How did Arthur Dayne perish?

[Vvornth]

Well at the swords of Howland Reed and Eddard Stark obviously.

But exactl how did this came to be?

Arthur Dayne is described by everyone and their mother in ASOS to be the finest knight there ever was.

Someone that alone could take down immense opposition. Also he had with him two kingsguards vs Howland and Ned.

Eddard Stark is commonly portrayed as a good lord and field commander, but nowhere is mentioned to be a particulary outstanding swords man. Howland Reed's abilities we know very little about.

To me the odds for Ned aren't exactly favourable. I'd have but my money on the sword of the morning and the kingsguard any day in this bout. So what could have happened?

1. Ned and Howland fought dirty

We know the Crannogmen haave a way with poison. Howland Reed could have just nicked the opposing combatants and they would have gone down. A wild possibility.

2. Dayne and the kingsguard killed themselves/let themselves be cut down

Hearing the news of Rhaegar's death and knowing Ned to be an honorable man the men of the kingsguard realized that they a) had nothing more to fight for (if Lyanna was alone inside) or could trust Ned with Lyanna (if Lyanna had been giving birth to Jon inside). I consider this the most likely event.

3. Howland Reed is a badass of cosmic proportions

He simply handed the kingsguard their asses. I'm silently wishing this is the actual case even though I don't consider it very likely.

Anybody got more options?

[Gholam]

He wasn't paying attenion to Howland, focusing on Eddard, Howland came up from behind and speared him in the back, giving Eddard time to cut him down, I think at least.

[Vvornth]

And five other guys.

Got a page reference for that?

That would make it 3 vs. 7. Certainly making it a even fight, but for someone of Arthur Dayne's repute...

Jury is still out...

[Gholam]

*Pokes my post.*

[The Wyld Wolf]

Some could say 3 vs. 7 is still in favor of the three (Because of who they were) But Ned was actually a good swordsman to have defeated them, and won countless victories at the battle at the bells and other such places. And the fight was close to NOT being fair considering that Ned and Howland were the only survivors.

[Skegg]

2. Dayne and the kingsguard killed themselves/let themselves be cut down

Hearing the news of Rhaegar's death and knowing Ned to be an honorable man the men of the kingsguard realized that they a) had nothing more to fight for (if Lyanna was alone inside) or could trust Ned with Lyanna (if Lyanna had been giving birth to Jon inside). I consider this the most likely event.

I doubt this is valid, because Ned told Bran that Arthur Dayne would have killed him if not for Howland Reed.

[chewietobbacca]

I doubt this is valid, because Ned told Bran that Arthur Dayne would have killed him if not for Howland Reed.

Considering the three killed the other five, and nearly six (had Reed not saved Ned), maybe all seven had it been Reed alone against one of them, I'd say that was quite an impressive fight. Considering that the seven challengers were all well armed and armored, as they were of nobility, one could say it was quite impressive for 5 of 7 to be slain by just 3.

[Not another Stark]

Well, consider the 3 included arguably 2 of the 10 best fighters of the whole world at this time, Dayne and Hightower. Selmy would be one of these 10, and Robert Baratheon and Jaime Lannister possibly.

Selmy boasted, when leaving Joffrey's court, that he could single-handedly defeat the 5 other Kingsguards left at King's landing, if they tried something funny. Dayne was as good as Selmy ever was, and however tough Ned and his buddies, we can't be sure they were that better than an average white cloak.

How Dayne died? As said, I suppose he focused Ned, and Howland Reed managed to backstab him or bash him from behind, saving Ned from a fatal hit, and then both managed to bring him down.

Now, if you want to go into crackpot heaven... There's also that theory that Lyanna was a badass swordsman and actually was the knight of laughing tree, the one who could've won Harrenhal tourney. People wondered how she died, assumed it was childbirth. Yet even if it looks quite plausible to me, I've always found it quite convenient that Ned would come and rescue her right after Jon's birth - and quite weird that the Kingsguard didn't act as if she was dying. So, could it be that the bed of blood didn't come from childbirth, could it be that suddenly the 7 were actually 8 facing the 3 kingsguards - and 6 bled to death?

[The Wyld Wolf]

The knight of the laughing tree was Howland.

from what I remember anyway, from Meera's tale.

[unduli]

This is not actually provably so. There's speculation ranging from Lyanna Stark to Sandor Clegane.

I think the biggest probability is Reed, though. Considering it was emphasized how small the Knight of the Laughing Tree was, I think the only possiblity is Reed or Lyanna.

[Sanoku]

This is not actually provably so. There's speculation ranging from Lyanna Stark to Sandor Clegane.

Sorry about going off-topic:

I have heard of Lyanna being the Knight of the Laughing Tree, but... what would give someone the idea that Sandor would/could be the Knight of the Laughing tree? O.o

Trying to get on topic again:

Reed likely either backstab, posion, or if he was a fairly good warg/skin changer, he could have take over Arthur long enough for Ned to kill him.

[LindaElane]

eh...we can't know this. Maybe the guy was upset about his sister's inclinations and could not concentrate. There are so many possibilities. Maybe he had a headache

[Skegg]

We have never really heard anything about Ned Starks combat prowess, which tends to make me believe he's not some ridiculously good fighter/swordsman, as we hear time and again about great knights/warriors, who is strongest, who is the best, etc. We know he was a shrewd commander, but nothing else really.

However, we hear from damn near everyone that Arthur Dayne was pretty much the best thing since sliced bread. The pure number of times that he is mentioned in the books as being ridiculous from a wide variety of people is pretty crazy. Even Jaime, who has a tremendous ego, speaks as if Arthur Dayne is like the second coming. He even remarks that Arthur Dayne could defeat The Knight of Flowers, Balon Swann, Meryn Trant, Boros Blount, and Kettleblack with his left hand while he took a piss with his right. Yet seven northmen, none of which is ever mentioned as having renowned skill in battle, defeat Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, and The White Bull? Either everyone is exaggerating how good these guys were or something odd happened.

We know that Howland Reed saved Ned from Arthur Dayne, but how?

We know Howland Reed "knew the magic of the crannogs...but he wanted more." He then went to the Isle of Faces to live with the Green Men. I'm assuming from Meera's story that he wanted to know more magic. Perhaps he learned something from the Green Men that helped him save Ned's life at the Tower of Joy?

We have no proof of that, but we were asked to speculate on how Dayne died - so that's my wild speculation.

[Vvornth]

Most likely the answer will come to this in the same instance that the question on Jons parentage is answered, or if we get a Rickon POV (as he is heading toward the marches and in Reeds direction).

[chewietobbacca]

While the anwer will likely be elaborated in future books...

The fact remains that no matter how great a knight is individually, when you're fighting a group of guys twice as numerous in number, things get hard...

Maybe one on two, Dayne would win solo - but when its 7 on 3, and they focus on one guy at a time, eventually the slightest mistep would be a hit. And a hit that brings a guy down in full armor is fatal.

The fact that 5 of the 7, and quite nearly 6 of the 7 (and had Ned been killed by Dayne, Reed might have fallen shortly thereafter) lends me to believe that the fight was fairly even. And don't discount the fact that these northern nobles were probably well equipped and armored as they were certainly at the top of the nobility ladder and could afford the best weapons/equipment. Ned, after all, wielded a Valyrian blade...

[danro]

The fact remains that no matter how great a knight is individually, when you're fighting a group of guys twice as numerous in number, things get hard...

This is one of the things I like best about GRRMs writing.

There are no invincible supermen, as is all too common in fantasy. :sick:

No matter how good a fighter someone is combat is perilous, and it is often the little things that tip the scale.

Even an "ultimate artist of badassery" can be killed by generic nameless guardsman #34 if he has to fight with the sun in his eyes. Or uphill on bad footing, or weakended from lack of food etc.

It's called realism folks.

[Baleran Cole]

We don't know a lot of things about Ned friends at this time.

But they could have been some of the best fighters in the North. Don't forget that few great knights come from the North (Old Gods...). So Warriors from the North may be less known than their Souh equivalents but as deadly.

Martyn Cassel must have been House Stark Master-at-arms, so you can espect him to be quite good with a sword. Add to this that they were 7 vs 3 and the fact that 2 of them barely survived. I think that their victory didn't lower thevalue/strength of the 3 King'sGuards they faced.

It would be a great to have an entire description of this fight. Eddard's dream had always been one of my favorite moment in the books.

[Ripper]

Arthur Dayne was surely a great knight, very possibly the best of his time. But I guess he grew even better after his death, many powerfull men often do. I doubt that no swordsman, however great in skill, can defeat several tested and well armed foes if he don't got some other advantage; as a good position, surprice or the ability to cause terror in his enemies for example. To sum it up I am sure that people exaggerate his prowess in battle, he was just human after all.

Seven against three under this conditions, I don't find the outcome very surpricing.

[Happy Ent]

1. Ned and Howland fought dirty

I believe that's it (as mentioned upthread). But there's a twist to it.

The assumption is that Howland is a warg. If you aren't on board with that, then this explanation does not work.

(Why is Howland a warg? (1) He is pretty magical already before he visits the Isle of Faces. Whatever he may have learned there may easily make him the most powerful CotF-shaman on the continent. That kind of magic involves warging. (2) Meera and Jojen seem to know a hell of a lot about warging. Neither is one. Why?)

If Howland is a warg, he is likely as good as Bran, if not better. Bran can puppeteer another man (Hodor), without any training. Who knows that Howland could do? Could he take over a non-lackwit like Dayne? At least enough for him to miss a single parry? I believe he could.

That's enough for Ned. Moreover, it's enough for Ned without Ned knowing. Ned wouldn't take on Dayne in a rigged fight knowingly. Fair combat is fair combat. Honourable. Yadda-yadda. So I imagine Ned meets the Sword of the Morning in what both think is fair combat. Ned is very much overmatched. But Dayne fumbles a single parry, and Ned kills him, to his own surprise. Only when he looks up does he see that Howland is now completely wasted (possibly a vegetable) because he had just warged into somebody who died. Howland sacrifices his own mental or physical well-being so that Ned can kill Dayne in a rigged fight, but without Ned knowing that he is actually "cheating".

"He would have killed me if not for Howland Reed."

Fits perfectly.

And I like it because it's painful. Not a good way to win. But it had to be done. And it explains why we don't see Howland around anymore. He might no longer be able to walk. Or feed himself.

[Errant Bard]

The assumption is that Howland is a warg

Although anything could have happened, from Howland incinerating Arthur in a hailstorm of fireballs to Arthur being smitten by the rugged countenance of the crannogman and thus forgetting to parry Ned's blows, why use warging when a net, a poisoned arrow, a spear or even a dagger in the back can do the job more smoothly?

(Howland could even have shouted: "Is Lady Lyanna in the tower? Is she alive? well? Where is Rhaegar? Where did he go? How many men were with him? How many knights? How many bowmen? How many, how many, how many, how many, how many, how many? is Lyanna in the tower?" while doing so, for more badass points)