Lemons and Red-dor ;-)

[MostlyMoody]

3 hours ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

Maybe the whole point of the series is that even if you're a bastard that doesn't stop you from climbing to the highest position

I don't think the point of the story is that power is good, and even bastards can obtain said power.

[MostlyMoody]

When George wrote Danny's memories the most vivid parts are Darry's hands, Grass fields, Lemon tree, Red door and Carved wooden animals. Most of those can be attributed to any place, but George for some reason decides to put in Lemon tree and a grass field - things that you wouldn't expect to see in Braavos, to what? Purposefully mislead us? Or was that a mistake? Did he just not know where Braavos is going to be when he wrote that? Possible, if you are willing to go that far.

I don't really get it. We get some hints that what she remembers and what people tell her of her past doesn't fit, and most people's natural reaction is to try and discredit the hints. "Oooh they had a glass house for the lemon tree, ooooh they had some grass fields cause they were rich."

It couldn't possibly be that people were, wait for it.....lying to Danny about her past *gasp*. It's not like she has a claim to the Throne and could be a useful pawn to people like Doran and Illyrio and who knows who else.

[Rippounet]

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

Why go to the trouble of creating a fake Daenerys?  If she dies, or is a stillbirth, wipe your eyes dry and move on.  She's not that important.  She the younger child and a girl. 

Given the fact that Targaryens have a tendency to wed their sisters (or other female relatives if a sister can't be found), Viserys really needed a sister so that the dynasty could survive (and thus, so his claim to the throne could be credible). It's the little irony behind the incest thing: without Dany, the Targ line could only end (or become less pure at the very least).
So no, contrary to what some people say, Daenerys was always very important. Dany's first chapters, when read with enough care, say just that.
It's the other way around: how could Viserys be desperate enough to sell his trueborne sister? When you first read AGoT, you're lead to think that the targlings have reached rock bottom and Viserys has gone mad. But how mad exactly, really?

Quote

She had always assumed that she would wed Viserys when she came of age. For centuries the Targaryens had married brother to sister, since Aegon the Conqueror had taken his sisters to bride. The line must be kept pure, Viserys had told her a thousand times; theirs was the kingsblood, the golden blood of old Valyria, the blood of the dragon. Dragons did not mate with the beasts of the field, and Targaryens did not mingle their blood with that of lesser men. Yet now Viserys schemed to sell her to a stranger, a barbarian.

So from the very first Dany chapter, there seems to be a paradox. Dany is absoluely crucial to the continuity of the Targ line, and yet Viserys is selling her... And it gets worse:

 

Quote

 

"Look at her. That silver-gold hair, those purple eyes … she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt … and highborn, daughter of the old king, sister to the new, she cannot fail to entrance our Drogo." When he released her hand, Daenerys found herself trembling.

"I suppose," her brother said doubtfully. "The savages have queer tastes. Boys, horses, sheep …"

 

 

Isn't Viserys's attitude weird? Yes, we are supposed to assume he's rather crazy (and he is). But why is Illyrio taking the time to underline the fact that Dany is obviously Targaryen? According to Dany they have lived at his place for six months already... You'd think he would know what she looks like...

It's curious how quickly we forget that Viserys and Dany's relationship was always very curious.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

@Rippounet An admirable job defending the Wall in my absence! 

It's for me to believe that we are still debating the lemon tree thing, if nothing else the quotes (not from the very beginning of the series) about lemons not growing in Braavos and there repeatedly being tied to Dorne should raise eyebrows... The question should be why we have been drawn to this discrepancy.

What seems to be the sticking point for most people is that they already have Jon being the kid who doesn't know his parentage. @Doran Martell said that his is the song of ice and fire, the title of the series etc. But I'd like to point out that this quote happens in Dany's chapter, when Rhaegar seems to be looking at her! 

Everyone seems to see the questions about Jon's parentage raised from the start, but read Dany's first to chapters of Game again, and I think you will see that questions about her past should have been apartment from the start as well...

what all this means and who fathered who is clearly all up for debate... But the ideal that all is as it seems with Dany's past appears to me to be the least likely outcome

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

I'd like the idea that Dany might not be the one whom she thinks she is. Of course there is little chance. Maybe her childhood memories were just a mess and bear more symbols than truth. Maybe GRR Martin wrote it before he noticed the wrong information. But if indeed she was just a girl with Valyrian features who was chosen to pose as a Targ, it will be a huge twist. 

[Katerine]

On 7/2/2016 at 5:22 PM, Rippounet said:

And it gets worse:

 

 

Isn't Viserys's attitude weird? Yes, we are supposed to assume he's rather crazy (and he is). But why is Illyrio taking the time to underline the fact that Dany is obviously Targaryen? According to Dany they have lived at his place for six months already... You'd think he would know what she looks like...

It's curious how quickly we forget that Viserys and Dany's relationship was always very curious.

It is also possible that the reason Illyrio's making such a big deal out of how Dany looks Targaryen is not for the sake of any of the characters in the book, but rather for the sake of readers. This is a chapter very early on in AGoT, and GRRM was probably still establishing what Valyrians and Targaryens look like to the reader. I read it as an infodump.

Also, it would be worth pointing to a thread that discusses the arguments made by people who believe that Dany is not who we think she is, so that both supporters and detractors of the theory can be a bit more on the same page (heh). Here is a thread from The Last Hearth that lays out pretty much all of these arguments. Some of the points are interesting, but others do not seem convincing to me.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

I stumbled upon this interesting tidbit yesterday in Dany's second last chapter in AGOT,  when she has her fever dreams losing the baby.

"...If the cold breath would catch her,  she would be howling forever alone in the darkness. "

Why would the dragon howl?

[No One of Importance]

On 7/2/2016 at 5:17 PM, MostlyMoody said:

When George wrote Danny's memories the most vivid parts are Darry's hands, Grass fields, Lemon tree, Red door and Carved wooden animals. Most of those can be attributed to any place, but George for some reason decides to put in Lemon tree and a grass field - things that you wouldn't expect to see in Braavos, to what? Purposefully mislead us? Or was that a mistake? Did he just not know where Braavos is going to be when he wrote that? Possible, if you are willing to go that far.

 

Check out page two of this thread.  They were originally in Tyrosh.