Heresy 187

[Black Crow]

52 minutes ago, Tyryan Lannister said:

First, alone of the combatants during the War of Five Kings, the North was never seeking the Iron Throne, instead looking to get rid of it as overlord (in a sense similar to UK and the EU vote?).  So, in this context, again, Joffrey and Cersei enacted measures against the ruling Stark of Winterfell, so Winter Came.  Second, Aegon wasn't able to solidify his position as High King until he had the North; another way to say that, is that the Iron Throne was not created until the North was a part of the alliance.  So the Iron Throne might be symbolic of a unified Westeros--but as long as the North remains divided, as long as the Starks are not in Winterfell, as long as Winter is still Coming, the Iron Throne will not be secure.  And, from where I'm standing, I don't see the North joining up with the rest of them anytime soon.  As such, anyone who is still centered around controlling the Iron Throne is doomed to failure, for they will never be able to reunify Westeros, and it is only in a unified Westeros that the Iron Throne can endure.

While broadly agreeing, I have to remind you that the coming of the direwolves and Bran's being lured up the tower by the crows occurred well before Ned Stark went south to die.

As to the future though you're right in suggesting that without the North the Iron Throne will be meaningless especially as Dorne doesn't want to play either. The question then is whether the North will willingly submit to an Iron Throne which has only lasted for 300 years, which oddly enough is the same age as the United Kingdom. 

[Tyryan Lannister]

7 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

While broadly agreeing, I have to remind you that the coming of the direwolves and Bran's being lured up the tower by the crows occurred well before Ned Stark went south to die.

True, but Jon Arryn was a few days dead, and Robert had made his mind to get Ned as his Hand possibly before Gared even got south of the Wall (which is to say, don't really know the exact timline of when Gared fled and how long it took him to get caught versus when Arryn died and the raven was sent, but, given that Cat has the message in hand on the day of the execution, we know that Arryn died at least a small number of days before the day of the execution and the finding of the wolves.  And Ned had already made the decision to go south before the crows lured Bran up.

6 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

The question then is whether the North will willingly submit to an Iron Throne which has only lasted for 300 years, which oddly enough is the same age as the United Kingdom. 

GRRM's a prophet it would seem 

[Other other stark]

That is kinda what I was getting at a few pages earlier. Ice side knows the Starks will be at war. So they have been preparing for an undefined time that we may never find out. But there is a final sign that it's green light time. The wolves get sent. Then bran gets crippled. The Starks get there human greenseer needed to unite and communicate. Now they need a leader to come forth from the other 5 remaining Starks. But all are South but Jon and rikon. Jon is being courted by the snowflakes and white shadows. Only Jon is not the Starks of old and might not use this power and the ice magic of his ancestors. And put an end to what is for the history given to us a king of winter. If I remember Brandon ice eyes brought ferocious winds with him to the wolf den. Wether it was him or the stark greenseer of that day is irrelevant. The Starks have winter in them. They can withstand it and use it

[Black Crow]

Not far off I'd say, but remember that while he's Jon Snow rather than Jon Stark he is still very much a son of Winterfell

[Tyryan Lannister]

I can't help but wonder what part Bloodraven has to play beyond being the teacher to Bran.  While we know when he went missing; we don't yet know the actual details of his leaving the Watch, nor his involvement in anything prior to Bran's fall.  For all we know (and, yes, I know I'm approaching Big God Comes and Manipulates mode), he could have been the reason Aerys went truly mad in the first place.

[Tucu]

10 minutes ago, Tyryan Lannister said:

I can't help but wonder what part Bloodraven has to play beyond being the teacher to Bran.  While we know when he went missing; we don't yet know the actual details of his leaving the Watch, nor his involvement in anything prior to Bran's fall.  For all we know (and, yes, I know I'm approaching Big God Comes and Manipulates mode), he could have been the reason Aerys went truly mad in the first place.

I doubt it. BR was a Targaryen loyalist and Aerys II showed signs of madness 10 years before his death.

[Tyryan Lannister]

1 minute ago, Tucu said:

I doubt it. BR was a Targaryen loyalist and Aerys II showed signs of madness 10 years before his death.

And Bloodraven was in position well before that--if he had an involvement, it could have been to try to hasten Aerys' removal for __________reasons

[Other other stark]

That is why I am not on board with the Starks not being skinchangers before the wolves. I think they just never had a bond with any animal prior. The direwolves just bring it out. Because it's very plausible to see blood Raven and other greenseers or people with glass candles messing with people's dreams. and using ski changing. You just have to know how to do it 

[Tucu]

26 minutes ago, Tyryan Lannister said:

And Bloodraven was in position well before that--if he had an involvement, it could have been to try to hasten Aerys' removal for __________reasons

A lot of tragedies hit the Targs during his tenure as greenseer. I am not sure if he was not in a position to help or he pulled a series of Wile E. Coyote stunts that cost his family dearly.

[Tyryan Lannister]

2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

A lot of tragedies hit the Targs during his tenure as greenseer. I am not sure if he was not in a position to help or he pulled a series of Wile E. Coyote stunts that cost his family dearly.

If you take out the part with Rhaegar dying, all the tragedies tend to line up with being necessary acts to hasten both bringing Rhaegar to the Iron Throne and uniting the Stark and Targaryen bloodlines--if Bloodraven had anything to do with it, he obviously screwed up somewhere...could very well be something where the Greenseer is not able to actively influence, but rather can implant dreams and/or ideas, but that it is still ultimately the choice of the individuals that decides the outcome

[Tucu]

18 minutes ago, Tyryan Lannister said:

If you take out the part with Rhaegar dying, all the tragedies tend to line up with being necessary acts to hasten both bringing Rhaegar to the Iron Throne and uniting the Stark and Targaryen bloodlines--if Bloodraven had anything to do with it, he obviously screwed up somewhere...could very well be something where the Greenseer is not able to actively influence, but rather can implant dreams and/or ideas, but that it is still ultimately the choice of the individuals that decides the outcome

I am counting from the Tragedy at Summerhall. Either BR could do nothing (not even send a crowgram telling Aegon not to play with wildfire) or his plans had tragic consequences.

[Clueless Northman]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The question then is whether the North will willingly submit to an Iron Throne which has only lasted for 300 years, which oddly enough is the same age as the United Kingdom. 

It might depend on how much GRRM is into political philosophy, Aristotle, Ibn Khaldun and others. It's pretty clear that most political systems have a 2-300 years lifespan when they're quite effective. Beyond that, they'll change on their own, decay or be overthrown by some outer menace. Sure, kingdoms have lasted for far longer, but dynasties don't last more than a few centuries, and when you look at a monarchy 500 years apart, the actual regime has usually changed so much it's as if a revolution had occurred.

For Westeros, the Targ realm of old can't be restored as it was, obviously, and only a massively reformed Targ empire could rule over a re-united Westeros again.

[Mace Cooterian]

1 hour ago, Tyryan Lannister said:

 

I have nothing to add as usual other than to say welcome back!

I'm glad to see that you are still the hand of the King Heretic and have not jumped over to the other side given recent events unfolding in the mummer's version.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Getting back to the questions about what caused the "awakening" among the Starks and others, maybe it's Jon?

Assuming RLJ, Jon is the first Stark who is the child of a ruling Stark's daughter to be raised at Winterfell in quite sometime (looking at the family tree, can't really pinpoint anytime recently where a daughter of the ruling lord raised her son at Winterfell).  

Maybe this is what the "Ice side" has been waiting for?  A matrilineal Stark to be raised in Winterfell?  And it just took circa 15 years for the pieces to start coming into place?

2 minutes ago, Mace Cooterian said:

I have nothing to add as usual other than to say welcome back!

I'm glad to see that you are still the hand of the King Heretic and have not jumped over to the other side given recent events unfolding in the mummer's version.

I will always be among my northern brethen 

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I've been on board with the weirwood grove/cave o' doom as the Heart of Winter for some time. Whether the show confirmed that or not, we must wait to see, but I think they hit the mark with that part. (Not with the rest of their shenanigans though) The story behind the creation of Others I'm impatiently waiting for.

 

Howdy, Tyryan. Long time no read 

 

[PrettyPig]

15 minutes ago, Tyryan Lannister said:

Assuming RLJ, Jon is the first Stark who is the child of a ruling Stark's daughter to be raised at Winterfell in quite sometime (looking at the family tree, can't really pinpoint anytime recently where a daughter of the ruling lord raised her son at Winterfell).  

Actually, you can walk back through that family tree and determine that Lyanna Stark is the only daughter of a Stark-Stark marriage (cousins Rickard and Lyarra)  going all the way back to Cregan Stark...whose own daughter Lyanna Stark with his wife Lynara (relation unknown) was the very first on record to be a female descendant of two Starks.    And Rickard and Lyarra Stark both descend solely from Cregan's line.

Nutshell, I don't think it's remiss to say that the female line may be important, particularly when it's accompanied by a double dose of Starkiness.

 

[PrettyPig]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Meanwhile, somewhere in the Dornish Marches…

Also, just couldn't let this pass without some applause.  Well done!    Does the White Bull dust off his midwife skills in the next segment?   

[Tyryan Lannister]

1 minute ago, PrettyPig said:

Nutshell, I don't think it's remiss to say that the female line may be important, particularly when it's accompanied by a double dose of Starkiness.

 

Add in GRRM's propensity to turn real-world customs on their heads (in this case, the importance of patrilineal descent)...

[wolfmaid7]

4 hours ago, Tyryan Lannister said:

Getting back to the questions about what caused the "awakening" among the Starks and others, maybe it's Jon?

Assuming RLJ, Jon is the first Stark who is the child of a ruling Stark's daughter to be raised at Winterfell in quite sometime (looking at the family tree, can't really pinpoint anytime recently where a daughter of the ruling lord raised her son at Winterfell).  

Maybe this is what the "Ice side" has been waiting for?  A matrilineal Stark to be raised in Winterfell?  And it just took circa 15 years for the pieces to start coming into place?

I will always be among my northern brethen 

Holy shite!!! Do my eyes decieve me?I thought we lost you in the Smoky sea son??

 

Super glad to have you back.

[Black Crow]

On 6/29/2016 at 2:00 AM, PrettyPig said:

Actually, you can walk back through that family tree and determine that Lyanna Stark is the only daughter of a Stark-Stark marriage (cousins Rickard and Lyarra)  going all the way back to Cregan Stark...whose own daughter Lyanna Stark with his wife Lynara (relation unknown) was the very first on record to be a female descendant of two Starks.    And Rickard and Lyarra Stark both descend solely from Cregan's line.

Nutshell, I don't think it's remiss to say that the female line may be important, particularly when it's accompanied by a double dose of Starkiness.

 

We've certainly talked a lot about what appears to be the importance of the female line and I think that's pretty heavily underlined by the high number of very strong female characters in the present.

And as to that present, notwithstanding the proclamations of R+L=J and fevered speculation as to Jon's "Targaryen" name, its worth pointing out that despite a Targaryen father Bloodraven was brought up by his Blackwood mother and who can doubt that the dead man in the tree is Brynden Blackwood. Similarly, whether Jon's father was Rhaegar Targaryen or Arthur Dayne, his mother was Lyanna Stark and who can doubt that he is a son of Winterfell.

EDIT: speaking of Bloodraven, whether you prefer to refer to him as Brynden Rivers or Bryden Blackwood, the fact is of course that despite being a king's son he doesn't have a Targaryen name.