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Dating: “I have this disease late at night sometimes, involving alcohol and the telephone.”


Datepalm

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Well, me seeing her again and be able to chat quietly for a time won't happen any time soon, that's many days ahead at best. So, you had my idea, but since things quietly evolve, morph, quiet down, it's too early to say if I'll say anything - and her general behaviour could influence a little bit, though I won't try to read any sign in it, that's doomed to fail.

But considering how you tend to think all that was bad if not awful and since I consider I indeed kind of fucked up to an extent, I was thinking some kind of excuses would be the polite, nice and respectful thing to do instead of washing my hands off it. If she suspects or knows something's up, I was wondering if it wouldn't be better to tell her briefly it's over, settle things, so that she won't need to bother anymore with it - if I acted as if there was nothing, she could keep worrying I might say something stupid again, at least for many weeks until she eventually puts this behind.

 

12 hours ago, Arkhangel said:

no one actually buys it when the boss says 'just treat me like an equal'. The slight edge of blame towards her for not being comfortable outright rejecting an older and more senior man at work is not fair.

I'm not her boss, just a bit more senior, but she's seen enough to notice and know very well that I'm not the boss and never act like one, I'm always just a rank employee when dealing with everybody. More importantly, that's definitely not blame, that's close to sadness - well, that's maybe a bit too strong, but you get the genreal feeling, I hope -  that we can't behave towards each other like mere people .

 

11 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

You might not believe women really have to deal with any danger when rejecting men but read xray's link. Whenwomenrefuse is a terrifying blog, to be honest...you might think "not all men are that violent/crazy!" but enough are...to make it a pretty important thing for women to try to look after themselves and he as polite/nonconfrotational as possible. 

I don't doubt these things happen. I'm not sure these awful cases are as frequent as that here around, and it might depend on the kind of people. So I'm sad she misinterpreted me that much or was that fearful - and sad for her because it might mean she had horrible expriences. As for my friends, well, there's no way some of them wouldn't tell me when things go that badly, considering the stuff they tell me - but of course none of that is statistically significant.

It's possible that I'm unsure about how bad it is because my closer male friends (as opposed to acquaintances) don't seem to act like this and don't talk that awfully about women behind their backs. And even more because I've never bad-mouthed or harshly criticized any ex, any girlfriend (obviously during rough time), or any woman who rejected me, not to her face, and not to a 3rd person. I have at times been upset and bordering angry, but I kept that animosity to myself because I knew I was unfair. Downright saying it is out of the question, for me that would be such a judgment that any further relationship would be unthinkable - basically, I've always been astounded when friends say their girl/boy-friend is an asshole, a stupid shit, and someone they don't want to see ever again, just to go back with him/her a few days after - I mean, if you love them, you can't consider them like whores/assholes, and if you've told your friends they actually were such, how can you fall for them again, be consistent for Cupid's sake. So brutalizing or calling a fucking bitch someone you like, or even love, someone you wanted to be with just 5 minutes earlier, just because she said no is so alien to me I can't think it's the majority reaction. These shitheads can just go play seek-and-hide on a highway, that kind of people has done enough damage already, both to girls themselves and to the saner guys towards which girls react with suspicion.

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She might not have thought of you as one of those guys, probably didn't, but a lot of the time we're conditioned to be as polite and nonconfrontational as possible. Sometimes without even really realising it. 

And honestly, sorry if our comments made you feel like some kind of monster, as of yet you've really not done anything wrong but maybe make her feel a bit uncomfortable, nothing she can't and won't forget about so you honestly don't need to take her aside and apologise to her one on one...I honestly don't see how that would help. Sorry if I've come across harsh in just trying to make my point as clear as possible. You don't have anything really to apologise for as of yet...so just be friendly in work on the days you see her but don't go out of your way to have one on one time with her.

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2 hours ago, Clueless Northman said:

If she suspects or knows something's up, I was wondering if it wouldn't be better to tell her briefly it's over, settle things, so that she won't need to bother anymore with it - if I acted as if there was nothing, she could keep worrying I might say something stupid again, at least for many weeks until she eventually puts this behind.

That's not how it works.

If you apologise, you're telling her you're still thinking about it, so it's not settled, not in your mind. You're telling her that you feel as if her feelings are your responsibility, and they're not. Plus, by apologising, you look like you're expecting her to accept, and in so doing are keeping the whole interaction going for another round, when she's been clear that she doesn't want that.

She already put it behind. She knows it's over. She's not worrying about it, I guarantee you. Your apology is unnecessary. It serves no purpose for her feelings, only yours.

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53 minutes ago, mormont said:

 

She already put it behind. She knows it's over. She's not worrying about it, I guarantee you. Your apology is unnecessary. It serves no purpose for her feelings, only yours.

Yeah. Basically this. 

This whole thing has not been of the same significance to her as it has to you. I'm sorry to say :(

You say she's one of the people you care for most. She doesn't feel that way about you. 

I don't want you to think these comments are coming from a nasty place to you, they're really not!! It's really about trying to save you more hurt and embarrassment and turning a kinda nonissue into a big thing. You dont need to feel bad or guilty if you just let it go. It will hurt because you like her and unrequited crushes suck but stop trying to read little things into her behaviour because contiuing to analyse her is just going to make things worse.

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1 hour ago, mormont said:

That's not how it works.

If you apologise, you're telling her you're still thinking about it, so it's not settled, not in your mind. You're telling her that you feel as if her feelings are your responsibility, and they're not. Plus, by apologising, you look like you're expecting her to accept, and in so doing are keeping the whole interaction going for another round, when she's been clear that she doesn't want that.

She already put it behind. She knows it's over. She's not worrying about it, I guarantee you. Your apology is unnecessary. It serves no purpose for her feelings, only yours.

Indeed. I think it's important to emphasize that it would affect her feelings -- she'd be creeped the fuck out that some dude at work won't leave her alone. Otherwise, yeah, fully agreed with all of this.

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On 10/6/2016 at 8:35 AM, Xray the Enforcer said:

Because, at least in the case of a woman turning down a man, outright saying that you're not interested typically results in the person calling you a "dyke" or "bitch" or other wonderful slurs, or the person starts arguing with you that you don't REALLY mean it and just it a try or, in the case of a few, the person stabbing or shooting you. It is much safer to go with the vague blow-off and then get the hell away from the person doing the asking. http://whenwomenrefuse.tumblr.com/

 

This has never made sense as an argument since you are feigning interest and are almost assuredly just going to have them ask you again because while they probably know you aren't interested, they would feel like an idiot if they just stopped talking to you when what you actually said "I would love to do that."

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1 hour ago, sperry said:

 

This has never made sense as an argument since you are feigning interest and are almost assuredly just going to have them ask you again because while they probably know you aren't interested, they would feel like an idiot if they just stopped talking to you when what you actually said "I would love to do that."

Eh.... I've been rejected by a lot of women, both explicitly and implicitly.  

 

If someone tells me they would love to do something but then take no action to so so, I'm assuming (yes, operative word, and all that goes with it) that they wouldn't actually love to do so, until I see otherwise.  

 

Maybe this is pessimistic or overly critical of people's motives but I feel like if you put the invite out there, and hear nothing back, or get a conditional answer, and nothing happens within a month or so, best to just move on.  

 

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11 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Eh.... I've been rejected by a lot of women, both explicitly and implicitly.  

 

If someone tells me they would love to do something but then take no action to so so, I'm assuming (yes, operative word, and all that goes with it) that they wouldn't actually love to do so, until I see otherwise.  

 

Maybe this is pessimistic or overly critical of people's motives but I feel like if you put the invite out there, and hear nothing back, or get a conditional answer, and nothing happens within a month or so, best to just move on.  

 

 

Yes, but this is asking you to assume the direct opposite of what has been said. Which is insane that that is the convention.

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23 minutes ago, sperry said:

 

Yes, but this is asking you to assume the direct opposite of what has been said. Which is insane that that is the convention.

No, and it's not.  There are plenty of social instances where we know things aren't exactly as they are expressed.  A month or so of someone being busy means that whatever you're asking them to do, isn't important to them.  

 

Doesnt mean it's easy to recognize when it's you.  And it's unfair to call someone out on that kind of excuse.  We all have had someone we kind of know invite us to shit we don't want to do.  And we don't say 'i don't like you and don't want to play ultimate frisbee with you', we say 'oh, sorry, I'm busy.'. 

 

And after a few ultimate frisbee invites, they catch on, and life goes on.  Same shit with dating.  If they can't hang out for a month, whatever they say, it's because of you.

 

Eta: yeah, not obvious from language alone.  But it's easy enough to see other instances where  it's completely ok to respond similarly, and that's not even getting into the potential for violence or a fucked up response. 

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Was going to respond to sperry's comment, but larry said it better. Human interaction doesn't normally proceed along straight rational lines based on a literal interpretation of what was said.

As for it "not making sense", well, it's a strategy women all over the world have followed for probably as long as we've even been permitted the capacity to say no (which sadly excludes a great deal of human history). Assuming that you're not trying to tell all of those generations of women that their safety strategy is "insane", perhaps you should consider the possibility that instead of them being wrong, it's that you simply fail to understand it because you have not lived with the experience of systemic discrimination and violence against women.

tldr; don't call a group of people crazy if you've never walked in their shoes

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I may be a wee bit more touchy on this subject than usual having just heard a man who millions of people intend to vote for as President of the USA describe how he commits literal actual sexual assault. You don't have to understand the way in which these safety strategies are socialised into women, or how much time and effort it takes, but at least don't try to tell women they're not rational for doing it. 

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Also, step back, dudes - men do the 'sure that sounds great I'm just really busy until, uh, Christmas. Of 2024' thing plenty. Read it, learn it, promise yourself you'll never act that way and then in the moment stutter out exactly that because you're only human too, move on. Rinse. Repeat. Get a meaningful hobby. 

Roose - she of the 'wait-am-I-her-boyfriend-now?' episode? 

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Comments/advices noted, and they'll be taken into account obviously. They make sense. I'm basically trying not to think much about it - apart from this topic -; sounds better for things to evolve and settle down for good, for our future interactions without idiotic behaviour from me.

 

16 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

This whole thing has not been of the same significance to her as it has to you. I'm sorry to say :(

No need to be sorry. I posted here to have some opinion on the situation, not for people to pity me :) I've had worse, and I'll probably have worse sooner or later, before all this is over and I'm 6 feet under. That she's not as involved or intereted has been pretty clear for a few months at least, after all. And I was also aware that, going into so many details, I was opening myself to a few criticisms - we're not always 100% blameless and perfect in such stories and relationships.

 

12 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

Maybe this is pessimistic or overly critical of people's motives but I feel like if you put the invite out there, and hear nothing back, or get a conditional answer, and nothing happens within a month or so, best to just move on.  

That makes sense in many cases. I'd say the problem is it depends on the context. If you just met someone who tries a passing flirtation, that person obviously won't have any serious feeling towards you, so any kind of deflection should be enough. In the cases of people who've known each other for some time, there's the possibility one has a real interest, which might not be a totally new one that just popped up 2 days ago. And considering how the human mind can easily abuse itself or tries to see a silver lining to keep up hope, if a person has a lasting crush, just delaying the real reply might not be enough with a significant portion of the population - he/she will just assume it's a temporary delay and will keep hoping for a clearer answer some days down the line. I don't blame women who, understandably, aim for the safest option in the short term, nor do I justify sticking to foolish hope; it's just that some people's brains are wired that way. And since it's not always obvious if the guy who asks someone out just tries his luck without any serious interest or if he's totally smitten since a long time, it's very tricky - not to mention that a totally smitten guy can also be a complete jerk douchebag who will lash out if downright rejected.

I suppose it's way easier for men. The times where I wasn't interested to go out for a drink, I was quite clear on that, and didn't worry or wonder if I should be "nice" and say "busy now, maybe in 2 weeks" - but then that's also because, having been in the asking situation a few times, I don't want to leave any doubt when the woman has no chance at all and I have 0 interest. I've never been rude, but now I have to wonder if they thought I was.

Oh, last thing... I might have been unclear that *I* told her that I knew she was very busy and that she should just tell/mail me (some days) later when she'll have checked and have a better view of her next weeks' schedule - she didn't bring it up as an excuse the first time. So, I kind of brought all this upon me myself :wacko:

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Fine, Lackadaisical GMAT Guy, falling in that ¬1% of the population I'm not precisely attracted to but have succeeded in not being unattracted to, which is something, you can join the string of men who think I'm great fodder for chitchat about life and work and politics and whathaveyou and see me every day and absolutely will not ask me out or make a move because who knows why. (Why they tend to be disproportionately Indian remains to be answered, but, because, unlike Lackadaisical GMAT guy I did not postpone but actually took the damn thing*, I might say that globally speaking, the odds are like (1/6)^4.)

Seriously, I was sitting there listening to this guy go on about either joining an MBA or an Ashram (or some plan for both, I think. Clearly cultishly minded,) for an hour, and how I seem to be someone who really deserves a healthy relationship, and I'm going, 'really, I think i'm at this very comfortably stage right now where I just want to have very non-committal short-term fun with the whole human contact thing...' and twirling my hair a lot...and that's all I've got in that department really. So that's me out. 

*Failing at life. Doing well on standardized exams. 

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21 hours ago, Datepalm said:

 *Failing at life. Doing well on standardized exams. 

I can identify with this line very strongly. It is signature-worthy.

Your posts are always very amusing to read.

As for me, there is a kinda sorta boyfriend now. And just today I got a message from the other guy who disappointed me very much last year, asking me if I am in the city again ... why yes, I am, but I am not entirely sure it is safe to meet you and risk my feelings and kinda sorta relationship (which is going smoothly and is a lot of fun for now, but the part where it is not long-distance is very new and it remains to be seen how it works when we actually live in the same country and can see each other as often as we want) - although I would just want to catch up and say hi too ...

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2 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Planning to wow the college boy this evening with a movie he hasn't seen, or possibly hasn't even heard of, fun times.  Made a Hurricane joke to the dude scared of my demon summoning talents and haven't heard back.  I am still *cackling* over it every time it comes to mind.  Had considered allowing him to call and make sexual advances with sexy voice and then play scenes from the exorcist in the background.  Have made plans to summon demon later and relay to said demon funny story - outside the circle first, of course.

Sounds...weirdly awesome. Moreso the latter.

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27 minutes ago, Mandy said:

Planning to wow the college boy this evening with a movie he hasn't seen, or possibly hasn't even heard of, fun times.  Made a Hurricane joke to the dude scared of my demon summoning talents and haven't heard back.  I am still *cackling* over it every time it comes to mind.  Had considered allowing him to call and make sexual advances with sexy voice and then play scenes from the exorcist in the background.  Have made plans to summon demon later and relay to said demon funny story - outside the circle first, of course.

Which movie is it? Is it the Exorcist? 

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