Should Baelor Breakspear have fought for Duncan?

[Valens]

I don't think so. Even if nobody could predict such a tragic ending to that trial by combat, it was still wrong of him to vouch for a stranger, even if he was a good-natured stranger, than his own brother, no matter how foul his son was. He should have just let them fight and found someone else to fight in his stead. He was the heir to the throne after all. And I don't really understand WHY he and Maekar had to fight at all...I thought a trial of combat involves only two men fighting. Another thing I don't understand is that Baelor STILL won, despite getting mortally wounded...incredible fighter.

[Lion of the West]

11 minutes ago, Valens said:

I don't think so. Even if nobody could predict such a tragic ending to that trial by combat, it was still wrong of him to vouch for a stranger, even if he was a good-natured stranger, than his own brother, no matter how foul his son was. He should have just let them fight and found someone else to fight in his stead. He was the heir to the throne after all. And I don't really understand WHY him and Maekar had to fight at all...I thought a trial of combat involves only two men fighting.

I kind of agree with this and while its so chivalrous it makes my eyes wet with tears, its also extremely selfish and irresponsible for the heir to do something like this. While Baelor was skilled enough to have lived, it was only luck that didn't leave any Targaryen dead and opened a bloody rift in the royal House when Bittersteel was still plotting in Essos.

And to that, the perhaps greatest of the the Targaryen kings died instead of living and take over from his father Daeron the Good.

In a way if you like, him entering the Trial by Seven is kind of like Rhaegar running away with Lyanna. Both had more important duties and needs but they throw it all away for a idiotic but very, very romantic or chivalrous enterprise (this if of course only true if Rhaegar and Lyanna was indeed in love as I am inclined to think).

[Valens]

4 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I kind of agree with this and while its so chivalrous it makes my eyes wet with tears, its also extremely selfish and irresponsible for the heir to do something like this. While Baelor was skilled enough to have lived, it was only luck that didn't leave any Targaryen dead and opened a bloody rift in the royal House when Bittersteel was still plotting in Essos.

And to that, the perhaps greatest of the the Targaryen kings died instead of living and take over from his father Daeron the Good.

In a way if you like, him entering the Trial by Seven is kind of like Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna. Both had more important duties and needs but they throw it all away for a idiotic but very, very romantic or chivalrous enterprise (this if of course only true if Rhaegar and Lyanna was indeed in love as I am inclined to think).

Amen. It really was a stupid thing to do and bad timing as well. And the realm lost such a wonderful, gifted, fair prince and future king. He seemed to have all the strengths that Maekar had but none of his flaws...or? Perhaps being too noble and a bit naive was one of them?

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Baelor did the right thing; he stood up for the underdog and helped justice be served, even if it was against his own kin or risked his own life. As for Baelor's death, I blame his fate on Aerion and Maekar. I think Maekar was an idiot for not realizing what a monster and coward his son was. 

[Valens]

28 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Baelor did the right thing; he stood up for the underdog and helped justice be served, even if it was against his own kin or risked his own life. As for Baelor's death, I blame his fate on Aerion and Maekar. I think Maekar was an idiot for not realizing what a monster and coward his son was. 

So, what should he have done, told his son to appologise to a hedge knight? You know what ridicule that would bring upon them??

[Floki of the Ironborn]

2 hours ago, Valens said:

So, what should he have done, told his son to appologise to a hedge knight? You know what ridicule that would bring upon them??

Maekar didn't have to join in the fight and he didn't have to strike his brother whom he knew was wearing his son's armour and was thus vulnerable to attack.

[Ser Something]

A very stupid thing to do, and I think that makes it an excellent story.

If Baelor was almost the 'perfect prince', this was his one big flaw - he took honour and chivalry too seriously, and died for it. Another man would perhaps have interfered some other way, maybe found someone else to fill out the 7, or ending the feud through talking it out..... and perhaps have thought "I wanna fight in this duel.... but no, that's pretty stupid. I shouldn't be getting myself injured or possibly killed."

His interest in honour, justice and not letting the underdog be trodden on was admirable. However his duty ot the realm should have seen him find another way to sort it all out without himself killed.

As of such, he's a great character, and it was a great little story!

And undeniably a real tragedy... We've only seen Dunk in three short stories. The guilt he must feel, and the resentment certain members of the royal family must feel towards him, must both be huge. Hopefully we will see these as recurring themes throughout his future adventures. I'd like to think he will carry that guilt until his death. It will make Dunk a very interesting character. especially considering the high position he ends up in.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yes. Just a bit of human decency.

Of course the decent and smart course would have been to act as the senior Targaryen, ordering Maekar and the KG to cut the crap and either rule Tanselle as the wronged party and Dunk as noble rescuer, or let Dunk and Aerion duke it out one against one.

3 hours ago, Valens said:

So, what should he have done, told his son to appologise to a hedge knight? You know what ridicule that would bring upon them??

At the very least. Sending him to the Wall would be a viable alternative.

[Lady_of_the_black]

If baelor hadn't offered his help, dunk would have lost the trial before the fighting even began. Dunk needed another person, and nobody was standing up. What baelor did was good, maybe a little stupid, but still noble.

The real stupidity in the whole situation was dunk hitting prince aerion in the first place. Seriously.. how stupid can you be to lay hands on royalty?

And maekar, why was he aiming for his brothers head during the trial by combat? I get that it has to be fair, and the men have to actually try to fight, but come on. That's your brother dude.. don't aim for his head. 

[Eden-Mackenzie]

4 hours ago, Valens said:

I don't think so. Even if nobody could predict such a tragic ending to that trial by combat, it was still wrong of him to vouch for a stranger, even if he was a good-natured stranger, than his own brother, no matter how foul his son was. He should have just let them fight and found someone else to fight in his stead. He was the heir to the throne after all. And I don't really understand WHY he and Maekar had to fight at all...I thought a trial of combat involves only two men fighting. Another thing I don't understand is that Baelor STILL won, despite getting mortally wounded...incredible fighter.

It explains in the story, Dunk had the right to demand Trial by Combat, and Aerion, as a Prince of the Blood, had the right to demand a Trial of Seven. If Dunk had not been able to find six defenders, he would have been considered guilty, so yes, as a human and a knight Baelor absolutely did the right thing. Everyone present, everyone who even heard what happened between Aerion and Dunk knew without a doubt Aerion was in the wrong and Dunk was innocent, yet the trial happened anyway, because Aerion was a Prince of the Blood.  Defending the innocent is one of the main charges of a knight. Dunk defended Tanselle, Baelor defended Dunk. The outcome does not change the rightness of their actions. 

As far avoiding the ridicule of having his son apologize to a hedge knight, that did exactly work out for Maekar after the trial. Aerion was banished, and Maekar faces constant ridicule as the sulky prince who murdered his brother. Seems like Maekar could have avoided the whole situation by just admitting his son was a horrid person and banishing him from the start. 

[The Bear]

5 hours ago, Valens said:

I don't think so. Even if nobody could predict such a tragic ending to that trial by combat, it was still wrong of him to vouch for a stranger, even if he was a good-natured stranger, than his own brother, no matter how foul his son was. He should have just let them fight and found someone else to fight in his stead. He was the heir to the throne after all. And I don't really understand WHY he and Maekar had to fight at all...I thought a trial of combat involves only two men fighting. Another thing I don't understand is that Baelor STILL won, despite getting mortally wounded...incredible fighter.

It wasn't a trial by combat, though. Aerion invoked a trial by seven, which was basically an obsolete practice.

Dunk would have died if Baelor hadn't fought on his side because he would have been found guilty for not finding six men to support his innocence. Baelor did what he thought was just. It makes perfect sense.

[Lord Cactus]

A long term standpoint? No. Baelor was needlessly putting himself at risk for a person who was essentially a peasant, all for the sake of honor. Well and good, but he is the heir, and risking his life for chivalry has no purpose for the future king.

Short term? Absolutely. It only highlights why he was really one of the best possible candidates for king. Dunk would've died as a guarantee without him, as he wouldn't even have gotten the chance to fight. Further, it was the honorable thing to do, and Baelor was a man of honor. He wasn't going to let this innocent man die under his watch just to keep himself out of harm's way. Aerion took advantage of his position and needed to learn a grave lesson, and Baelor wouldn't let him kill off this man simply to prove his power over the people.

Not a great choice historically, but a great one honorably. All depends on viewpoint, just like everything else in these books I guess.

[nedfart]

Meh. Better a good death that dying in the great spring sickness shortly after. 

[Donny2Bong]

Maeker had two of his sons against dunk. dont forget that he was also framed for abducting egg. so from maekers point of view it was his two sons vs some unknown knight

[Floki of the Ironborn]

7 hours ago, Donny2Bong said:

Maeker had two of his sons against dunk. dont forget that he was also framed for abducting egg. 

Easily undone by simply asking Egg what happened.

[Rise]

54 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Easily undone by simply asking Egg what happened.

Well egg was little boy and Aerion and Daeron were both grown men. Adults very often believe the older one, even one is drunkard and another is a bit crazy.

[Valens]

13 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Maekar didn't have to join in the fight and he didn't have to strike his brother whom he knew was wearing his son's armour and was thus vulnerable to attack.

You obviously don't know Maekar. He is described as a harsh man, quick to anger and hard on forgiving. He was obviously very angry at his brother for siding with a hedge knight against his own son. I think he deep down inside knew Aerion was wrong, but not supporting his son wasn't an option for him. I guess Aerion told him a few lies as well and made himself the victim. That puppeteer was making fun of him, in Aerion's eyes and most likely otherwise. Maekar wouldn't have none of that and he wouldn't let some hedge knight hit his son and then get away with it. A tragic story indeed...Baelor was too chivalric and just to not support Duncan and Maekar was too proud and prone to anger not to fight him.

[Protagoras]

People like Baelor wouldn´t be people like Baelor in the first place if this "responisible logic" was a part of them.

This is what happens when people who insists on their opinion of truth and "being a good person" meet reality. 

[Artos Cold]

18 hours ago, Lady_of_the_black said:

 

And maekar, why was he aiming for his brothers head during the trial by combat? I get that it has to be fair, and the men have to actually try to fight, but come on. That's your brother dude.. don't aim for his head. 

Maekar was being ganked by two of the greatest knights in the realm. And he had a mace. In that situation you can't really do anything but flail around randomly, trying not to get hit. I doubt he was aiming for Baelor's head. 

[Veltigar]

I absolutely believe he made the right choice. Monarchies are a genuinely atrocious form of government (let's abolish them all in real life). Lord Acton once wrote that power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely. Baelor showed he was the rare exception, he was uncorruptable and stayed true to what a King should be until the very end. It's unfortunate that he got killed, but if he hadn't fought for Dunk, Baelor wouldn't have been Baelor and then he wouldn't have made for a very good King either. It's an idealistic interpretation, but here I can't be moved towards cynicism.