Lord Varys Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 @Quillon No show spoilers in here! Skinchanging can neither heal mortal wounds no restore people to life so it is not very likely that this comes into play when Jon's body returns from the dead. However, it will play a crucial role in reuniting Jon's body with his spirit. This could easily become a very serious predicament since Varamyr actually believed that his death would permanently destroy his skinchanging abilities. If that's correct then Jon might be permanently trapped in Ghost even if his body is resurrected because his can no longer access the 'skinchanging ability' of his body from which he has become permanently severed. 5 hours ago, IceFire125 said: Jon was born through the blood of Ice (Stark) and Fire (Targaryen)... he will be reborn through the ritual of Ice (Val) and Fire (Mel). Considering that the only resurrection ritual 'of ice' we know is the spell to make wights I remain skeptical of that proclamation. The fact is that the books already established a working method to revive corpses without doing all that much damage to their spirits (the kiss of fire that is part of the burial rites of the red priests) so there is no reason to imagine that Jon Snow needs a special special treatment to come back from the dead. If George now invented method after method to pull off such things then the zombies should better take over the entire story... 11 minutes ago, Greymoon said: Yes I did in fact read the books. We have a different reading of them, that's all. We might on other details but I really don't understand how you can read the books differently on the whole kiss of fire thing. It has been established that Thoros didn't do anything special when he resurrected Beric - in fact, he did something every red priest should be able to do. Even if Melisandre had neither magical abilities nor could work any magic there would still be no reason to not believe that she could pull off the same thing Thoros did. Especially in light of the fact that nothing suggests that Thoros has any magical abilities or knowledge of his own. If R'hllor just answered Thoros' prayer - which I don't believe for a second despite it being a possibility - then everything can happen and nobody has to have any magical abilities whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymoon Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: We might on other details but I really don't understand how you can read the books differently on the whole kiss of fire thing. It has been established that Thoros didn't do anything special when he resurrected Beric - in fact, he did something every red priest should be able to do. Even if Melisandre had neither magical abilities nor could work any magic there would still be no reason to not believe that she could pull off the same thing Thoros did. Especially in light of the fact that nothing suggests that Thoros has any magical abilities or knowledge of his own. If R'hllor just answered Thoros' prayer - which I don't believe for a second despite it being a possibility - then everything can happen and nobody has to have any magical abilities whatsoever. Because, iirc, GRRM has said something along the line that it's not the gods, but the individuals and their innate magic that matters. So 1) we have no certainty Jon is dead, and 2) we have no certainty Melisandre could pull off a resurrection because she isn't Thoros, or Beric. She is Melisandre. As you said, Thoros did something every red priest should be able to do. Yet, every red priest does not randomly resurrect people. There is too much surrounding Beric's resurrection that we do not know - it's not a "normal" occurrence, we don't know how it works, why it worked, to what end etc. ...At one specific point in time, Dany survived fire. Can we conclude anything from it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 20 hours ago, Greymoon said: Because, iirc, GRRM has said something along the line that it's not the gods, but the individuals and their innate magic that matters. So 1) we have no certainty Jon is dead, and 2) we have no certainty Melisandre could pull off a resurrection because she isn't Thoros, or Beric. She is Melisandre. George has said that the gods are not going to show up in the story. But the question whether they'll actually exist or not is not going to be answered. Well, if you want to insist that Melisandre cannot speak the same prayer and give Jon Snow the same kiss that Thoros gave Beric then you are on very shaky ground. Melisandre clearly is a more devoted follower of R'hllor than Thoros. Whatever he can pull off Mel should be able to pull off, too. I think there is a reason why only Beric was resurrected by that spell yet and I think that has to do with Beric's Targaryen blood. If that's the case then the very same reason will also explain how Mel is going to be able to resurrect Jon's body. 20 hours ago, Greymoon said: As you said, Thoros did something every red priest should be able to do. Yet, every red priest does not randomly resurrect people. There is too much surrounding Beric's resurrection that we do not know - it's not a "normal" occurrence, we don't know how it works, why it worked, to what end etc. Well, there are a lot of factors to consider. I think the red priest integrated some Valyrian dragonlord spell in their religious rites. A spell that could restore people with dragon blood back to life. After the Doom and the death of the dragons that spell no longer worked - a fact that has changed by now. Normal people aren't resurrected by this whole thing, only 'special people'. 20 hours ago, Greymoon said: ...At one specific point in time, Dany survived fire. Can we conclude anything from it? Actually, we can. It established the fact that there are magical rituals/spells that can enable people to survive fire. Just as Qyburn's creation of Ser Robert established that you can create undead monsters in this world, or Melisandre's spells established that you can murder people using shadow assassins. Varamyr's second life established that death is not necessarily the end of the life of a skinchanger, and this is the very reason why we don't have/should not assume that Jon Snow is not dead. Because death is not the ultimate end for him. And narrative-wise there is a huge difference between a sleeping/unconscious/comatose skinchanger hanging out in his animal and a dead skinchanger living his second life. If Jon Snow wasn't supposed to begin his second life in Ghost after his murder then the whole Varamyr plot would have been a huge waste of time. But we got the second life story for a reason. We already knew that unconscious and sleeping skinchangers can hang out in their animals. There was no reason to introduce us to that concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillon Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 2 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Well, if you want to insist that Melisandre cannot speak the same prayer and give Jon Snow the same kiss that Thoros gave Beric then you are on very shaky ground. Melisandre clearly is a more devoted follower of R'hllor than Thoros. Whatever he can pull off Mel should be able to pull off, too. Devotion doesn't matter when it comes to LoL followers I guess; Thoros was always gifted, he was insubordinate but best of the class when it comes to do the tricks while he were at whatever temple at myr(?). But like I said I too believe Mel can do the same cos she sort of said so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnViserion Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 BOOM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Freddy Blackfyre Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 You can close this threat now. We can't pretent that nothing happened tonight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nami Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 My post was deleted um, because it was spoiler from the show what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnViserion Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 1 minute ago, Nami said: My post was deleted um, because it was spoiler from the show what? That would be my guess hence why I simply went with 'BOOM!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted June 27, 2016 Author Share Posted June 27, 2016 Yeah, no show spoilers allowed. Even "Boom" in context would probably be enough, cause lets face it everyone knows what you're saying. Honestly I don't think anyone should get annoyed that this particular theory was "spoiled" for them at this point. But it's the principle of the thing. Not to be a Stannis about it. 32 minutes ago, Lord Freddy Blackfyre said: You can close this threat now. We can't pretent that nothing happened tonight I'm actually kinda looking forward to the ant-R+L=J folks trying to rationalize this as misdirection or whatever, but this is not the place for any discussion that mentions the show. Try here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chib Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 I believe Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's ONLY son. He does not have any twin (be it Dany or Meera...). He is the only one. Now we only need to wait for the book to come out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erudain Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 nothing to see here anymore, move along move along Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nami Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 Two questions that still lingers and wasn't clarified was: Did she go willingly? Were they romantically involved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 48 minutes ago, Nami said: Two questions that still lingers and wasn't clarified was: Did she go willingly? Were they romantically involved? Make it three questions, and likely all three were answered. Were they married? Lyanna's and Rhaegar's characters suggest that all three are affirmed, and the Kingsguard dying at the tower are not dying for Rhaegar or Lyanna. Lyanna is not one to be taken against her will. She would have carried a sword, if Rickard had allowed it. Perhaps Lyanna did carry a sword when she wouldn't get caught, and she had practiced with future First Ranger Benjen. Lyanna said, "Love is sweet, but it cannot change a man's nature." Ned's respect for the Kingsguard affirms that they were doing their duty, as they said, "we are Kingsguard, we swore a vow." So, yes, Lyanna was willing, in love, and married. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 There is another question to answer...what is his real name? Would love to know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeStark Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 On 6/24/2016 at 9:13 PM, Rhaegar the Disdained said: 12 minutes ago, sj4iy said: There is another question to answer...what is his real name? Would love to know that. yeah, I see ppl in youtube commenting, they heard Aerys or Aemon or something. I think it would make sense for Lyanna to name her son with a valerian name. Ned just changed it to Jon to keep his cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 1 hour ago, sj4iy said: There is another question to answer...what is his real name? Would love to know that. Jon, he was named by Ned, confirmed by Martin. On 6/23/2016 at 4:37 PM, Rippounet said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amoracchius Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 So how's everybody doing today? Anyone see anything cool on TV last night? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpion92 Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 Really curious what anti R+L=J people have to say now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeStark Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 15 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said: Really curious what anti R+L=J people have to say now... Who is Jon's father? They never mentioned Rhaegar was the father in the Tower of Joy scene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nami Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 24 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said: Really curious what anti R+L=J people have to say now... They want a sex scene between Lyanna and Rhaegar plus him kneeling down, kissing her belly and saying "Jon Snow, you are my son". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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