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Lemons and Red-dor ;-)


BIG_SUGE_DADDY

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The main counter is that she lived in Dorne, possibly having stopped in Braavos only for the same reasons as Marcella.

 

I personally think that's uncertain for a number of reasons, and keep my mind open to any place with green fields, lemon trees, and no obvious impossibility. Right this moment, I slightly favor the Redwyne lands. But it could be Qohor for all I really know. 

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There are many places in-world where lemons are capable of growing, but George has associated lemons with Dorne over and over in the text, so it's the most reasonable conclusion.

Growing up in Dorne is contrary to what Dany believes, so we must question what she knows about her origins. Everything she knows about her origins was told to her by Viserys, and we have good reason to doubt its veracity:

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Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor. But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried. "You are blood of the dragon," he had screamed at her. "A dragon, not some smelly fish."

So here we have Viserys beating her Targaryen identity into her when she was young. This combined with the fact that

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Even the big house with the red door had not been home for him.

points towards Dany joining Viserys after the House with Red Door and only then taking on the identity of Daenerys Targaryen.

So who is she really? Is she exactly who she thinks she is? Maybe she and Viserys were split up on the flight from Dragonstone, and Dany was raised in cognito in Dorne. In which case, why didn't Viserys raise her to know this? And why does Quiathe ask her to:

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"Remember who you are."

If Dany isn't who she thinks she is, then we have to speculate about her true parents.

Is she Rhaegar and Lyanna's second child? The timeline works if Jon was conceived at Harrenhal, with his advanced age being explained by "Bastards grow up faster."

Is she the child of Ashara Dayne? Then who's the father?

Is she the child of someone else? That blood of the dragon had to come from somewhere, so the possibilities are limited.

 

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

There are many places in-world where lemons are capable of growing, but George has associated lemons with Dorne over and over in the text, so it's the most reasonable conclusion.

Growing up in Dorne is contrary to what Dany believes, so we must question what she knows about her origins. Everything she knows about her origins was told to her by Viserys, and we have good reason to doubt its veracity:

So here we have Viserys beating her Targaryen identity into her when she was young. This combined with the fact that

points towards Dany joining Viserys after the House with Red Door and only then taking on the identity of Daenerys Targaryen.

So who is she really? Is she exactly who she thinks she is? Maybe she and Viserys were split up on the flight from Dragonstone, and Dany was raised in cognito in Dorne. In which case, why didn't Viserys raise her to know this? And why does Quiathe ask her to:

If Dany isn't who she thinks she is, then we have to speculate about her true parents.

Is she Rhaegar and Lyanna's second child? The timeline works if Jon was conceived at Harrenhal, with his advanced age being explained by "Bastards grow up faster."

Is she the child of Ashara Dayne? Then who's the father?

Is she the child of someone else? That blood of the dragon had to come from somewhere, so the possibilities are limited.

 

 

 

Im not so sure that the text 'even the big house with the red door had not been home for him' points toward anything at all other than that Viserys has never felt at home anywhere, unless it is back in Westeros. This includes his time at the house with the red door.  

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2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Im not so sure that the text 'even the big house with the red door had not been home for him' points toward anything at all other than that Viserys has never felt at home anywhere, unless it is back in Westeros. This includes his time at the house with the red door.  

That's clearly the common way to read it, but of course his story is full of little ironic tidbits like that... And that quote isn't alone:

All Daenerys wanted back was the big house with the red door, the lemon tree outside her window, the childhood she had never known.

There are others, and while you could say it's all metaphors and references to some philosophical or spiritual journey, I find it hard to believe. 

As far as the best explanation of where the house with the red door is, I think everything points toward Westeros and likely Dorn.

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1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

That's clearly the common way to read it, but of course his story is full of little ironic tidbits like that... And that quote isn't alone:

All Daenerys wanted back was the big house with the red door, the lemon tree outside her window, the childhood she had never known.

There are others, and while you could say it's all metaphors and references to some philosophical or spiritual journey, I find it hard to believe. 

As far as the best explanation of where the house with the red door is, I think everything points toward Westeros and likely Dorn.

I see what your saying and understand these tidbits appear in the books but in this instance i dont apply that view.

I simply believe here that Dany remembers enough about the house with the red door to remember she had her own room, and that Viserys was there to but he had never felt at home in the place. Neither there, or Illyrios manse.

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5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Im not so sure that the text 'even the big house with the red door had not been home for him' points toward anything at all other than that Viserys has never felt at home anywhere, unless it is back in Westeros. This includes his time at the house with the red door.  

George certainly wrote it so that it's open for interpretation. But considering that we never see Viserys in Dany's memories of the House with the Red Door, plus the incongruity of Dany's tormentor living in her ultimate sanctuary, combined with the "not been home for him" quote, I'd say it's the more likely interpretation.

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4 minutes ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

George certainly wrote it so that it's open for interpretation. But considering that we never see Viserys in Dany's memories of the House with the Red Door, plus the incongruity of Dany's tormentor living in her ultimate sanctuary, combined with the "not been home for him" quote, I'd say it's the more likely interpretation.

In Dany's GOT 1 chapter the 'they' she speaks of being taken by Darry, sailing to Braavos, living in Braavos, leaving and travelling around. Each time she mentions 'they' in that whole passage she is talking about her and Viserys. I'm not sure what you mean by 'see' Viserys in Danys memories because we don't get to see much really but a red door and a lemon tree outside but we do hear of Viserys, so when Dany talks of 'they lived in the house with the red door', she certainly means Viserys lived with her to, wherever that was. 

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Not to derail, but lemon trees can grow in colder climates, they just wouldn't produce edible fruits. they would be decoration only. they wouldn't be able to grow from seed, but survive if transplanted. A hearty citrus with a low fruit yield could likely survive (not thrive) Bravos' assumed climate. Wind is beneficial to citrus trees in cold weather because it can keep frost from settling; and in the case of near-coast breezes be higher than the ambient air temperatures.

 

All of this could be explained by a well to do Bravosi with an affinity for gardens and the exotic. He can ship in his own lemons, but may like the appeal of a non-native plant on his property.

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To go back to the OP also, I'll remind the we clue Dany leaves from her vision. 

It speaks of the room she had in the house with the red door. It had great wooden beams with animal faces carved into them. Possible indication perhaps although I've searched for similar reference and haven't found anything directly similar , yet. 

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It's most likely that she is who viserys says, and was brought to stay on dorne for safety, since the martells were pissed about elia and her children's deaths. It would make sense for them to want to help her. It could be the children were separated at first, but reunited in a safer place. 

Spoilers from the princess and the queen

Spoiler

In the princess and the queen, to keep aegon targaryen II and his kids safe when rhaenyra takes kings landing, they separate them completely, and it works. 

It could be that rhaegar and ashara had a thing tho. Grrms comment about ashara not being nailed to the floor at starfall, and she was elias lady in waiting at kings landing could potentially add to this theory.. Here's the exact quote. 

 

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As to your speculations about Catelyn and Ashara Dayne... sigh... needless to say, All Will Be Revealed in Good Time. I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own). As a matter of fact (a tiny tidbit from SOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar.

 

Maybe ashara was rhaegars paramour too, and the mother of dany.. maybe she killed herself once her lover and brother died, and somebody took her child to keep it safe. The fact that barristan thinks she looks like ashara may point to this. I think given the history of female targs trying to rule, viserys called her little sister, because his brothers child may have a better claim.. Or maybe rhaegar made a deal with rhaella to claim the baby, and rhaella just happened to die. 

I don't know tho.. The whole storm born thing and rhaella dying and viserys remembering.. it's all very strange, and none of it really fits. 

Or maybe she was elias paramour. (wow, that's crackpot) All we can do is speculate.. ugh these mysteries are killing me! 

 

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39 minutes ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

George certainly wrote it so that it's open for interpretation. But considering that we never see Viserys in Dany's memories of the House with the Red Door, plus the incongruity of Dany's tormentor living in her ultimate sanctuary, combined with the "not been home for him" quote, I'd say it's the more likely interpretation.

Maybe, I mean the idea is that these memories are from when she was young enough that she barely remembers... Since then she has clearly been told a version of her history by an abusive brother... In that version "they" lived in Braavos... The whole point is that this version is incongruous with her memories of he red door, which do not include Viserys.

1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

To go back to the OP also, I'll remind the we clue Dany leaves from her vision. 

It speaks of the room she had in the house with the red door. It had great wooden beams with animal faces carved into them. Possible indication perhaps although I've searched for similar reference and haven't found anything directly similar , yet. 

I think the take away is:

She saw no thatch, and only a few timbered houses of the sort she knew in Westeros. They have no trees, she realized. Braavos is all stone, a grey city in a green sea.

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Hmm, I'm pretty convinced she was raised by Ashara Dayne in Dorne after being born to Rhaegar and Lyanna. Ned Switched her for the baby he had given Ashara (good old Jon Snow) and took him back to Winterfell. Then Ashara put on weight, shaved her head and became Varys. Okay the last part might not be true. 

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The thing about this whole business is that it is really a non issue anyway.  We know Dany spent time in a bunch of free cities, and that Lemon trees grow in those other cities so her mixing up her childhood memories is not very important.  If Darry took Viserys and Danaerys to Dorne after leaving Dragonstone, that really doesn't change anything anyway, they just spent a little time there and Doran decided it was unsafe for them to stay and so sent them to Bravos with Oberyn.  At best, when Dany is fighting Dorne she see's the house with the red door and shows someone mercy because of it.

The only reason people make a big deal of it is because those people already thought Dany is not who we know her to be.  If you put that notion aside, you can see that there is nothing here.

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2 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The thing about this whole business is that it is really a non issue anyway.  We know Dany spent time in a bunch of free cities, and that Lemon trees grow in those other cities so her mixing up her childhood memories is not very important.  If Darry took Viserys and Danaerys to Dorne after leaving Dragonstone, that really doesn't change anything anyway, they just spent a little time there and Doran decided it was unsafe for them to stay and so sent them to Bravos with Oberyn.  At best, when Dany is fighting Dorne she see's the house with the red door and shows someone mercy because of it.

The only reason people make a big deal of it is because those people already thought Dany is not who we know her to be.  If you put that notion aside, you can see that there is nothing here.

Except that it might put her in a place to confirm someone else's story... Oh I don't know, let's pick someone at random...

Howland Reed, come on down... You say all sorts of secret shit went down back in the day... But you're a little frog eater, who cares?

Wait the badass dragon queen has memories that confirm part of the story... Then maybe we do care that your claims includes a male targ heir, secret identities, that Ned lied and lord knows what else...

(in conjunction, I also think that Mr Lemoncloak will serve a similar purpose in confirming mysteries of the past)

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The books have shown us many times that Dany is the blood of the dragon.At least one of her parents is a Targaryen.I believe she is who we know she is,daughter of Aerys and Rhaella.Memories from childhood are not 100% reliable.I think the key is Oberyn.When he learned about Elia's death,he tried to raise Dorne for Viserys (maybe Darry took the children to Dorne.Dany was a baby then).the year after the war,Jon Arryn visited Dorne and made peace (probably with Doran).Soon after the war (and probably after Jon's visit),Oberyn left.Maybe Martells saw that keeping Targaryens with them was not safe and sent them to Braavos with Oberyn and there they made the pact.Dany mixes the house in Dorne with the house in Braavos.In both she lived with Darry.

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7 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

My theory is that Daenerys is the child of Ned and Ashara

 

Completely agree. This would echo the parallel between Jon and Dany SO MUCH. Basically, they lived each other's life - one a Targaryen trueborn raised as a Stark bastard, and another a Stark bastard raised as a Targaryen trueborn. AND the fact that Ned had INDEED a bastard child after all, even though he never knew about it.

This fact will also put everything else in perspective: Dany is not one of three headed dragon, the three headed dragon is Jon (Drogon), Jaime (Viserion, color of Kingsguard) and Cersei (Rhaegal, color of wildfire).

I just cannot wait for Winds of Winter for some additional clues. But that Barristan quote about how Ashara and Dany have the same eyes as well as the fact that Ashara had a stillborn daughter are there for a reason.

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2 hours ago, King Endymion Targaryen said:

The books have shown us many times that Dany is the blood of the dragon.At least one of her parents is a Targaryen.

She certainly has the blood of the dragon, but that means at least one of her parents has Valyrian heritage. The Daynes, with their purple eyes, may qualify (even though they're likely of proto-Valyrian stock.)

7 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

My theory is that Daenerys is the child of Ned and Ashara

It's a possibility, and well-worth consideration. There are some problems, though:

Some members of House Dayne have blond hair, but Ashara did not. Her hair was dark, like Ned's, and we know how much importance George puts on hair color in family trees.

Another problem is the timeline. George's SSM established that Dany was born 8~9 months after Jon, so when was Dany conceived? After the TOJ? "That sex was awesome, babe! By the way, there's another reason I came to Starfall: I kinda killed your brother. Yeah, it's sad, but cheer up! I can already tell that you're pregnant, but for some unknown reason this baby's very existence must be kept absolutely secret, so you've gotta fake your own death to raise her incognito!" If we move the date of the conception up to when Ned arrived at KL after the sack (finding Jaime on the IT,) we still have to wonder why the baby needed to be raised secretly.

It only makes sense for Ashara to raise a baby in secret if the baby was a Targ (like Jon.) The Worldbook rules out Aerys+Ashara, so then we're left with Rhaegar+Ashara. The problem with that is there's almost no textual basis for Ashara being romantically linked to Rhaegar. She's linked with Ned, Barristan, and possibly Brandon, but not really Rhaegar. The one exception is:

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He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. 

If this is the extent of the background George has laid for Rhaegar+Ashara, then it's not really convincing.

 

 

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