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[Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?


Meera of Tarth

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20 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

@Cron I know something but I don't know if it's the same spoiler as yours

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In the general outline from 1993, Martin said:

"Five central characters will make it through all three volumes... The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow."

but then he said that it was only a general outline, and that things have changed, so, in technically, we don't know anything

 

Oh, yes, very nice, well done!

Yes, that's what I was thinking of, but as i admitted, not 100% guaranteed.

Still, I continue to believe it's overwhelmingly likely that those characters will survive.

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2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

That those characters survive doesn't mean others do not. Cersei was really Jaime in the outline.

This. 

Just because these are the central 5 that GRRM had in his outline as surviving the series doesn't mean that there aren't other - less central - characters that will also make it through to the end (more or less) intact. Plus, this was written over 20 years ago.  What was at one time a 2 book cycle has expanded massively to a 7 book cycle - to say nothing of the changes to the cast of characters (and their fates) that the intervening time will have brought.

I guess we'll all have to wait and see.

 

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Yes, I think we could not tell whether Jaime and/or Brienne will survive or not at the moment.

Given they are knights they will be involved in some action, so that's something to take into consideration.

However, other people (more central) will be involved in danger situations so there is no way to tell who will survive or not.

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On 29.08.2016 at 5:02 PM, Cron said:

I would be fine with Jaime and Brienne living "happily ever after," but I believe it's about 98 percent likely that Jaime is going to die, so I'm already looking for back up guys for Brienne to be happy with, cuz I want her to be happy, and I think the Tormund story line is being set up for that purpose, even though I think you really dislike the idea of Brienne being with Tormund at the end, HAR.

I have read the conversations in this thread, you say that you like Jaime, Brienne and Tormund but you think Jaime will die and you want Brienne and Tormund to end up together because you want Brienne to have a happy ending and that can only happen with Tormund...

I agree that Jaime will probably die, and I think Brienne has a %50 chance to survive. But I don't understand why you are so convinced that Tormund will survive...I mean, you are saying you are not biased, but it seems like you are rational about Jaime, you are rational about Brienne, but when it comes to Tormund you suddenly go irrational and believe that Tormund will miraculously survive...

Tormund is a secondary character in the books, he is an old man (he is older than Jaime) who took his share in life, he had wives, children, and as an old wildling he has nothing else to do in life but die in a battle. He has been fighting in the front in a couple of battles together with Jon Snow, he survived so far but he will die in the next battle...as a secondary character he can't miraculously survive in all battles when all major characters die...I can only see Jon surviving there as the main protagonist, and even that is not certain.

In my opinion Tormund has zero chance to survive...so your claim about Brienne and Tormund ending up together is based on nothing, really. If Jaime has a %2 chance to survive, it's still better than zero chance. I really don't understand why you are tied to the idea that Tormund will survive. Tormund is Thor in Norse mythology-Ragnarok and Thor dies in the final battle. Tormund's survival doesn't make any sense.

And you claim that not only he will survive but he will have a happy ending with Brienne. Why? What is the basis to this belief that everybody else, including the main protagonists will have either tragic or at most bittersweet endings (you are right until this point, GRRM told that the ending will be bittersweet and "all men must die"), but a secondary character, an old wildling with no real future, somehow deserves and will get a happy ending? Come on. I'm sorry but that's crazy talk. 

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Here are the highlights of my predictions regarding Jaime/Brienne:

I think they will consummate their relationship but very briefly and only after Jaime leaves Cersei in a huff after he finds out what she did (blowing up Sept of Baelor) and killing the Tyrells, etc. He'll find Brienne and they will have a very short romantic idyll (which he will initiate--no way will Brienne do it on her own). Then he'll have to go back to King's Landing to try and save the city from more of Cersei's lunacies. Jaime will do several heroic deeds before meeting his end in King's Landing after he stabs his sister as kind of a mercy killing. I like the prediction that she will stab him back (maybe she a knife hidden on her). At this point Dany and Jon/Sansa have teamed up and their forces are invading King's Landing. Brienne will come across Jaime lying somewhere, mortally wounded and he will die in her arms. 

She will have a hand in filling up those blank pages under Jaime's name in the Book of Brothers with all his heroic deeds. 

She may get pregnant and if she does, she's not dying (obviously). She may present her and Jaime's child to Tyrion, who could be one of the few  people who survive at the end. 

Or she may die shortly after Jaime dies. 

Tormund will long be dead before then. 

The real story here is not Tormund. His lustful and longing looks at Brienne were comic relief--the director of that episode said it as such. The real story here is Jaime/Brienne. 

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On 8/31/2016 at 5:15 PM, scotcat said:

Plus, this was written over 20 years ago.  What was at one time a 2 book cycle has expanded massively to a 7 book cycle - to say nothing of the changes to the cast of characters (and their fates) that the intervening time will have brought.

Agree. The plan has changed drastically since than, I guess GRRM changed his mind many times while writing the books.

 

41 minutes ago, HanginginWesteros said:

She will have a hand in filling up those blank pages under Jaime's name in the Book of Brothers with all his heroic deeds.

Good catch. I would love to see it. I'm almost sure that Jaime won't survive the series but Brienne would and she's the only person who knew jaime and understood him.

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4 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Agree. The plan has changed drastically since than, I guess GRRM changed his mind many times while writing the books.

 

Good catch. I would love to see it. I'm almost sure that Jaime won't survive the series but Brienne would and she's the only person who knew jaime and understood him.

Thanks! Yes, the Book of Brothers thing (once when Joffrey commented nastily there was very little in Jaime's entry and then later Brienne read the sparse entry aloud, causing Jaime to answer there was still time for his good deeds to be recorded) seemed like a heavily telegraphed moment to me. And the show isn't exactly subtle at times. 

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8 hours ago, innocence1 said:

I have read the conversations in this thread, you say that you like Jaime, Brienne and Tormund but you think Jaime will die and you want Brienne and Tormund to end up together because you want Brienne to have a happy ending and that can only happen with Tormund...

I agree that Jaime will probably die, and I think Brienne has a %50 chance to survive. But I don't understand why you are so convinced that Tormund will survive...I mean, you are saying you are not biased, but it seems like you are rational about Jaime, you are rational about Brienne, but when it comes to Tormund you suddenly go irrational and believe that Tormund will miraculously survive...

Tormund is a secondary character in the books, he is an old man (he is older than Jaime) who took his share in life, he had wives, children, and as an old wildling he has nothing else to do in life but die in a battle. He has been fighting in the front in a couple of battles together with Jon Snow, he survived so far but he will die in the next battle...as a secondary character he can't miraculously survive in all battles when all major characters die...I can only see Jon surviving there as the main protagonist, and even that is not certain.

In my opinion Tormund has zero chance to survive...so your claim about Brienne and Tormund ending up together is based on nothing, really. If Jaime has a %2 chance to survive, it's still better than zero chance. I really don't understand why you are tied to the idea that Tormund will survive. Tormund is Thor in Norse mythology-Ragnarok and Thor dies in the final battle. Tormund's survival doesn't make any sense.

And you claim that not only he will survive but he will have a happy ending with Brienne. Why? What is the basis to this belief that everybody else, including the main protagonists will have either tragic or at most bittersweet endings (you are right until this point, GRRM told that the ending will be bittersweet and "all men must die"), but a secondary character, an old wildling with no real future, somehow deserves and will get a happy ending? Come on. I'm sorry but that's crazy talk. 

I read your entire post with interest.

(1)  I don't think I said Brienne ending up with Tormund is the "only" way Brienne can be happy, just that that seems to be what's being set up in the show.  Am I guaranteeing it?  No, of course not, but that's my opinion about what's going to happen.

(2)  Lotta talk by you about Tormund and the books.  That's cool, I'm definitely not a person who is super strict about keeping book talk separate from show talk, but to me this conversation was about the show. In the books, Tormund and Brienne  haven't even met.  For all I know, the whole Tormund and Brienne idea is something GRRM himself would consider ridiculous.  I dunno.  But again, in the show, this seems to be what is being set up.  Could it be a red herring, a path that leads nowhere?  Sure.  But it's also possible that this is simple, linear story-telling, and the foreshadowing is exactly what it seems to be, and the show runners are going to match up Tormund and Brienne whether even GRRM himself thinks it's ridiculous or not.

(3)  You are 100 percent convinced Tormund is going to die, it seems.  Okay.  I'm not convinced of that, but I guess we'll both just have to see what happens.  Once again, you make arguments drawn from the books.  Okay.  But the very fact that you mention that stuff shows the contrast between books and show, in multiple ways.  The show is VERY likely to end the story long before Book 7 is out (IF in fact Book 7 ever DOES come out, which I am openly and strongly quetioning these days).   It's very possible the show runners are gonna do whatever they want at the end, and given what we've already seen, and the "butterfly effect" that GRRM himself has talked about, I believe it's quite possible that the final endings will have pretty major differences between books and show.  (Indeed, we already have evidence of some very major changes.  We could make a list, but among other things GRRM himself has told us that the show has already killed off at least one person who will play a major role later in the books.)

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5 hours ago, HanginginWesteros said:

Here are the highlights of my predictions regarding Jaime/Brienne:

I think they will consummate their relationship but very briefly and only after Jaime leaves Cersei in a huff after he finds out what she did (blowing up Sept of Baelor) and killing the Tyrells, etc. He'll find Brienne and they will have a very short romantic idyll (which he will initiate--no way will Brienne do it on her own). Then he'll have to go back to King's Landing to try and save the city from more of Cersei's lunacies. Jaime will do several heroic deeds before meeting his end in King's Landing after he stabs his sister as kind of a mercy killing. I like the prediction that she will stab him back (maybe she a knife hidden on her). At this point Dany and Jon/Sansa have teamed up and their forces are invading King's Landing. Brienne will come across Jaime lying somewhere, mortally wounded and he will die in her arms. 

She will have a hand in filling up those blank pages under Jaime's name in the Book of Brothers with all his heroic deeds. 

She may get pregnant and if she does, she's not dying (obviously). She may present her and Jaime's child to Tyrion, who could be one of the few  people who survive at the end. 

Or she may die shortly after Jaime dies. 

Tormund will long be dead before then. 

The real story here is not Tormund. His lustful and longing looks at Brienne were comic relief--the director of that episode said it as such. The real story here is Jaime/Brienne. 

Your point about the Book of Brothers is quite refreshing. If he ends a hero and the Book is not destroyed, I can see Brienne writing what Jaime did on it, and it would be sad but also poetic.

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11 hours ago, Cron said:

 

11 hours ago, Cron said:

...and the show runners are going to match up Tormund and Brienne whether even GRRM himself thinks it's ridiculous or not...

...it's very possible the show runners are gonna do whatever they want at the end, and given what we've already seen, and the "butterfly effect" that GRRM himself has talked about, I believe it's quite possible that the final endings will have pretty major differences between books and show.  (Indeed, we already have evidence of some very major changes.  We could make a list, but among other things GRRM himself has told us that the show has already killed off at least one person who will play a major role later in the books.)...

I can see that your basis was "the endings will be different in the show".

Wrong. I don't know from where you got that idea, but the endings will be the same. It is not my prediction, it is known:

http://www.bustle.com/articles/84572-will-game-of-thrones-end-differently-on-hbo-than-the-books-predicting-the-future-isnt-just

"Luckily, we’ve been talking about this with George for a long time, ever since we saw this could happen, and we know where things are heading," Benioff confirmed in March. "And so we’ll eventually, basically, meet up at pretty much the same place where George is going; there might be a few deviations along the route, but we’re heading towards the same destination."

" ...Martin addressed the dynamic nature of any adaptation. He described the show and his books as, "Two roads diverging in the dark of the woods, I suppose...but all of us are still intending that at the end we will arrive at the same place."

D&D know all the major characters' endgames, George RR Martin gave them the outline long time ago. They just don't know the details and they make them up if there is no written material to reach those major events and endings. They are not allowed to change the endgames, George RR Martin only allowed them to follow different paths to reach the same endings, for practical reasons.

What you call as "major changes which were made so far" were only made because "they wouldn't change the endgame". For example, the show cut Lady Stoneheart storyline, simply because her role could be given to somebody else or that story could progress in a simpler, shorter way...and that change wouldn't have any effect on any character's endgame. The same thing is true for all other changes. None of those differences changed the endgame.

Both George RR Martin and D&D have confirmed many times that both the books and the show will basicly have the same endings. There is no such thing as "they will do whatever they want"...George RR Martin signed a contract with them long years ago and writers make sure those adaptations won't ruin their stories, before they sign these contracts.

Jaime and Brienne are George RR Martin's star-crossed love story and not only D&D are not allowed to change that, but also they have no reason to change it, especially because their endgame is very likely to effect other major characters' endgames. The show won't make a Tormund-Brienne endgame which doesn't even exist in the books. This is George RR Martin's story, not Tormund's.

And your claim "the show is going in that direction" doesn't have any basis, either. Brienne and Tormund didn't even talk in the show. It was just 2 or 3 scenes I think, and maybe 30 seconds in total, Tormund looking at Brienne. That's it. Both the director and the actors made it clear that those scenes were mostly meant to be funny and it was one-sided.

And you say those 3 funny looks made you believe that Tormund and Brienne will end up together, considering that only 13 episodes left to wrap up everything, all stories of all characters, and given that Brienne is in love with Jaime. You think Brienne, as the most loyal woman in the world who platonically loved Renly for years, a romantic virgin whose dream man is an elegant and sophisticated knight will just suddenly stop loving Jaime and go hook up with a weird wildling guy who wants to wildly fuck her. And you think after developing a love story between Jaime and Brienne in a subtle, slow-burning fashion in several books and seasons, they will just make Brienne end up with an irrelavant secondary character with whom she just met in the final season, for no real reason, no meaning, no connection to the main story.

Again, I'm sorry but it doesn't start making any sense just because you insist on it.

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7 hours ago, innocence1 said:

I can see that your basis was "the endings will be different in the show".

Wrong. I don't know from where you got that idea, but the endings will be the same. It is not my prediction, it is known:

 

And your claim "the show is going in that direction" doesn't have any basis, either. Brienne and Tormund didn't even talk in the show. It was just 2 or 3 scenes I think, and maybe 30 seconds in total, Tormund looking at Brienne. That's it. Both the director and the actors made it clear that those scenes were mostly meant to be funny and it was one-sided.

And you say those 3 funny looks made you believe that Tormund and Brienne will end up together, considering that only 13 episodes left to wrap up everything, all stories of all characters, and given that Brienne is in love with Jaime. You think Brienne, as the most loyal woman in the world who platonically loved Renly for years, a romantic virgin whose dream man is an elegant and sophisticated knight will just suddenly stop loving Jaime and go hook up with a weird wildling guy who wants to wildly fuck her. And you think after developing a love story between Jaime and Brienne in a subtle, slow-burning fashion in several books and seasons, they will just make Brienne end up with an irrelavant secondary character with whom she just met in the final season, for no real reason, no meaning, no connection to the main story.

Again, I'm sorry but it doesn't start making any sense just because you insist on it.

Oh, so true. You have explained it so well. Brienne+Tormund is not gonna happen.

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On 8/9/2016 at 0:47 AM, Le Cygne said:

I don't think she wants to get married just for the sake of getting married, and her father is not making her marry someone. If Jaime dies, she'll have pretty high standards (in her estimation) for another guy to meet. She is a pretty choosy wench.

Exactly.

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On 9/7/2016 at 6:47 PM, Le Cygne said:

I don't think she wants to get married just for the sake of getting married, and her father is not making her marry someone. If Jaime dies, she'll have pretty high standards (in her estimation) for another guy to meet. She is a pretty choosy wench.

A lot of people seem to dislike my opinion that Jaime will die and Brienne will end up with Tormund.

Okay, that's cool, fair for discussion.

Does anyone here have any OTHER proposed matches for Brienne after Jaime dies?  Or would people just rather she live out the rest of her life lonely?

Cuz she is NOT gonna meet another Jaime Lannister.  That's not going to happen.

Jaime said it himself, "There are no men like me."

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2 minutes ago, Cron said:

A lot of people seem to dislike my opinion that Jaime will die and Brienne will end up with Tormund.

Okay, that's cool, fair for discussion.

Does anyone here have any OTHER proposed matches for Brienne after Jaime dies?  Or would people just rather she live out the rest of her life lonely?

Cuz she is NOT gonna meet another Jaime Lannister.  That's not going to happen.

I am of the opinion that if that  happens she will spend some years without anyone before settling with somebody else, somebody who she falls in love with, again; but she won't be with anyone if she doesn't want it or is not prepared.

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3 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I am of the opinion that if that  happens she will spend some years without anyone before settling with somebody else, somebody who she falls in love with, again; but she won't be with anyone if she doesn't want it or is not prepared.

Oh, that first part is so sad.  "Years" of loneliness?!?!!?

I mean sure, of course I agree with the second part, that if she's not interested in anyone or is "not prepared" that's fine of course, but I think Brienne is prepared, and I'm hoping she can be with someone she's interested in so she does not have to suffer MORE years of loneliness.  Hasn't she already suffered enough loneliness??

That's really my point, not that I think Tormund is a better match than Jaime (cuz I don't), just that I believe Jaime is going to die, and I want Brienne to be happy, and I really don't think Tormund is all that bad a guy (in the show) compared to other possible matches that are out there.

Who else IS out there?? Are those our choices, years of loneliness or maybe, maybe, some sort of happiness with Tormund?  Cuz if so, I'd rather see Brienne happy.

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1 hour ago, Cron said:

A lot of people seem to dislike my opinion that Jaime will die and Brienne will end up with Tormund.

Okay, that's cool, fair for discussion.

Does anyone here have any OTHER proposed matches for Brienne after Jaime dies?  Or would people just rather she live out the rest of her life lonely?

Cuz she is NOT gonna meet another Jaime Lannister.  That's not going to happen.

Jaime said it himself, "There are no men like me."

Brienne falls in love with handsome gallant men who are gentle and protective with her. Right know in the show I don't think there is someone with those features.

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