. I for one, don't believe Melisandre will be the one to heal him/bring him back. imo, Bran and/or Bloodraven will be pulling strings behind the scene....It does appear that Bloodraven was able to pull Bran and Jojen back from their near death...If we combine Bran's comatose dreams and Varamyr's death...we get a picture of what I expect for Jon.... but this could only come to fruition if Jon doesn't die.

2) As for Jon and Dany...I do not see an alliance, nor do I foresee a scenario where Dany and Jon have fought side by side and Dany then bends the knee to him. I simply expect Dany to be unpopular and to bend to the will of the majority.

If we have two books left, it seems logical to expect that westeros will know war on numerous fronts, simultaneoulsy.... the threat from the north might not be taken seriously by those in the south, already deeply involved in other conflicts. The west coast will have to deal with the Iron Born, the south will face Aegon, Dorne, the Faith Militant...even if Aegon's manages to establish a semblant of peace, Dany's arrival will throw the south into chaos once more, with the possibility of civil war in Dorne (tensions are already rising).

So, basically, if the north first faces a series of small scale attacks, reports of the attacks may be met with disbelief - as has been the case from book one. By the time this conflict culminates into a full out battle for the dawn and the south finally sees the light, it may be too late for the southern troops to move up north and help, especially if snow piles up high on the roads and the seas can no longer be navigated.

It's possible communication between north and south will be difficult even before that. Yes Dany can fly her dragon up north and see for herself. But why should she, if she's fighting a war of her own in the south?

3) Jon's parentage might be important both magically and politically. As stated above, Bloodraven seems to have the power to pull people back from near death. He did it with Bran, he did it with Jojen. Both Bran and Jojen developed theirs powers after their near death experience. I believe (though people are free to disagree, of course) that the main difference between a simple skinchanger and a greenseer is near death experience ...this could prove potentially interesting for Jon.

(In his moment of death, Varamyr's spirit suddenly becomes parts of the stars and trees ect... is the difference between Varamyr and Bran the fact that Bran has an anchor (his human body) and Varamyr doesn't?.... as a side note, a near death experience was one of the criteria for the selection of a shaman in siberia; people with near death experiences were thought to be capable of communicating with the world of the spirits...Bran's cave is full of death symbols, as if the cave was some sort of underworld).

Concerning the political ramification, imo, it will be important in relation to fAegon. As you said, Jon does not appear to want power. But, if he becomes a leader of sorts in the north, it may fall to him to decide which new king to support...after Stannis's defeat, before Dany's arrival, the candidates would be Euron, fAegon, Tommen or some other previously unknown individual with a dubious claim. If I were Jon, I'd declare for fAegon.... furthermore, it's possible that fAegon's missing ships, the ones carrying his elephants, land somewhere north. (They got separated by a storm near Lys. Other ships caught in a storm were carried all the way up to hardhome....)

For me, Jon’s potential future kingship hinges on three things: on fAegon acknowledging him as his half-brother; on fAegon’s popularity before defeat...and on Jon's participation in the war with the Others. If fAegon vouches for Jon and if the people of westeros genuinely believe fAegon to be Rhaegar’s son, if fAegon is celebrated and loved….after his defeat, fAegon’s supporters might turn to Jon. As for his role in the battle for the dawn, Jon doesn’t need to be the ultimate hero of the battle… but he needs to have been one of the commanders involved in the battle. 

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

1) As far as I'm aware Jon hasn't died in the books. It's a bit precipitated to speak of resurrection when we don't actually know how badly he is injured.

We can make a reasonable guess. To me he seems to be dying in the chapter and is about to begin his second life in Ghost at the very end.

17 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

We don't know anything about how he'll get back on his feet. I for one, don't believe Melisandre will be the one to heal him/bring him back. imo, Bran and/or Bloodraven will be pulling strings behind the scene....It does appear that Bloodraven was able to pull Bran and Jojen back from their near death...If we combine Bran's comatose dreams and Varamyr's death...we get a picture of what I expect for Jon.... but this could only come to fruition if Jon doesn't die.

You are confusing things there. Bloodraven cannot pull people back from death. He could awaken innate magical abilities in Bran and Jojen which then resulted in them to recover. If you check then Bloodraven couldn't repair Bran's broken spine or legs - what the hell makes you believe he can heal (mortal) stab wounds? I understand that you do not want Jon to die but do you have any evidence how this could work or that Bloodraven can do such a thing?

17 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

2) As for Jon and Dany...I do not see an alliance, nor do I foresee a scenario where Dany and Jon have fought side by side and Dany then bends the knee to him. I simply expect Dany to be unpopular and to bend to the will of the majority.

Well, some people in Westeros will have issues with Dany, but not all of them. And she will conquer Westeros. Unless the original outline was changed considerably that was clear from the start.

17 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

If we have two books left, it seems logical to expect that westeros will know war on numerous fronts, simultaneoulsy.... the threat from the north might not be taken seriously by those in the south, already deeply involved in other conflicts. The west coast will have to deal with the Iron Born, the south will face Aegon, Dorne, the Faith Militant...even if Aegon's manages to establish a semblant of peace, Dany's arrival will throw the south into chaos once more, with the possibility of civil war in Dorne (tensions are already rising).

There will, most likely, not be only two books. There is way too much plot for that right now. There are also very obvious hints that Daenerys will lead people into battle against creatures armored in ice. That is effectively a confirmation that Dany will lead armies against the Others. 

17 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

So, basically, if the north first faces a series of small scale attacks, reports of the attacks may be met with disbelief - as has been the case from book one. By the time this conflict culminates into a full out battle for the dawn and the south finally sees the light, it may be too late for the southern troops to move up north and help, especially if snow piles up high on the roads and the seas can no longer be navigated.

If that's the case then the North will be overrun and the Others will march down south where they are then met and defeated by the people down there.

17 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

It's possible communication between north and south will be difficult even before that. Yes Dany can fly her dragon up north and see for herself. But why should she, if she's fighting a war of her own in the south?

She will win her war in the South.

17 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

3) Jon's parentage might be important both magically and politically. As stated above, Bloodraven seems to have the power to pull people back from near death. He did it with Bran, he did it with Jojen. Both Bran and Jojen developed theirs powers after their near death experience. I believe (though people are free to disagree, of course) that the main difference between a simple skinchanger and a greenseer is near death experience ...this could prove potentially interesting for Jon.

So you are saying both Bran and Jon will become greenseers?

We know that greenseers are special people, and neither Bran nor Jojen had near death experiences. Bran was in a coma, and Jojen was sick. That's it.

17 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

(In his moment of death, Varamyr's spirit suddenly becomes parts of the stars and trees ect... is the difference between Varamyr and Bran the fact that Bran has an anchor (his human body) and Varamyr doesn't?.... as a side note, a near death experience was one of the criteria for the selection of a shaman in siberia; people with near death experiences were thought to be capable of communicating with the world of the spirits...Bran's cave is full of death symbols, as if the cave was some sort of underworld).

Skinchanging is a weaker form of greenseeing and had Varamyr been stronger he may have been able to bond with the trees as his spirit tries to do when he is dying.

17 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

Concerning the political ramification, imo, it will be important in relation to fAegon. As you said, Jon does not appear to want power. But, if he becomes a leader of sorts in the north, it may fall to him to decide which new king to support...after Stannis's defeat, before Dany's arrival, the candidates would be Euron, fAegon, Tommen or some other previously unknown individual with a dubious claim. If I were Jon, I'd declare for fAegon.... furthermore, it's possible that fAegon's missing ships, the ones carrying his elephants, land somewhere north. (They got separated by a storm near Lys. Other ships caught in a storm were carried all the way up to hardhome....)

That makes no sense at all. Prince Aegon would have no use and no interest in an alliance with a guy who might have been his half-brother by Lyanna Stark. Aegon is not only Rhaegar's son but also the son of Elia Martell, and Dorne has no interest in being reminded how the Martells got humiliated by this Lyanna affair.

Not to mention that Jon declaring for anybody would be pretty irrelevant. Aegon has no need of a few ragged Northmen who cannot be of any help down in the South.

17 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

For me, Jon’s potential future kingship hinges on three things: on fAegon acknowledging him as his half-brother; on fAegon’s popularity before defeat...and on Jon's participation in the war with the Others. If fAegon vouches for Jon and if the people of westeros genuinely believe fAegon to be Rhaegar’s son, if fAegon is celebrated and loved….after his defeat, fAegon’s supporters might turn to Jon. As for his role in the battle for the dawn, Jon doesn’t need to be the ultimate hero of the battle… but he needs to have been one of the commanders involved in the battle. 

Aegon's true identity might very well be revealed later on, and if he ever espoused Jon as his brother then his legitimacy would be called into question, too.

Aegon certainly will be popular in the beginning of his reign, but Westeros is threatened on many fronts, and he might have added another threat to it with the whole greyscale thing. Jon Connington's sickness is going to become a problem and he might cause a plague for which the people might eventually blame Aegon. Or Aegon's attempts to control it will make him very unpopular.

[Greymoon]

57 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We can make a reasonable guess. To me he seems to be dying in the chapter and is about to begin his second life in Ghost at the very end.

1) You are confusing things there. Bloodraven cannot pull people back from death. He could awaken innate magical abilities in Bran and Jojen which then resulted in them to recover. If you check then Bloodraven couldn't repair Bran's broken spine or legs - what the hell makes you believe he can heal (mortal) stab wounds? I understand that you do not want Jon to die but do you have any evidence how this could work or that Bloodraven can do such a thing?

Well, some people in Westeros will have issues with Dany, but not all of them. And she will conquer Westeros. Unless the original outline was changed considerably that was clear from the start.

[...]

If that's the case then the North will be overrun and the Others will march down south where they are then met and defeated by the people down there.

She will win her war in the South.

2) So you are saying both Bran and Jon will become greenseers?

3) We know that greenseers are special people, and neither Bran nor Jojen had near death experiences. Bran was in a coma, and Jojen was sick. That's it.

Skinchanging is a weaker form of greenseeing and had Varamyr been stronger he may have been able to bond with the trees as his spirit tries to do when he is dying.

That makes no sense at all. Prince Aegon would have no use and no interest in an alliance with a guy who might have been his half-brother by Lyanna Stark. Aegon is not only Rhaegar's son but also the son of Elia Martell, and Dorne has no interest in being reminded how the Martells got humiliated by this Lyanna affair.

4) Not to mention that Jon declaring for anybody would be pretty irrelevant. Aegon has no need of a few ragged Northmen who cannot be of any help down in the South.

1) Why am I confusing things? Bran's survival defied all logic. Yes, he lost his legs and that is the price he paid. How do you know that Jon's wounds can't be healed by Val, or Morna White Mask? even Melisandre could heal him - that doesn't mean she resurrects him though. Bran was pulled away from death by Bloodraven, but it's Maester Luwin help that allowed for it to happen.

I don't deny that Jon is badly wounded, but to write him off as dead or dying when we haven't gotten there yet in the books is precipitated.

2) No. I'm suggesting that Jon's near death experience will open interesting possibilities. Jojen Reed didn't become a greenseer, but started greendreaming. Who knows what near death does for Jon.

Spoiler

cf also Aeron's WoW chapter and the discussion of that chapter by Elio and Linda. They also speculate that near death plays a role in the developping of magical abilities in Bran and Jojen....and that Euron Greyjoy may have experienced something similar and may have become a thrall of the Others afterwards.

3) Yes they did both experience near death. Jojen nearly died of greywater fever, that much is made clear in the books. Bran nearly died falling from that tower. There's hints in Brans dreams while in coma that his choice is "to fly" or to die.

4) Aegon might appreciate not having to conquer the north, why should he refuse that? even better if it comes with the riverlands and Vale... or do you think that Sansa won't matter at all, or that Sansa and Jon will be at odds?

EDIT: on near death and magical abilities, there's also the case of Patchface, the prophetic fool. Unless he died and was resurrected by some mysterious force.

[Greymoon]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon's true identity might very well be revealed later on, and if he ever espoused Jon as his brother then his legitimacy would be called into question, too.

We've been asking how Jon could prove his legitimacy....but how would anyone go about proving that fAegon isn't who he claims to be? There is no proof...not even a paper proof. So it's all a matter of  how many powerful supporters Aegon manages to get on his side. I don't expect him to have a long reign, so I don't think he'll have the time to become unpopular. Aegon will parallel Robb in some ways: swift rise to power, followed be a brutal, sudden death.

[Lord Varys]

38 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

1) Why am I confusing things? Bran's survival defied all logic. Yes, he lost his legs and that is the price he paid. How do you know that Jon's wounds can't be healed by Val, or Morna White Mask? even Melisandre could heal him - that doesn't mean she resurrects him though. Bran was pulled away from death by Bloodraven, but it's Maester Luwin help that allowed for it to happen.

I guess Melisandre could heal Jon's wounds if they were not mortal (Morna and Val have yet to prove that they can work any magic). But I assume that they are. And for a scenario in which Jon is saved before his body died we would really have to assume that this whole coup thing sucked completely. We have no reason to believe that it does. Even if Jon's friends tried to save him why the hell should we assume that saving his body and trying to heal him magically should be their top priority? Surely it would be the top priority to put down the traitors first, and secure the Wall.

38 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

I don't deny that Jon is badly wounded, but to write him off as dead or dying when we haven't gotten there yet in the books is precipitated.

I think that borders on wishful-thinking. Any other alleged POV death was less obvious than this one. And why do you think the whole concept of the second life of a skinchanger was introduced? A comatose Jon could hang out in Ghost indefinitely without us needing this new concept that applies only to people who are actually dead.

38 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

2) No. I'm suggesting that Jon's near death experience will open interesting possibilities. Jojen Reed didn't become a greenseer, but started greendreaming. Who knows what near death does for Jon.

Well, he'll be trapped in Ghost. No character who is trapped in his animal has as of yet received any special insights. In fact, I doubt that Bran/Bloodraven would even reach Jon in Ghost and talk sense to him because the animal spirit slowly consumes your humanity if you are trapped in there. The idea that Jon will get any special revelations this was is a huge stretch.

38 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

3) Yes they did both experience near death. Jojen nearly died of greywater fever, that much is made clear in the books. Bran nearly died falling from that tower. There's hints in Brans dreams while in coma that his choice is "to fly" or to die.

I know that, but this did not necessarily heal him or bring him back to life. Or rather, the awakening of the abilities had the effect of waking them, but it did not heal them. The sickness/coma just opened the window for Bloodraven to contact them.

38 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

4) Aegon might appreciate not having to conquer the north, why should he refuse that? even better if it comes with the riverlands and Vale... or do you think that Sansa won't matter at all, or that Sansa and Jon will be at odds?

Sansa has only the Vale. It might declare for Aegon. The Riverlands will be recaptured by the Tullys in the next book. No idea whether they will team up with the North again. If Jon calls the shots there is a no go considering that we have Catelyn and presumably Brynden and Edmure as their leaders in the future.

38 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

EDIT: on near death and magical abilities, there's also the case of Patchface, the prophetic fool. Unless he died and was resurrected by some mysterious force.

Patchface seems to have been dead.

32 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

We've been asking how Jon could prove his legitimacy....but how would anyone go about proving that fAegon isn't who he claims to be? There is no proof...not even a paper proof. So it's all a matter of  how many powerful supporters Aegon manages to get on his side. I don't expect him to have a long reign, so I don't think he'll have the time to become unpopular. Aegon will parallel Robb in some ways: swift rise to power, followed be a brutal, sudden death.

If there is any truth to the Blackfyre angle then this will become a relevant plot point. I mean, the hints are that Illyrio is Aegon's father so there is a lot of potential there that this will be revealed one way or another.

There are hints comparing Aegon to the Young Dragon so his demise isn't unlikely but I don't expect him to go down like Robb did. If he is defeated by Dany or something like that he could easily survive and stuff, not every pretender has to be killed. Especially if he is revealed to be fraud.

[Greymoon]

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think that borders on wishful-thinking. Any other alleged POV death was less obvious than this one. And why do you think the whole concept of the second life of a skinchanger was introduced? A comatose Jon could hang out in Ghost indefinitely without us needing this new concept that applies only to people who are actually dead.

 

"Oh, you think he's dead, do you?" says GRRM.

The straightforward and literal explanation for that quote is that Jon isn't dead. The less straighforward explanation is that Jon is dead and is going to be resurrected.

I guess Melisandre could heal Jon's wounds if they were not mortal (Morna and Val have yet to prove that they can work any magic).

Melisandre has yet to prove she can work real magic... glamours and tricks are not the same as resurrecting someone. In the books she's never even met Beric Dondarrion and Thoros...She might not even know that resurrecting the dead is possible.

As for Morna and Val, it's true don't know wat they can do, but it's possible they know some healing - not necessarily magical either, just traditional healing.

[Lord Varys]

36 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

"Oh, you think he's dead, do you?" says GRRM.

The straightforward and literal explanation for that quote is that Jon isn't dead. The less straighforward explanation is that Jon is dead and is going to be resurrected.

No, the straightforward interpretation is that George doesn't answer the question whether Jon Snow is dead or not. And if he lives on in Ghost then he is not dead yet, at least not in an ultimate sense, regardless whether his body is resurrected or not.

36 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

Melisandre has yet to prove she can work real magic... glamours and tricks are not the same as resurrecting someone. In the books she's never even met Beric Dondarrion and Thoros...She might not even know that resurrecting the dead is possible.

Well, the standard interpretation of the Jon Snow story goes like this, not necessarily in this sequence of events:

- The skinchanger Borroq realizes that Jon Snow has begun his second life in Ghost. He informs others about that.

- Jon's body is eventually prepared to be burned the wildling way. Nobody intends to resurrect him because, you know, why should they?

- Melisandre gives Jon the last rites according to the faith of the Red Priests and Jon's body is miraculously resurrected like Thoros accidentally and unintentionally resurrected Beric Dondarrion.

- Thereafter body and spirit have to reunited some way because Jon's body will just be an empty shell.

Oh, and Melisandre can work actual magic. Or do you think the shadows who murdered Renly and Cortnay Penrose were just tricks? Or the fact that she withstood the Strangler in ACoK?

36 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

As for Morna and Val, it's true don't know wat they can do, but it's possible they know some healing - not necessarily magical either, just traditional healing.

Jon Snow received a deep stab wound in the gut as well as a stab wound between the shoulder blades which could have pierced the lungs or even damaged the aorta. Both wounds cannot be healed by conventional medieval medicine. It would have to be either magic or nothing.

And one hopes that Mel doesn't try fire magic healing spells on Jon because we know from Victarion's example what that does to your body. Jon would most likely look like walking fire zombie. The Moqorro method to heal Victarion's arm and wound changed said arm quite dramatically...

[RumHam]

3 hours ago, Greymoon said:

Melisandre has yet to prove she can work real magic... glamours and tricks are not the same as resurrecting someone. In the books she's never even met Beric Dondarrion and Thoros...She might not even know that resurrecting the dead is possible.

The shadow babies were real magic, not tricks or glamours. If Thoros can do it I don't see why Melisandre wouldn't be able to. That she doesn't know it's possible doesn't matter, all she has to do is preform the normal Red Priest funeral rites. 

[Greymoon]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, the standard interpretation of the Jon Snow story goes like this, not necessarily in this sequence of events:

- The skinchanger Borroq realizes that Jon Snow has begun his second life in Ghost. He informs others about that.

- Jon's body is eventually prepared to be burned the wildling way. Nobody intends to resurrect him because, you know, why should they?

- Melisandre gives Jon the last rites according to the faith of the Red Priests and Jon's body is miraculously resurrected like Thoros accidentally and unintentionally resurrected Beric Dondarrion.

- Thereafter body and spirit have to reunited some way because Jon's body will just be an empty shell.

Oh, and Melisandre can work actual magic. Or do you think the shadows who murdered Renly and Cortnay Penrose were just tricks? Or the fact that she withstood the Strangler in ACoK?

 

Whose standard, yours? Based on what? It's not sufficient to claim it's "standard". The text alludes to the sleeping beauty tale and to the mythology of the Valkyries. There was a thread on that once... Why discard that in favor of something that isn't hinted at by the text? Where is it ever hinted at that Jon's body will be burned?

What about the other "standard interpretation" where Jon is locked in an ice cell? Where does that figure in the scenario of him bein burned ? How do you take into account that foreshadowing in the books (Jon growing cold in Bran's vision; Jon seeing his own reflection in the wall; the focus on the ice cells ect.)

Melisandre can work shadow magic and withstand poison, ok I'm not arguing that...but that's still not the same as resurrecting someone. Different sort of magic, different skills.

Anyway. Having Jon become a Beric Dondarrion v. 2.0 is somewhat redundant, especially as we have Cat filling that role already. Why not explore other avenues?

[BeeStark]

R+L=J theory is really something. 161 threads about it.. wow

All I'm going to say is that I like this theory and it makes the most sense to me, I may not have read the books (and I may be biased) but I read about the other theories and they just seem like they are holding on to a slim thread to me. 

[UnViserion]

8 minutes ago, BeeStark said:

R+L=J theory is really something. 161 threads about it.. wow

Don't be fooled. There's about 15 volumes worth of quality discussion in this thing.

 

[BeeStark]

Just now, Rhaegar the Disdained said:

Don't be fooled. There's about 15 volumes worth of quality discussion in this thing.

 

which thing? r+l or the other Jon parentage theories?

[UnViserion]

9 minutes ago, BeeStark said:

which thing? r+l or the other Jon parentage theories?

r+L

i'm only joking mate

[Lord Varys]

On 25.6.2016 at 0:16 AM, Greymoon said:

Whose standard, yours? Based on what? It's not sufficient to claim it's "standard". The text alludes to the sleeping beauty tale and to the mythology of the Valkyries. There was a thread on that once... Why discard that in favor of something that isn't hinted at by the text? Where is it ever hinted at that Jon's body will be burned?

Didn't read that and don't see any Sleeping Beauty parallels. I mean, last I looked Jon didn't sting his finger on a spindle.

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What about the other "standard interpretation" where Jon is locked in an ice cell? Where does that figure in the scenario of him bein burned ? How do you take into account that foreshadowing in the books (Jon growing cold in Bran's vision; Jon seeing his own reflection in the wall; the focus on the ice cells ect.)

Oh, his corpse certainly could be stored in one of the ice cells but unless they want to preserve him there forever (or add him to their meat provisions for winter) one should assume that they will eventually burn him. That is the wildling way, after all, and we can be reasonably sure that they will end up on top in the coming conflict considering that the wildlings outnumber the Night's Watch - although the books might involve a lot of fighting and death. You have to keep in mind that Bowen Marsh will now control all the hostages the wildlings have given the NW, and I guess nobody will doubt that he will be willing and capable to put them to death should the wildlings misbehave.

If Jon ends up in the same ice cells he himself stored the bodies of the dead watchmen he might become a wight, by the way. After all, Jon stored them because he expected something like that to happen.

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Melisandre can work shadow magic and withstand poison, ok I'm not arguing that...but that's still not the same as resurrecting someone. Different sort of magic, different skills.

Are you even reading the books? Resurrecting people isn't a magical skill at all. It was the unexpected and unintended result of Thoros of Myr giving Beric Dondarrion the last rites according to the beliefs and customs of the Red Priests. If that's all that is to this - and it seems to be this way - then Melisandre certainly can pull off the same thing.

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Anyway. Having Jon become a Beric Dondarrion v. 2.0 is somewhat redundant, especially as we have Cat filling that role already. Why not explore other avenues?

Because this series isn't about exploring alternatives to the established concept of the resurrection of dead people? You have to keep in mind that the characters in the series most likely won't think constantly about how they could bring Jon Snow back from the dead. They will have other problems and I really don't see anyone actually deliberately wanting to do something like that because it is obviously an unnatural thing.

However, with Jon living on in Ghost and his body being resurrected inadvertently it makes sense for them to try to put both halves back together again. Jon wouldn't be Beric 2.0, by the way, because Beric's spirit was really restored/called back from beyond whereas Jon's would just have hung out it and become tainted by Ghost's animal nature. He'll be different - perhaps only for a limited time, perhaps permanently - but he'll not be actually changed by dying in a metaphysical sense. A skinchanger only dies for good and all when the animal he began to live his second life in dies, too.

[Quillon]

Whether Mel can or can't do the resurrection she's sure that she's able with warning Jon(i.e. seeing the future) and telling him she might need of her.

Tho I'd be disappointed if Mel resurrects Jon without any difference from how Beric resurrected, warging should be a part of that process after all that Varamyr foreshadowing. The show gave me some ideas how that would go down. 

Spoiler

Mel will do the ritual which won't work at first, later when he gets resurrected everyone will think Mel resurrected him when actually something different went down which includes warging.

Also I'm expecting a pre-resurrection chapter in Ghost's PoV named The Ghost of Castle Black or A Ghost in Castle Black.

 

Why would it be hard for Jon to prove his lineage if he's actually a Targ? Dany is something special for some reason, maybe from being pure blood or something else and she pulled of some spectacles like not getting burned and hatching dragons so why can't Jon do something like those if he's actually a Targ and arguably more special with his combined blood type(if the thing that matters is blood). Yeah Dany has living proofs alongside her but if Jon pulls of some stunts in front of a big audience, and in Westeros no less, he could cause the same effect. Tho the problem lies in where he's located he can't be among such audience but doesn't mean he won't ever be.

I believe in that theory where another battle takes place at Trident, Dany v Jon, now there would be a big audience.

 

[IceFire125]

6 hours ago, Quillon said:

Whether Mel can or can't do the resurrection she's sure that she's able with warning Jon(i.e. seeing the future) and telling him she might need of her.

Tho I'd be disappointed if Mel resurrects Jon without any difference from how Beric resurrected, warging should be a part of that process after all that Varamyr foreshadowing. The show gave me some ideas how that would go down. 

  Hide contents

Mel will do the ritual which won't work at first, later when he gets resurrected everyone will think Mel resurrected him when actually something different went down which includes warging.

 

Jon was born through the blood of Ice (Stark) and Fire (Targaryen)... he will be reborn through the ritual of Ice (Val) and Fire (Mel).

[Greymoon]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Didn't read that and don't see any Sleeping Beauty parallels. I mean, last I looked Jon didn't sting his finger on a spindle.

Oh, his corpse certainly could be stored in one of the ice cells but unless they want to preserve him there forever (or add him to their meat provisions for winter) one should assume that they will eventually burn him. That is the wildling way, after all, and we can be reasonably sure that they will end up on top in the coming conflict considering that the wildlings outnumber the Night's Watch - although the books might involve a lot of fighting and death. You have to keep in mind that Bowen Marsh will now control all the hostages the wildlings have given the NW, and I guess nobody will doubt that he will be willing and capable to put them to death should the wildlings misbehave.

If Jon ends up in the same ice cells he himself stored the bodies of the dead watchmen he might become a wight, by the way. After all, Jon stored them because he expected something like that to happen.

Are you even reading the books? Resurrecting people isn't a magical skill at all. It was the unexpected and unintended result of Thoros of Myr giving Beric Dondarrion the last rites according to the beliefs and customs of the Red Priests. If that's all that is to this - and it seems to be this way - then Melisandre certainly can pull off the same thing.

Because this series isn't about exploring alternatives to the established concept of the resurrection of dead people? You have to keep in mind that the characters in the series most likely won't think constantly about how they could bring Jon Snow back from the dead. They will have other problems and I really don't see anyone actually deliberately wanting to do something like that because it is obviously an unnatural thing.

However, with Jon living on in Ghost and his body being resurrected inadvertently it makes sense for them to try to put both halves back together again. Jon wouldn't be Beric 2.0, by the way, because Beric's spirit was really restored/called back from beyond whereas Jon's would just have hung out it and become tainted by Ghost's animal nature. He'll be different - perhaps only for a limited time, perhaps permanently - but he'll not be actually changed by dying in a metaphysical sense. A skinchanger only dies for good and all when the animal he began to life his second life in dies, too.

Yes I did in fact read the books. We have a different reading of the books, that's all. 

Sleepy Jack, Sleepy Jon Snow, these are the references I was speaking off, taken straight from the books, they are no invention of mine. There are some others as well, I remember seeing a thread some years ago about references to fairy tales.

You are basing your whole argument of the fact that Jon dies. But why we should follow your explanation of GRRM's sentence, rather than the more straightfoward interpretation,  is something you haven't fully explained.