Should Baelor Breakspear have fought for Duncan?

[Valens]

2 hours ago, Artos Cold said:

Maekar was being ganked by two of the greatest knights in the realm. And he had a mace. In that situation you can't really do anything but flail around randomly, trying not to get hit. I doubt he was aiming for Baelor's head. 

Yep, very much so. He for sure didn't mean to hit Baelor on the head, he was no idiot. Nor did he wish to kill him.

[Donny2Bong]

14 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Easily undone by simply asking Egg what happened.

Aerion and Dareon were both men and egg was a child of 8?? and he was already known to lie........ 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

2 minutes ago, Donny2Bong said:

Aerion and Dareon were both men and egg was a child of 8?? and he was already known to lie........ 

Why would Aegon lie to protect a kidnapper? And even if he did have Stockholm syndrome, the Westerosi haven't displayed that they recognize that syndrome for what it is. So they've no reason to doubt Aegon if he said he wasn't abducted.

[Dorian Martell]

On 6/14/2016 at 11:55 AM, Valens said:

I don't think so. Even if nobody could predict such a tragic ending to that trial by combat, it was still wrong of him to vouch for a stranger, even if he was a good-natured stranger, than his own brother, no matter how foul his son was. He should have just let them fight and found someone else to fight in his stead. He was the heir to the throne after all. And I don't really understand WHY he and Maekar had to fight at all...I thought a trial of combat involves only two men fighting. Another thing I don't understand is that Baelor STILL won, despite getting mortally wounded...incredible fighter.

The author and the plot differ with your opinion. He did what was needed, personally and to advance the plot.  

[brightflame princess]

I just reread this part of the hedge knight to jog my memory.

I believe steffon fossoway was to blame. Baelors blood is on his hands. He gave dunk his word that he would be one of his champions, and he betrayed him. The very least he could have done is find another champion to fight in his place, since it's probably hard to turn down an offer from a Prince. How could a good man like baelor, after witnessing fossoway betray dunk and join aerion, not stand up and take his place? Fossoway is to blame, that big fat jerk. Baelor wouldn't have even considered fighting if steffon had been true to his word.

Also, baelor didn't jump right up. He waited to see if another man might join the fight. Only when nobody offered to defend dunk did he offer his sword. 

[The Sleeper]

If you are looking for a more practical reason than justice and honor, taking his nephew down a notch is good enough. Aerion spelled trouble to come.

[The Godswoods ghost]

In my opinion, what made Baelor a potentially good and just King under whom he realm would prosper, was that he wouldn't stand by and watch an innocent person face punishment, even though said person was a peasant, and the accuser was of his own blood. Such was the irony of the situation. 

[Aedam Targaryen]

On June 15, 2016 at 7:43 PM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Why would Aegon lie to protect a kidnapper? And even if he did have Stockholm syndrome, the Westerosi haven't displayed that they recognize that syndrome for what it is. So they've no reason to doubt Aegon if he said he wasn't abducted.

I'm pretty sure it states right in the text that Egg was a child of 8 and already prone to lie. I don't think that was Donny2Bong's opinion, it came right out of Baelor's mouth. 

[Knight Of Winter]

Yes, definitely. People who fight and take risks for causes they believe in deserve more respect and admiration than people who stand aside and watch injustice just happen while preaching agianst it.

Otherwise, I agree with BBE that Baelor could and should have used his authority to e.g. order Aerion and Dunk to fight 1v1.

[Tatheosian]

On 6/14/2016 at 9:55 PM, Valens said:

I don't think so. Even if nobody could predict such a tragic ending to that trial by combat, it was still wrong of him to vouch for a stranger, even if he was a good-natured stranger, than his own brother, no matter how foul his son was. He should have just let them fight and found someone else to fight in his stead. He was the heir to the throne after all. And I don't really understand WHY he and Maekar had to fight at all...I thought a trial of combat involves only two men fighting. Another thing I don't understand is that Baelor STILL won, despite getting mortally wounded...incredible fighter.

It depends from what point of view. For the Targaryans and the Seven Kingdoms, the answer is no. If Baelor didn't fought in the Trial of the Seven, then the whole ASOIAF  events would not take place. Most probably Westeros would have been prosperous and the Targaryen dynasty could have ruled for another thousand of years. But that was not the case which leads to the second of view. That of Baelor. They said that he was all a king needed to be: valiant, just, wise etc. So his honour decided that he must defend the Hedge Knight since he knew better his nephew, Aerion. And also had a plan for winning, thus giving them jousting lances, and engaging the King's Guards since they would not hit a royal blood. So he made this decision knowing he would win, but he didn't. Anyway, it had to happed, so that the story have a sense, an move the action forward.

[Neds Secret]

It was perhaps the most goosebump raising moment of the entire asoiaf experience for me. Finally, a privileged person doing something for someone else because it was the right thing to do. Definitely the highlight of the D&E series, when it became clear that he was going to  fight for Dunk I was extremely proud and began to think about the Targs in an entirely different light, it was an awesome thing to do, and though it ended tragically it still set an example of Chivalry and Knighthood not often seen throughout the world of ice and fire!

[Ser Daegon]

Baelor was a very intelligent man, a capable leader, and he was a man with foresight. It's important to remember that Aerion, while indeed part of the royal family, he was fairly far removed from the line of succession. Being that, Baelor's decision to back a hedge knight wasn't necessarily because he believed in Dunk, but it was more of symbol of what his action meant. Dunk, a hero to the smallfolk, had their support completely, while also lacking support from many of the priviledged nobles too afraid of provoking royal anger if they backed a low-born knight like Dunk. Baelor's support sends a clear message that the unjust maltreatment of the common people is not tolerated, even when it comes from one of royal blood. It was never about Dunk, directly, but what the incident represented. And yes, though it ended his life, Baelor's decision was the right decision.

 

Also: This whole thing had a huge impact on a future king, Aegon V. His reign was symbolic for his support of the smallfolk. He lobbied for an increase in their rights against a decrease in the rights of the nobles. It's unfortunate that Aerys made Tywin his Hand, who then undid all of the decrees of Aegon V and returned those priviledges to the Lords.

[Lion of the West]

2 hours ago, Ser Daegon said:

Baelor was a very intelligent man, a capable leader, and he was a man with foresight. It's important to remember that Aerion, while indeed part of the royal family, he was fairly far removed from the line of succession. Being that, Baelor's decision to back a hedge knight wasn't necessarily because he believed in Dunk, but it was more of symbol of what his action meant. Dunk, a hero to the smallfolk, had their support completely, while also lacking support from many of the priviledged nobles too afraid of provoking royal anger if they backed a low-born knight like Dunk. Baelor's support sends a clear message that the unjust maltreatment of the common people is not tolerated, even when it comes from one of royal blood. It was never about Dunk, directly, but what the incident represented. And yes, though it ended his life, Baelor's decision was the right decision.

 

Also: This whole thing had a huge impact on a future king, Aegon V. His reign was symbolic for his support of the smallfolk. He lobbied for an increase in their rights against a decrease in the rights of the nobles. It's unfortunate that Aerys made Tywin his Hand, who then undid all of the decrees of Aegon V and returned those priviledges to the Lords.

Incorrect

The world books states that Aegon V had to withdraw most of his own reforms and Tywin "only" took away the few that the nobles tolerated.

"It is well known that the resistance against him taxed Aegon' patience - especially as the compromises a king must make to rule well often left his greatest hopes receding further  and further into the future. As one defiance followed another, His grace found himself forced to bow to recalcitrant lords more often than he wished."

"..., King Aegon grew ever more convinced that only with dragons would he wield sufficient power tgo make the changes he wished to make in the realm and force the proud and stubborn lords of the Seven Kingdoms to accept his decrees."

It don't make it sound like many reforms actually passed. But it is true that Tywin revoked what remained.

"Tywin won the approbation of many great lords by repealing what remained of the laws Aegon V had enacted to curb their powers."

Note the "what remained" as it don't sound there was a great deal to remove in the first place, even while it was a pity he did remove what remained.

[Ser Daegon]

9 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Incorrect

The world books states that Aegon V had to withdraw most of his own reforms and Tywin "only" took away the few that the nobles tolerated.

"It is well known that the resistance against him taxed Aegon' patience - especially as the compromises a king must make to rule well often left his greatest hopes receding further  and further into the future. As one defiance followed another, His grace found himself forced to bow to recalcitrant lords more often than he wished."

"..., King Aegon grew ever more convinced that only with dragons would he wield sufficient power tgo make the changes he wished to make in the realm and force the proud and stubborn lords of the Seven Kingdoms to accept his decrees."

It don't make it sound like many reforms actually passed. But it is true that Tywin revoked what remained.

"Tywin won the approbation of many great lords by repealing what remained of the laws Aegon V had enacted to curb their powers."

Note the "what remained" as it don't sound there was a great deal to remove in the first place, even while it was a pity he did remove what remained.

That doesn't make what I said incorrect, rather it reinforces what I said. Yes, Tywin removed Aegon's decrees that gave the smallfolk more rights. You merely went into more detail than I did.

Furthermore, it shows that Baelor's willingness during Dunk's trial, coupled with spending so much time among the smallfolk during that period squiring for Dunk highly influenced his reign.

[Lion of the West]

12 minutes ago, Ser Daegon said:

That doesn't make what I said incorrect, rather it reinforces what I said. Yes, Tywin removed Aegon's decrees that gave the smallfolk more rights. You merely went into more detail than I did.

Furthermore, it shows that Baelor's willingness during Dunk's trial, coupled with spending so much time among the smallfolk during that period squiring for Dunk highly influenced his reign.

The point I wanted to make is that you wrote to make it sound, at least in my ears, that Aegon V got everything he wanted into the laws of the realm and created some mod, and then that meanie Tywin came along to squash it. Truth is that very little became anything and Tywin then remove the very little Aegon V ever got through. The phrase "all the decrees of Aegon V" makes it sound like Aegon V could push them through when the fact is that most of these decrees were withdrawn by Aegon himself.

[Ser Daegon]

23 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

The point I wanted to make is that you wrote to make it sound, at least in my ears, that Aegon V got everything he wanted into the laws of the realm and created some mod, and then that meanie Tywin came along to squash it. Truth is that very little became anything and Tywin then remove the very little Aegon V ever got through. The phrase "all the decrees of Aegon V" makes it sound like Aegon V could push them through when the fact is that most of these decrees were withdrawn by Aegon himself.

Well excuse my brief paraphrase. The point of it was that Aegon's prerogative of working for the lower classes was influenced in part by his uncle's show of support for a lowly hedge knight over a prince of the royal blood. That's kind of the topic of this conversation, not Aegon's reign in itself. 

My point about Baelor Breakspear's involvement in the Trial of Seven at Ashford is that he did it to send a message that it's not alright to mistreat the smallfolk, no matter who you are.

Now if you'd like to start a thread discussing Aegon V's reign and policies, I'd be down for that.

[dornishdragon]

Baelor shouldn't have fought. He knew what his nephew was, a crazy psychopath, but still he was the Hand of the King and the Prince of Dragonstone so he should have stayed out of this kind of fights even if this cause was joust. A man of his position he should have found and persuade someone to fight against Aerion's side. 

Maekar is also to blame on his brother death. Even if the blow he delivered was an accident, as I believe it was, he should have believed more on other people because his son Aerion was already know as cruel even if he behaved well in front of his father. If he wasn't so proud and arrogant about his lineage none of this would have happened. 

However maybe Baelor could have died in the Great Spring Sickness so the history could have remained relatively the same even if Baelor didn't fought. 

[Eden-Mackenzie]

2 hours ago, dornishdragon said:

Baelor shouldn't have fought. He knew what his nephew was, a crazy psychopath, but still he was the Hand of the King and the Prince of Dragonstone so he should have stayed out of this kind of fights even if this cause was joust. A man of his position he should have found and persuade someone to fight against Aerion's side. 

While this is a sound idea in theory, in practice it would be extremely difficult to carry out. Why would a knight agree to fight for a cause Baelor claims to believe in, when Baelor himself  will not? 

Even with Baelor's asking, the man who agreed to fight on Dunk's side would still be opposing a prince of the blood, who would most definitely hold a grudge against any who fought on the opposing side, and I believe Aerion and/or Maekar had already made the rounds of the Knights, explaining they should either fight with Aerion or not fight at all. Furthermore, a man persuaded to fight for a cause by someone of Baelor's status is fighting because Baelor asked him to, not because he believes in the cause.

All of these factors combined would likely lead to a less than stellar performance by whoever Baelor persuaded, maybe not to the extent of Dareon laying in the dirt, but certainly less than Baelor's efforts on Dunk's behalf, and without Baelor, things would have likely gone even worse for Dunk's side. Baelor fighting for Dunk sent a message no other fighter could equal, and forced Maekar to face the uncomfortable truth about his son. 

[Lion of the West]

On 2016-07-05 at 8:40 PM, Ser Daegon said:

Well excuse my brief paraphrase. The point of it was that Aegon's prerogative of working for the lower classes was influenced in part by his uncle's show of support for a lowly hedge knight over a prince of the royal blood. That's kind of the topic of this conversation, not Aegon's reign in itself. 

My point about Baelor Breakspear's involvement in the Trial of Seven at Ashford is that he did it to send a message that it's not alright to mistreat the smallfolk, no matter who you are.

Now if you'd like to start a thread discussing Aegon V's reign and policies, I'd be down for that.

The topic of the thread is not Prince Aegon's emotional and intellectual reaction to Prince Baelor's decision to fight in the trial but if Prince Baelor should have fought in the trial for Duncan against Baelor's own brother and nephews. There's a great difference between the two as one puts Prince Aegon in the focus while the other focuses on Prince Baelor.

On a more personal level I don't hink that Prince Baelor held a defining influence over Prince Aegon's viewpoints regarding the smallfolk. More like it, it was Duncan the Tall and Prince Aegon living many years among the smallfolk that created his admirable emphathy for of less fortunate birth than himself, rather than a singular event.