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[Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?


Meera of Tarth

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Also Tywin mostly wanted to have a Lannister heirloom VS, that is the heaviest VS was meant for the heir of CR, not for the king... that's why it's one of 3 fullers. I guess that if you compare the division of Ice's metal over the two swords you'd have about 3/5th for Oathkeeper and 2/5th for Widow's Wail. But the extra 5fth went into width and mass rather than length. It doesn't matter much that Joffrey was still only a teen and not yet a grown man, because obviously Tywin would have wanted to give a king a sword that he would wield as a grown man.

You don't refforge VS into a sword to fit a teen king for only a few months.

As for Jon and Robb and their tallness - Robb was not as tall as Ice yet at 14 at the start of aGoT, but he grew a considerable amount in the next 2 years. Teen boys start to have a growth spurt later than girls, and for a longer time. Most men generally keep adding height until they're 18, some a few inches until early 20s. We have no idea really how tall Jon is at 16, because no Stark relative he's been separated from for 2 years has seen him to make the comparison of before and after, except for Bran and that was only through Summer's POV at Queenscrown. The only eyes through which we've seen Jon to comment on his height were Sam's and Melisandre's. Since he can hold his own in a duel against Mance Rayder in the yard (who is taller than the Lord of Bones) and his dad was Rhaegar Targaryen, I'm pretty sure Jon will end up being taller than average, insofar having died has no impact on halting growth.

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On 11/30/2016 at 2:09 AM, sweetsunray said:

Also Tywin mostly wanted to have a Lannister heirloom VS, that is the heaviest VS was meant for the heir of CR, not for the king... that's why it's one of 3 fullers. I guess that if you compare the division of Ice's metal over the two swords you'd have about 3/5th for Oathkeeper and 2/5th for Widow's Wail. But the extra 5fth went into width and mass rather than length. It doesn't matter much that Joffrey was still only a teen and not yet a grown man, because obviously Tywin would have wanted to give a king a sword that he would wield as a grown man.

Great, thoughtful conversation, I enjoyed reading it all.  Here are my thoughts:

Tywin didn't size Oathkeeper to a Lord of CR, or Widow's Wail to the "king," Oathkeeper was made for Jaime Lannister, and Widow's Wail was made for Joffrey Baratheon, specifically.  

Although I'm a huge fan of NCW as Jaime (couldn't imagine anyone else playing him), Jaime is actually much bigger and stronger in the books than in the show.  It was Jaime's combination of size, strength, speed and skill which made him, when he had two hands, the deadliest warrior in Westeros.  A few others were bigger and/or stronger (not many; as I recall, we are specifically told this in the books) and some might have been quicker and/or more skilled, but when you get two guys in full armor wielding battlefield weapons (as opposed to rapiers, for example, in a fencing match), Jaime's combination and 'total package" were better than anyone else in Westeros.  Quite simply, when he had two hands Jaime Lannister was the baddest man alive.

And that's the man Oathkeeper was made for, not just a future Lord of CR who could, theoretically, be someone totally unsuited to wield Oathkeeper in the future.

Widow's Wail, on the other hand, was made for Joffrey, who IS NOT the physical specimen Jaime is/was, and never would have been even if he had lived.  In addition to information on Jaime and Joffrey in the books, and in addition to what we can obviously see just by looking at at show-Jaime (a full grown man, albeit not at book-Jaime levels) and show-Joffrey (not much more than a slender boy in build, even at 17 or 18 years of age when he died), consider the exchange in the show between Tyrion and Cersei about Joffrey and Jaime right before the Battle of Blackwater.  I can't recall the exact words, but Cersei is upset cuz Tyrion wants Joffrey on the front lines to inspire troops, Cersei is opposed, Tyrion says something like "Joffrey is 17, and Jaime was already in battles by that age" (or was a great warrior or something), and Cersei basically says something like "But Jaime was glorious at 17, Jofrrey is nothing like him," or words to as similar effect, and Tyrion agrees.  (Note also that Jaime was the youngest member of the Kingsguard EVER, at 16.  Truly remarkable.)

Look at it this way, and ask yourself this: If for some bizarre reason Jaime had been King and Joffrey had been Lord of CR, do you really believe Tywin would have given Jaime Widow's Wail, and the much slighter and slender Joffrey Oathkeeper?  I don't, not for one second.  Jaime is Tywin's son, and MUCH more well suited to wield a large broadsword in battle than Joffrey, and their titles don't affect that at all, in my opinion.

Also, I'm not saying you're wrong (cuz I'm not positive), and I respect and appreciate the specific information, but where are you getting the information that Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail are the same length?  Even if it's book-canon, I find it hard to believe that it's show-cannon.  I'd have to re-watch various scenes VERY carefully, but I find it hard to believe the Widow's Wail we saw at Joffrey's wedding shower is the same length as the sword Brienne used to fight Sandor.

Now, the relative masses you give might be correct (3/5ths and 2/5ths)...but think about what that means.  From one perspective, "3" doesn't seem like all that much a bigger number than "2" (they are only one number apart), but actually "3" is one and a half times"2."  That means that if these numbers are correct, Oathkeeper is one and a half times the mass of Widow's Wail, and to me, that's quite a difference.

Consider two men, one who weighs 150 pounds, and the other who weighs 225.  The ratios are the same as what you cite for Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper, but are the men even remotely close in size?  No, not even remotely.  One is well below average size, and the other is well above average size, and the gap between them is fairly huge.

On 11/30/2016 at 2:09 AM, sweetsunray said:

You don't refforge VS into a sword to fit a teen king for only a few months.

As for Jon and Robb and their tallness - Robb was not as tall as Ice yet at 14 at the start of aGoT, but he grew a considerable amount in the next 2 years. Teen boys start to have a growth spurt later than girls, and for a longer time. Most men generally keep adding height until they're 18, some a few inches until early 20s. We have no idea really how tall Jon is at 16, because no Stark relative he's been separated from for 2 years has seen him to make the comparison of before and after, except for Bran and that was only through Summer's POV at Queenscrown. The only eyes through which we've seen Jon to comment on his height were Sam's and Melisandre's. Since he can hold his own in a duel against Mance Rayder in the yard (who is taller than the Lord of Bones) and his dad was Rhaegar Targaryen, I'm pretty sure Jon will end up being taller than average, insofar having died has no impact on halting growth.

I am fine with discussing both the books and the show (some people, I think try to rigidly separate the discussions) but some of what we are talking about here can only apply to the show, cuz we simply are not given regular updates about everyone's height and weight in the books (as years go by, and the kids age and grow), but we CAN see, for examples, Joffrey at 17 and 18 in the show, or Jon at what must be 19 or 20 in Season 6 (indeed, in the books they have not yet even attained these ages, and Joffrey never will)

And here's what I see:  Jon Snow does not have the physical size or strength to wield a greatsword like Ice (I'd be shocked if Kit Harrington is more than 5'8"), and never will. Joffrey did not have the size or strength to wield even Oathkeeper, and never will (or would have, even if he had lived).

Regarding the growth of young men:  In my opinion, the vast majority of boys are fully grown by 17 (some by 16).  I myself had my full height by 17, and I am above average in height.  SOME boys grow until 18 or beyond, but it's fairly rare.  I knew ONE guy who grew until he was 19 (which surprised me, cuz when we were both 17 he was probably 3 or maybe even 4 inches shorter than me, but he coninued to grow, and by the time we were 19 he was almost exactly my height; by the time he was 18 and 19, he was the ONLY guy I personally knew who was still growing, and I knew a lot of guys.).

But that's it.  I don't personally know ANY boys who grew until they were 20 or older. Yes, I do know they exist (I'm a huge sports fan, and sometimes college athletes are still growing at 19 or 20, or even beyond, especially basketball players), but this is very, very rare, in my strong opinion.  In sum, between the ages of 14 and 25, I knew HUNDREDS of boys and young men my age (and a little bit older and younger), and in my opinion at least 98% of them had their full height before they turned 18.

Bottom line, in my opinion: Joffrey was never physically fit to wield Oathkeeper (or any other sword that size) and never would have been, which is why Tywin gave him the much smaller (mass-wise, at a bare minimum) Widow's Wail.

But hey, I view all this as friendly conversation (not an argument, or even a debate), and I hope you do too, and if you've got specific specs on Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, that would be really cool.

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2 hours ago, Cron said:

Tywin didn't size Oathkeeper to a Lord of CR, or Widow's Wail to the "king," Oathkeeper was made for Jaime Lannister, and Widow's Wail was made for Joffrey Baratheon, specifically.  

Tywin foremostly wanted House Lannister to have a VS heirloom sword. He tried to buy one from other houses for years. He also wanted Jaime to stop being Kingsguard and be his heir of Casterly Rock (both in the books and in the show). Joffrey may be his grandson, but at the time of the forging of the swords Tywin didn't know Joffrey was Jaime's son in the show, but thought he was Robert's. So, the more impressive longsword is for House Lannister, his preferred heir Jaime, while the more commonly sized 2 fuller longsword is for the Baratheons of KL.  

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Although I'm a huge fan of NCW as Jaime (couldn't imagine anyone else playing him), Jaime is actually much bigger and stronger in the books than in the show.  It was Jaime's combination of size, strength, speed and skill which made him, when he had two hands, the deadliest warrior in Westeros.  A few others were bigger and/or stronger (not many; as I recall, we are specifically told this in the books) and some might have been quicker and/or more skilled, but when you get two guys in full armor wielding battlefield weapons (as opposed to rapiers, for example, in a fencing match), Jaime's combination and 'total package" were better than anyone else in Westeros.  Quite simply, when he had two hands Jaime Lannister was the baddest man alive.

Strange how you use the books to emphasize Jaime's tallness and strength. But I may not use the same argument for Jon (who is 16 in the books), and how Joffrey could be expected to be as tall as Jaime when grown, and in Tywin's eyes even taller because he believes him to be Robert's son (who was taller and stronger than Jaime).

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And that's the man Oathkeeper was made for, not just a future Lord of CR who could, theoretically, be someone totally unsuited to wield Oathkeeper in the future.

If Jaime becomes Lord of CR then his sons and grandsons would be tall fighters. Tywin has always been about House Lannister and the Lannister legacy.

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Widow's Wail, on the other hand, was made for Joffrey, who IS NOT the physical specimen Jaime is/was, and never would have been even if he had lived.

Why wouldn't he be? He's Jaime's son after all, right? And Cersei's, who's not a tiny woman either. Two tall parents usually tend to have children that grow into tall adults, unless something goes seriously wrong with the genetics (as in Tyrion's case). Muscle can be begotten by training and does not truly start to add on boys until after the growth spurt at age 17-18. In the books Joffrey barely got to be 14, and thus we have a tall, lanky boy (most tall boys are lanky at that age), who would be expected to become a tall muscular young man in 4 years time by Tywin who believes him to be Robert's son, and by the reader who knows he is Jaime's son. The show aged Joffrey and Tommen up, with Joffrey at an age where he would have started to show bulk realistically speaking, but didn't because he's playing an aged up lanky boy of 14.

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 In addition to information on Jaime and Joffrey in the books, and in addition to what we can obviously see just by looking at at show-Jaime (a full grown man, albeit not at book-Jaime levels) and show-Joffrey (not much more than a slender boy in build, even at 17 or 18 years of age when he died), consider the exchange in the show between Tyrion and Cersei about Joffrey and Jaime right before the Battle of Blackwater.  I can't recall the exact words, but Cersei is upset cuz Tyrion wants Joffrey on the front lines to inspire troops, Cersei is opposed, Tyrion says something like "Joffrey is 17, and Jaime was already in battles by that age" (or was a great warrior or something), and Cersei basically says something like "But Jaime was glorious at 17, Jofrrey is nothing like him," or words to as similar effect, and Tyrion agrees.  (Note also that Jaime was the youngest member of the Kingsguard EVER, at 16.  Truly remarkable.)

And why was Jaime the youngest KG? Because Aerys wanted to deprive Tywin from his heir.

Glorious is more about character than build. Joffrey's a cowardly bully.

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Look at it this way, and ask yourself this: If for some bizarre reason Jaime had been King and Joffrey had been Lord of CR, do you really believe Tywin would have given Jaime Widow's Wail, and the much slighter and slender Joffrey Oathkeeper?  I don't, not for one second.  Jaime is Tywin's son, and MUCH more well suited to wield a large broadsword in battle than Joffrey, and their titles don't affect that at all, in my opinion.

This depends on whether Jaime is still Tywin's son and Lannister by name if he were king, and whether Joffrey is still only Tywin's grandson and a Baratheon by name. If Jaime was the Baratheon in name, then he'd get the sword with 2 fullers, and Joffrey has the name Lannister he would get the one with 3 fullers.

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Also, I'm not saying you're wrong (cuz I'm not positive), and I respect and appreciate the specific information, but where are you getting the information that Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail are the same length?  Even if it's book-canon, I find it hard to believe that it's show-cannon.  I'd have to re-watch various scenes VERY carefully, but I find it hard to believe the Widow's Wail we saw at Joffrey's wedding shower is the same length as the sword Brienne used to fight Sandor.

This is a total misrepresentation of my words. I said "both are longswords" and that thereby they are more or less of similar length, give or take a few inches. Longswords vary in length from 33-43 inch. You misrepresented Widow's Wail as a "tiny sword". It's not a tiny sword, because it's called a "longsword", and thus a two-handed sword of at least 33 inches long. It's not a sword made for a child-boy. It's a longsword ultimately meant to be wielded by an adult male fighter. 2 fuller longswords would be the more common longsword wielded by knights, whereas the 3 fuller longswords are exceptional. In order to have 3 fullers Oathkeeper would be wider and have a slightly longer blade, but the length difference is nothing like the absurd image you made of it. What is important to know is that a "longsword" has not necessarily longer blades than say a shortsword, but that the "grip" is longer, so that the grip allows for 2 hands to hold it. Much of the length difference of a longsword is in the grip, not the blade. So, a 33 inch longsword might have a blade that's only 2-3 inches smaller than a 43 inch longsword, but has a grip that is 7-8 inches shorter than the 43 inch.

Jaime is one handed. He cannot grip a longsword with 2 hands at all. Hence, Widow's Wail is perfectly suitable for him, and Oathkeeper is wasted on him.

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I am fine with discussing both the books and the show (some people, I think try to rigidly separate the discussions) but some of what we are talking about here can only apply to the show, cuz we simply are not given regular updates about everyone's height and weight in the books (as years go by, and the kids age and grow), but we CAN see, for examples, Joffrey at 17 and 18 in the show, or Jon at what must be 19 or 20 in Season 6 (indeed, in the books they have not yet even attained these ages, and Joffrey never will)

And here's what I see:  Jon Snow does not have the physical size or strength to wield a greatsword like Ice (I'd be shocked if Kit Harrington is more than 5'8"), and never will. Joffrey did not have the size or strength to wield even Oathkeeper, and never will (or would have, even if he had lived).

Again, I find it strange that you can emphasize how tall and bulky book Jaime is (well was... he lost a lot of that bulk after being in prison for a year), taller than show Jaime, but oh-no when it comes to 2 characters who are not supposed to be fully grown yet for several seasons, least of all in the books, suddenly only the height of the actors counts, especially with Jon being played by an actor since S1 who won't grow at all anymore.

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Regarding the growth of young men:  In my opinion, the vast majority of boys are fully grown by 17 (some by 16).  I myself had my full height by 17, and I am above average in height.  SOME boys grow until 18 or beyond, but it's fairly rare.  I knew ONE guy who grew until he was 19 (which surprised me, cuz when we were both 17 he was probably 3 or maybe even 4 inches shorter than me, but he coninued to grow, and by the time we were 19 he was almost exactly my height; by the time he was 18 and 19, he was the ONLY guy I personally knew who was still growing, and I knew a lot of guys.).

But that's it.  I don't personally know ANY boys who grew until they were 20 or older. Yes, I do know they exist (I'm a huge sports fan, and sometimes college athletes are still growing at 19 or 20, or even beyond, especially basketball players), but this is very, very rare, in my strong opinion.  In sum, between the ages of 14 and 25, I knew HUNDREDS of boys and young men my age (and a little bit older and younger), and in my opinion at least 98% of them had their full height before they turned 18.

Your opinion and experiences is just that: personal and subjective. Height and growth in relation to age is one of the most observed measurements and kept in records for statistics. The growth spurt of men starts 2 years later than girls on average, lasts longer than girls on average, and indeed ends around 18 on average, but men can still add an inch or two between the age of 18 and 20-21. Chances of that happening to a man is higher with a man who has "tall"-genes to begin with and have no shortage in acquiring nutrients. The same principle is true for women. The growth spurt of girls starts earlier and ends earlier (around age 16-17). Many girls dream of adding an inch after age 16 and most won't. But a significant minority will still add inches between 16-18 though not as rapidly anymore as during their growth spurt. This tends to happen to girls who have "tall" genes and have no shortage in acquiring nutrients. It all depends on the tallness you can maximize out of the genes. 

For instance. If the average length of a man is 5 ft 7, and a boy has average genes when it comes to tallness, he'll start his growth spurt at the average age of 13-14 and will likely have maximized his length by the end of the spurt and thus age 17-18. Then you have a boy who  has "tall" genes and could maximize his length to 6ft 10. Both boys start around the same height (4ft 11). Let's say the "tall" gene boy has one inch ahead of the average boy (in fact, they might even start the spurt being "smaller"), so he starts at 5ft. That boy won't necesarily start his growth spurt earlier, but still at 13-14 (heck possibly even a year later) and his growth spurt won't end later either. And So, boy 1 grows 8 inches in 3-4 years. If all growth would truly stop for everyone at the end of the growth spurt, then boy 2 would add 22 inches in the same time, averaging 5.5 inch a year extra for 4 years. Even though there are differences in spurts, there are some physical limitations as well. They call it spurts because there's a period of packing height in a few months, and then it halts for a moment to readjust the rest of the body, to then add inches again for a period.

Boy 1 probably will have his spurts between 14-16, and will add a few extra inches between 16-18. Boy 2 will have his spurts between 14-18 and will add a few extra inches between 18-20. And that's why those tall basket players still add in length after 18. Boy 1 might even be taller than Boy 2, despite Boy 2's headstart of an inch, the first 2 years of the growth spurt. But Boy 2 begins to truly gain on Boy 1 at age 16 and passes him by beyond that. And Boy 1 will mostly notice that Boy 2 is over 6ft5 at 18, than that he'll notice Boy 2 grew from 6ft8 to 6ft10 between 18-20, especially because Boy1 goes to college in this state and Boy 2 goes to college in another state after HS, and they don't meet again until 5 years later at some HS reunion. And unless Boy 2 has been in the papers as a sport's player (basketball, football), Boy 1 certainly would not know that Boy 2 grew some extra after 18.

Now let's apply that to Jon and Joffrey. Joffrey has "tall" genes - from Jaime and Cersei who both have "tall" genes. Tywin can expect Joffrey to grow between "tall" and "exceptionally tall" because he believes the father to be "exceptionally tall" and Cersei is "tall". Jon is only compared to Ned in height (Stark height) at the age 14 in aGoT, so before he has any significant growth spurt. Ned is "average" height (and wielded Ice for ceremonial purposes) and Lyanna would be "average" too. Jon's real father is Rhaegar, an "exceptionally tall" man, of a family that tends to be "exceptionally tall". Though it's unlikely that Jon will be "exceptionally tall", he'll likely end up being "tall" rather than aveerage. And in fact the "bastard sword" Longclaw that Jon wields shows he's tall enough to wield a longsword at age 15. George clarifies Longclaw is a "one-and-a-halfer" (meaing 1.5 hand grip). Those swords are classified as "longswords" of at least 33 inch, but a shorter grip than a two-hander. He's 16  in aDwD, and not yet done growing.

 

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23 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Tywin foremostly wanted House Lannister to have a VS heirloom sword. He tried to buy one from other houses for years. He also wanted Jaime to stop being Kingsguard and be his heir of Casterly Rock (both in the books and in the show). Joffrey may be his grandson, but at the time of the forging of the swords Tywin didn't know Joffrey was Jaime's son in the show, but thought he was Robert's. So, the more impressive longsword is for House Lannister, his preferred heir Jaime, while the more commonly sized 2 fuller longsword is for the Baratheons of KL.  

It is possible that if Tywin was part of this conversation, he would tell us the truth is some combination of what we are saying.  I do not dispute what you are saying about Tywin wanting a VS sword for House Lannister, and it is logical to assume Tywin would want the bigger and grander sword to go to House Lannister, but that does not disprove the things I am saying, all of which I stand by.

I think we're at a point where the "correct" answer in Tywin's mind COULD be (a) what I am saying, or (b) what you are saying, or (c) some combination of what we are saying, and we can't know for sure which it is unless one of us is able to produce highly specific canon information.  I do not claim to be able to do that easily or offhand, and am not going to spend the time it would take trying to track it down.  If you've got information proving you are right and I am completely wrong (even given the possibility that that we are both partially right) then I would be interested in reading it.

23 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Strange how you use the books to emphasize Jaime's tallness and strength. But I may not use the same argument for Jon (who is 16 in the books), and how Joffrey could be expected to be as tall as Jaime when grown, and in Tywin's eyes even taller because he believes him to be Robert's son (who was taller and stronger than Jaime).

As I said, I have no problem discussing books and show, but we KNOW that the books and show contradict each other in certain ways, and I think we have to be careful about that.  Let me give you an example.  The books give us certain information about Joffrey at 14, and that's fine, but we CANNOT extrapolate that information to conclude that show-Joffrey at 18 years of age would be something different from how we SAW show-Joffrey at 18 years of age.  In the show, we SEE Joffrey at 17 and 18 years of age, and he s NOT tall or powerfully built.  We are told (in the Cersei/Tyrion conversation I mentioned) that show-Joffrey was 17 at the Battle of Blackwater, as I strongly recall, and he is a very physically unimposing slender, boyish, figure.  When he dies (Purple Wedding), very likely at 18 years of age, we SEE him, and he looks...the same as before, far as I could tell.

I guess it's possible that in the books Joffrey might theoreically have grown into a large strong man by the age of 18 (of course we'll never know, cuz he died). but we KNOW that is not true of show-Joffrey, cuz we SAW him at 18.

23 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

If Jaime becomes Lord of CR then his sons and grandsons would be tall fighters. Tywin has always been about House Lannister and the Lannister legacy.

Why wouldn't he be? He's Jaime's son after all, right? And Cersei's, who's not a tiny woman either. Two tall parents usually tend to have children that grow into tall adults, unless something goes seriously wrong with the genetics (as in Tyrion's case). Muscle can be begotten by training and does not truly start to add on boys until after the growth spurt at age 17-18. In the books Joffrey barely got to be 14, and thus we have a tall, lanky boy (most tall boys are lanky at that age), who would be expected to become a tall muscular young man in 4 years time by Tywin who believes him to be Robert's son, and by the reader who knows he is Jaime's son. The show aged Joffrey and Tommen up, with Joffrey at an age where he would have started to show bulk realistically speaking, but didn't because he's playing an aged up lanky boy of 14.

A lot of what you wrote there I responded to above, but your last sentence which says "with Joffrey at an age where he would have started to show bulk realistically speaking, but didn't because he's playing an aged up lanky boy of 14," please know my understanding is that is simply incorrect.  My understanding is that at the Battle of Blackwater in the show, we are told Joffrey is 17, and that was Season Two (it is either flat out said or necessarily implied, cuz otherwise Cersei and Tyrion's conversation is irrational; why would they be comparing Joffrey at 14 or 15 or 16 to Jaime at 17?)

23 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And why was Jaime the youngest KG? Because Aerys wanted to deprive Tywin from his heir.

My very strong understanding is that Jaime earned his Kingsguard position based on pure merit. I suppose it's possible that, by happy coincidence (from Aerys' point of view) it also deprived Tywin of his oldest son, but I cannot recall any suggestion in books or show that Jaime Lannister was anything other than fully worthy of his Kingsguard position at 16, and that that was not only remarkable in the history of Westeros, but actually unprecedented. 

23 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Glorious is more about character than build. Joffrey's a cowardly bully.

Cersei and Tyrion were not talking about Jaime's and Joffrey's "character," they were talking about their fighting prowess and ability to protect themselves on a battlefield.   To me, that was obvious.  As I've basically said, Cersei was terrified that Joffrey was going to die, and when Tyrion mentioned Jaime it was NOT b/c Cersei believed Jaime had better character that she objected to what Tyrion said, it was b/c any comparison of Jaime's and Joffrey's fighting skills on a battlefield (both at the age of 17) would be absurd. I'm pretty sure the reason Cersei was afraid Joffrey was going to die at the Battle of Blackwater was NOT b/c Cersei thought Joffrey was lacking in character, it was because he was a small, weak and badly untrained "fighter," all in direct contrast to glorious Jaime (or whatever word they used), 

23 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

This depends on whether Jaime is still Tywin's son and Lannister by name if he were king, and whether Joffrey is still only Tywin's grandson and a Baratheon by name. If Jaime was the Baratheon in name, then he'd get the sword with 2 fullers, and Joffrey has the name Lannister he would get the one with 3 fullers.

Interesting theory.  I believe otherwise.  If you have specific information, I would be very interested to read it.

23 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

This is a total misrepresentation of my words. I said "both are longswords" and that thereby they are more or less of similar length, give or take a few inches. Longswords vary in length from 33-43 inch. You misrepresented Widow's Wail as a "tiny sword". It's not a tiny sword, because it's called a "longsword", and thus a two-handed sword of at least 33 inches long. It's not a sword made for a child-boy. It's a longsword ultimately meant to be wielded by an adult male fighter. 2 fuller longswords would be the more common longsword wielded by knights, whereas the 3 fuller longswords are exceptional. In order to have 3 fullers Oathkeeper would be wider and have a slightly longer blade, but the length difference is nothing like the absurd image you made of it. What is important to know is that a "longsword" has not necessarily longer blades than say a shortsword, but that the "grip" is longer, so that the grip allows for 2 hands to hold it. Much of the length difference of a longsword is in the grip, not the blade. So, a 33 inch longsword might have a blade that's only 2-3 inches smaller than a 43 inch longsword, but has a grip that is 7-8 inches shorter than the 43 inch.

Let's try to clear up what I think is a misunderstanding about what you previously said.  Here's a copy and paste from your comment last Wednesday  "But the extra 5fth went into width and mass rather than length."  I suppose I took that statement to mean you were saying the two swords were the same length,  If I misunderstood, that's unfortunate, and I apologize.

For my part, however, I will be VERY surprised if you can direct me to where I allegedly said Widow's Wail is a "tiny sword" (which you not only said I "misrepresent," but you actually put quotes on it), cuz even though I'm not going to go back and re-read every word of my lengthy posts on this subject, I'll be stunned if I said WW is a "tiny sword," most notably cuz it's NOT TRUE.  Needle is a tiny sword, MUCH smaller and lighter than even Widow's Wail, and I will be shocked if I called WW "tiny."  At most, WW is an average sized sword which Joffrey (a physically weak and undersized male of 18 at the time) was able to easily swing about with one hand at his wedding shower.

23 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Jaime is one handed. He cannot grip a longsword with 2 hands at all. Hence, Widow's Wail is perfectly suitable for him, and Oathkeeper is wasted on him.

You claim Oathkeeper is wasted on Jaime, but despite your claim, note that Tywin did in fact give Oathkeeper to Jaime, and certainly Jaime did not say "Thanks anyway, Dad, but I just can't use that thing, I've only got one hand."  Then he gives it to Brienne before we see him using it in any way.  Again, Jaime is a very strong man, and from what I saw of it I think Jaime could use Oathkeeper.  Further, IF there is any video of Brienne using it one-handed (say, during her fight with the Hound), or a mention of such a thing in the books, then I will consider that conclusive proof that Jaime could use it one-handed, too. 

23 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Again, I find it strange that you can emphasize how tall and bulky book Jaime is (well was... he lost a lot of that bulk after being in prison for a year), taller than show Jaime, but oh-no when it comes to 2 characters who are not supposed to be fully grown yet for several seasons, least of all in the books, suddenly only the height of the actors counts, especially with Jon being played by an actor since S1 who won't grow at all anymore.

It is very reasonable to assume that book-Jaime and show-Jaime regained their size and strength after being released from captivity. VERY reasonable.  Indeed, I can assure you for a fact (as a long time fitness and strength enthusiast) that it is FAR easier to regain size and strength you once had but lost than it is to gain it in the first place.  FAR easier.  it's not even close.  An extremely poweful man who lifts heavy weights regularly might take 10 years to reach a certain strength level, then take a year off and atrophy dramatically, but if he resumes his strength training it won't take him 10 years to get back to where is was again, no way.  In all likelihood, he could probably regain it in 6 months or less, depending on nutrition and other factors (there are physical, biological reasons for this that I am not going to get into, but I guarantee it is true)

Regarding the rest here, as I've said above, we cannot reasonably extrapolate book infomation into the show in a way that contradicts what we are obviously and indisputably seeing on the t.v. screen in front of us.  In the show, by Season 2 or 3, Joffrey and Jon ARE both almost definitely full grown.  I note from your post that you and I seem to actually be pretty close on at least one thing:  Most males are full grown by 17 or 18, and while some may grow beyond those ages, it's rare.  Well, show-Joffrey is 17 in Season 2 and likely 18 at the Purple Wedding, and Jon is even older (Jon is probably 19, I think, by Season 2, and probably 22 or 23 by Season 7, at which time he looks tthe same size to me as  Season One, which is not surprising, cuz Kit Harrington is not growing, so far as I know.

Show-Joffrey, by Seasons 2 and 3, is not merely an aged up 14 year old lanky boy, his show-age IS 17.  But it's still anothery year (Season 3) when we see Joffrey with Widow's Wail (at 18 years of age), at his wedding shower, and he looks completely she same to me.

I suppose it is possible that a person may dislike the fact that the show chose older actors to play Jon (Kit Harrington) and Joffrey (Jack Gleeson), but I don't think that means we can fairly assume that show-Joffrey or show-Jon are actually bigger than what we are obviously seeing on the t.v. screens in front of us.  Rather, they are what they are.  IF book-Jon ever grows to have a tall and heavy build, that will be an inconsistency between books and show, plain and simple, and it won't be the first (show-Robert, as I understand it, is MUCH shorter than book-Robert, even though, as with NCW and Jaime, I have no complaints about the casting of Mark Addy.  I thought Addy did a great job, I just wish the show runners had given him about four to six thick books to stand on while he filmed his standing scenes, which would have been EASY to do.  Or "elevator shoes" to give him 3 to 5 more inches.) 

23 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Your opinion and experiences is just that: personal and subjective. Height and growth in relation to age is one of the most observed measurements and kept in records for statistics. The growth spurt of men starts 2 years later than girls on average, lasts longer than girls on average, and indeed ends around 18 on average, but men can still add an inch or two between the age of 18 and 20-21. Chances of that happening to a man is higher with a man who has "tall"-genes to begin with and have no shortage in acquiring nutrients. The same principle is true for women. The growth spurt of girls starts earlier and ends earlier (around age 16-17). Many girls dream of adding an inch after age 16 and most won't. But a significant minority will still add inches between 16-18 though not as rapidly anymore as during their growth spurt. This tends to happen to girls who have "tall" genes and have no shortage in acquiring nutrients. It all depends on the tallness you can maximize out of the genes. 

For instance. If the average length of a man is 5 ft 7, and a boy has average genes when it comes to tallness, he'll start his growth spurt at the average age of 13-14 and will likely have maximized his length by the end of the spurt and thus age 17-18. Then you have a boy who  has "tall" genes and could maximize his length to 6ft 10. Both boys start around the same height (4ft 11). Let's say the "tall" gene boy has one inch ahead of the average boy (in fact, they might even start the spurt being "smaller"), so he starts at 5ft. That boy won't necesarily start his growth spurt earlier, but still at 13-14 (heck possibly even a year later) and his growth spurt won't end later either. And So, boy 1 grows 8 inches in 3-4 years. If all growth would truly stop for everyone at the end of the growth spurt, then boy 2 would add 22 inches in the same time, averaging 5.5 inch a year extra for 4 years. Even though there are differences in spurts, there are some physical limitations as well. They call it spurts because there's a period of packing height in a few months, and then it halts for a moment to readjust the rest of the body, to then add inches again for a period.

Boy 1 probably will have his spurts between 14-16, and will add a few extra inches between 16-18. Boy 2 will have his spurts between 14-18 and will add a few extra inches between 18-20. And that's why those tall basket players still add in length after 18. Boy 1 might even be taller than Boy 2, despite Boy 2's headstart of an inch, the first 2 years of the growth spurt. But Boy 2 begins to truly gain on Boy 1 at age 16 and passes him by beyond that. And Boy 1 will mostly notice that Boy 2 is over 6ft5 at 18, than that he'll notice Boy 2 grew from 6ft8 to 6ft10 between 18-20, especially because Boy1 goes to college in this state and Boy 2 goes to college in another state after HS, and they don't meet again until 5 years later at some HS reunion. And unless Boy 2 has been in the papers as a sport's player (basketball, football), Boy 1 certainly would not know that Boy 2 grew some extra after 18.

Now let's apply that to Jon and Joffrey. Joffrey has "tall" genes - from Jaime and Cersei who both have "tall" genes. Tywin can expect Joffrey to grow between "tall" and "exceptionally tall" because he believes the father to be "exceptionally tall" and Cersei is "tall". Jon is only compared to Ned in height (Stark height) at the age 14 in aGoT, so before he has any significant growth spurt. Ned is "average" height (and wielded Ice for ceremonial purposes) and Lyanna would be "average" too. Jon's real father is Rhaegar, an "exceptionally tall" man, of a family that tends to be "exceptionally tall". Though it's unlikely that Jon will be "exceptionally tall", he'll likely end up being "tall" rather than aveerage. And in fact the "bastard sword" Longclaw that Jon wields shows he's tall enough to wield a longsword at age 15. George clarifies Longclaw is a "one-and-a-halfer" (meaing 1.5 hand grip). Those swords are classified as "longswords" of at least 33 inch, but a shorter grip than a two-hander. He's 16  in aDwD, and not yet done growing.

 

To my memory, I did not dispute or contradict anything you said about females or a comparison of young males to young females on these issues.

Regarding the rest:  I stand by everything I have said about my empirical observations.  I am not basing my views on a few young guys I once knew here and there, I am basing it on hundreds of young males in the age range I specified while I was roughly in that same age range myself (in schools).

Bottom line:  Book-Joffrey MIGHT have grown subtsantially larger, but we will never know (cuz he died at such a young age).  Show-Joffrey was almost definitely full grown (at 18 years of age) when he died, and he was NOT tall or large even though he was almost definitely full grown.  Book-Jon might grow tall and large, but if he does it will contradict the show, cuz show-Jon is almost DEFINITELY full grown (my goodness, by Season 6 he must be at least 22 or 23), and he is NOT tall or large (a person might dislike the fact that an approximately 5'8" actor, by my estimate, is portraying a 22 or 23 year old Jon Snow, but that is what we are being given, and I have no problem at all with Kit Harrington)

Finally, note also that I believe medieval type weapons WERE (and logically are) sized to their wielder, roughly speaking.  Show-Jon could never realistically wield Ice in battle, it's too big for him.  Can you imagine him wearing it in a scabbard at his side?  It would drag along the ground next to him, and I believe even a sword the size of Oathkeeper would be too big for Jon too, for similar reasons.

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Bottom line is that your observations aren't objective. You haven't gathered and measured and interviewed these men yearly and kept notes of it, even after they went their own way after HS. I'm not basing my explanation on growth on personal experience, but on what scientists and doctors and the medical world give as estimates regarding final height in relation to age, whether male or female over million of men across decade after decade. You're basically saying that your very loose (and ultimately subjective) observations are more correct than perhaps the most statistically gathered data since the late 1800s all over the world, including development countries and medical conclusions and estimates made out of it.

 

2 hours ago, Cron said:

It is possible that if Tywin was part of this conversation, he would tell us the truth is some combination of what we are saying.  I do not dispute what you are saying about Tywin wanting a VS sword for House Lannister, and it is logical to assume Tywin would want the bigger and grander sword to go to House Lannister, but that does not disprove the things I am saying, all of which I stand by.

I think we're at a point where the "correct" answer in Tywin's mind COULD be (a) what I am saying, or (b) what you are saying, or (c) some combination of what we are saying, and we can't know for sure which it is unless one of us is able to produce highly specific canon information.  I do not claim to be able to do that easily or offhand, and am not going to spend the time it would take trying to track it down.  If you've got information proving you are right and I am completely wrong (even given the possibility that that we are both partially right) then I would be interested in reading it.

Here are the book quotes about Tywin wanting a VS sword for House Lannister as heirloom

 
Quote
 "Valyrian steel?"
"Yes," Lord Tywin said, in a tone of deep satisfaction.
At long last, Father? Valyrian steel blades were scarce and costly, yet thousands remained in the world, perhaps two hundred in the Seven Kingdoms alone. It had always irked his father that none belonged to House Lannister. The old Kings of the Rock had owned such a weapon, but the greatsword Brightroar had been lost when the second King Tommen carried it back to Valyria on his fool's quest. He had never returned; nor had Uncle Gery, the youngest and most reckless of his father's brothers, who had gone seeking after the lost sword some eight years past.
Thrice at least Lord Tywin had offered to buy Valyrian longswords from impoverished lesser houses, but his advances had always been firmly rebuffed. The little lordlings would gladly part with their daughters should a Lannister come asking, but they cherished their old family swords. (aSoS, Tyrion IV)
 

Thrice he tried to buy one from lesser houses, and his younger brother went looking for the one that House Lannister lost (to never return). Tywin's primarly concern was to have a VS sword for House Lannister. He didn't offer to buy a VS sword from the other houses, nor lost his younger brother, to give Joffrey a sword, but one for the Lord of CR, which Tywin always planned to be Jaime. But Ice was a greatsword with enough steel to reforge two longswords. So, first objective is to get the most impressive longsword for House Lannister and his desired heir, Jaime, Joffrey's sword is a by-thought. There wasn't enough to get a dagger out of it for Tyrion.

Mind you: the book estimates there are 200 VS "blades" in Westeros (including daggers). In the show there are only a dozen (before Ice was split into 2)

As for the length. This is what you said.

On 29-11-2016 at 8:52 AM, Cron said:

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that Oathkeeper is a full size sword, but Widow's Wail was much smaller.   When Joffrey had it at his wedding shower (when he rec'd gifts, including the book from Tyrion that he chopped up with Widow's Wail), it was a MUCH smaller sword than Oathkeeper.  As I recall, Joffrey was swinging it around quite easily with one hand.

In other words you thought of as Oathkeeper as a "full size sword" and Widow's Waill as a "MUCH smaller" sword that you implied is not "full size". Now you're trying to deny you believed Widow's Wail was a child's tool.
And yes you are wrong about that.
 
Quote
The armorer bent over the table and unfolded the bundle of oilcloth, to reveal a second longsword.
Tyrion put down Joffrey's sword and took up the other. If not twins, the two were at least close cousins. This one was thicker and heavier, a half-inch wider and three inches longer, but they shared the same fine clean lines and the same distinctive color, the ripples of blood and night. Three fullers, deeply incised, ran down the second blade from hilt to point; the king's sword had only two. Joff's hilt was a good deal more ornate, the arms of its crossguard done as lions' paws with ruby claws unsheathed, but both swords had grips of finely tooled red leather and gold lions' heads for pommels. (aSoS, Tyrion IV)
 
The reason why it swings so easily, is not its size, but the fact that it is made from Valyrian Steel.
 
Quote

 

He was better than Pyg, but he had only a short throwing spear, and she had a Valyrian steel blade. Oathkeeper was alive in her hands. She had never been so quick. The blade became a grey blur. He wounded her in the shoulder as she came at him, but she slashed off his ear and half his cheek, hacked the head off his spear, and put a foot of rippled steel into his belly through the links of the chain mail byrnie he was wearing. (aFfC, Brienne IV)
"If it please my lord," Ser Hyle said, "I watched her fight the Mummers. She is stronger than most men, and quick—"
"The sword is quick," Tarly snapped. "That is the nature of Valyrian steel. Stronger than most men? Aye. She's a freak of nature, far be it from me to deny it." (aFfC, Brienne V)

 

 
Tarly would know, as he owns a VS sword.
 
As for Jaime joining the KG so young. Let Jaime tell it himself:
 
Quote

Cersei had come to him dressed as a simple serving wench, which somehow excited him all the more. Jaime had never seen her more passionate. Every time he went to sleep, she woke him again. By morning Casterly Rock seemed a small price to pay to be near her always. He gave his consent, and Cersei promised to do the rest. [...]

A moon's turn later, a royal raven arrived at Casterly Rock to inform him that he had been chosen for the Kingsguard. He was commanded to present himself to the king during the great tourney at Harrenhal to say his vows and don his cloak.
Jaime's investiture freed him from Lysa Tully. Elsewise, nothing went as planned. His father had never been more furious. He could not object openly—Cersei had judged that correctly—but he resigned the Handship on some thin pretext and returned to Casterly Rock, taking his daughter with him. Instead of being together, Cersei and Jaime just changed places, and he found himself alone at court, guarding a mad king while four lesser men took their turns dancing on knives in his father's ill-fitting shoes. (aSoS, Jaime II)
 
I have come this way before, Jaime reflected a few miles further on, when they passed a deserted mill beside the lake. Weeds now grew where once the miller's daughter had smiled shyly at him, and the miller himself had shouted out, "The tourney's back the other way, ser." As if I had not known.
King Aerys made a great show of Jaime's investiture. He said his vows before the king's pavilion, kneeling on the green grass in white armor while half the realm looked on. When Ser Gerold Hightower raised him up and put the white cloak about his shoulders, a roar went up that Jaime still remembered, all these years later. But that very night Aerys had turned sour, declaring that he had no need of seven Kingsguard here at Harrenhal. Jaime was commanded to return to King's Landing to guard the queen and little Prince Viserys, who'd remained behind. Even when the White Bull offered to take that duty himself, so Jaime might compete in Lord Whent's tourney, Aerys had refused. "He'll win no glory here," the king had said. "He's mine now, not Tywin's. He'll serve as I see fit. I am the king. I rule, and he'll obey."
That was the first time that Jaime understood. It was not his skill with sword and lance that had won him his white cloak, nor any feats of valor he'd performed against the Kingswood Brotherhood. Aerys had chosen him to spite his father, to rob Lord Tywin of his heir. (aSoS, Jaime VI)

 

 
Aerys refused to consider Cersei as a bride for Rhaegar and with the help of Cersei, after one of the KG died, he used the open slot to make Jaime, Tywin's intended heir of CR, Kingsguard and deprive Tywin from Jaime and force Tywin into a situation where he had to normally either make Cersei his heir or his dwarf son Tyrion (who may or may not be Tywin's son, but Aerys' son).
 
Yes, Jaime was knighted at 15 by Arthur for his performance with the Kingswood Brotherhood. That was truly earned by Jaime. The KG position though had nothing to do with his feats or prowess, but Aerys wanting to spite Tywin.
 
Meanwhile Tywin persists in getting what he wants. His daughter did become queen after all, just to a different intended king: to Robert Baratheon.
 
So, why did Tywin not keep Oathkeeper and did he let Jaime have it anyway? He probably hoped that with patience he could still make Jaime see reason or make Jaime dislike his KG duty. Cersei was helping in that, by sending him out on a tour to check the gates a lot. Just like Tywin still brought Cersei to KL even after Aerys had refused and laughed at him over the marriage idea and Rhaegar was already married to Elia and she had given him a daughter already. Tywin does not give up easily.
 
As for Joffrey's built and Jon's - book versus show. What you try to claim is that the built of the aged up characters in the show is so canon, that even in the books Joffrey would have remained a lanky man with little prowess and that Jon will be so small that he can't even would be able to wield Ice, when his average height uncle Ned could wield it fine to behead someone, or a man like Ilyn Payne. It clearly would not be canon, since book-Jon has dark (brown) hair, not black hair as show-Jon, nor does he have curly hair. Book-Ned has dark (brown) hair, not the salt-pepper blonde of show-Ned. So, there goes "canon" out of the window. Oh and Joffrey has long blonde curly-wavy hair up to his shoulders.
 
Ignoring the hair color, type and length, the show chose characters with a build that resembles the book characters do at the start of the series. So, we start out with a lanky 12 year old Joffrey in the books and end with a lanky 14 year old Joffrey (both tall for their age). As none of these are ages where Joffrey's body would invest too much energy in bulk, it's totally normal that he's "lanky", especially since Joffrey's training is meant more for narcissistic show than actual gaining skill and muscle. Jon is 14 and while not small not remarkably tall (yet) and seem to be standard Stark average height (though Brandon Stark was taller than Ned Stark as well). But he has at least 4 years to grow, and basketball players don't always start out as the tallest in the class either at age 14. Jon and Robb have trained far more than Joffrey and thus forced their body to work on bulk, possibly delaying their growth spurts.The show aged them up from the start, but kept the "built" and in Robb's and Jon's case had fully grown adult men in their 20s portray their character, but had a teen actor who was not yet fully grown portray Joffrey. So, yes, I'm quite sure that if Joffrey had even be allowed to live until he was 16-18 in the books he would have been bulkier than as portrayed in the show. But it was convenient for the show to not have Joffrey bulkier than he should be at the age of 18, because d&d wished to portray Joffrey as a cowardly wimp. Same thing with aged up Tommen, who in the books in aDwD is barely ten, but eager to train at swords and the lists (while Cersei forbids it) and far more braver than Joffrey ever would have been.
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On 11/23/2016 at 5:17 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

Oh, we have confirmation that Jaime is in ep1 or 7 wearing an armour:wub: in HG, CR, or KL

http://watchersonthewall.com/lannisters-mobilize-malpartida-footage-key-game-thrones-sequence/

and......his sword will be Widow's Wail!

The other half of Ice ;).....:blush:

I love this; it's very fitting that Brienne and Jaime respectively get two halves (well or parts) of what once was one sword.  I have wondered for a while if the fact that the original belonged to Ned will have some bearing on how the manage to escape LSH...I am pretty certain they will survive this encounter (although it seems impossible right now) as the series has spoilled this but also I am sure that their story lines aren't done yet.  I also wonder if this will be the end of LSH, although Arya being the one to put an end to her (likely out of "mercy") could be another possibility.  In any event yes I think this reinforces the connection between J and B and, okay, maybe reading too much into it (I am not into seeing everything as foreshadowing) that they will both fight the others; them plus Sam Tarly, at least in the show.

As for the main topic in this thread, I would say it is pretty much certain that something has to happen to resolve this sexual/romantic tension.  It may or may not be sex.  If they declare their true feelings to each other but fate intervenes and they don't end up together because, say, one of them die, it would still be very powerful.  However, although there are a lot of possible pairings at this stage I am trying to see where that would take the story as a whole and the message that I think we are going to get, (in my opinion that current house antagonism and prejudice will have to stand aside to ensure survival, that there will be many heavy casualties including major characters but that rebuilding is what A Promise of Spring signifies).  For this to happen kids are necessary.  Okay of course the surviving population of Planetos will continue to breed lol but some of the major characters at least have to procreate. At this moment in time the only ones heading that way, assuming the NW is no longer necessary or the vows get scrapped or something, are Sam and Gilly...  Dany is "supposedly" infertile, Jon is not yet paired up, Sansa seems like she is likely to marry someone (although many see her as some sort of virgin Queen), Arya is a bit too young but not paired up either, neither is Tyrion, the Tyrell children are dead in the show, so are all Cersei's kids... According to Ned Bran's injury would mean no children for him (although not so sure myself medically speaking and would love to see him with Meera but his destiny may well make this impossible instead of his disability).  So, who out of the main characters is going to continue all these blood-lines?  I would put money that in the next two books (and show of course) some main characters are going to have to procreate and I think it would be very fitting to have a Lannister-Tarth baby.  One  of both parents might die but all these characters cannot stay without child forever.  Okay we might get the answer no sooner than on an epilogue or something or it may even be left to the reader/watcher imagination to figure out that people like Sansa, Arya, Rickon (if he survives in the books) will eventually procreate but to leave it all out, to me, would be anti-climatic, so although this Lannister-Tarth baby might sound a bit cheesy and too much what many fans want to see I think has a good chance of becoming a reality and the built up between the "parents" as pointed out has been phenomenal.  I think George likes romance but doesn't do romance for the sake of it alone.  Either is just character development (like, say, Tyrion/Tysha) or it will add to the political plot and the one thing that could cement unity among houses is babies between them.  I for instance think that there is a build up with Arya/Gendry as well and in the show he is the only surviving direct line Baratheon.  May not happen but would fit nicely so okay 10 gold dragons on this Lannister--Tarth kid happening with or without surviving parents and this would indeed be bitter-sweet...

 

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6 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I love this; it's very fitting that Brienne and Jaime respectively get two halves (well or parts) of what once was one sword.  I have wondered for a while if the fact that the original belonged to Ned will have some bearing on how the manage to escape LSH...I am pretty certain they will survive this encounter (although it seems impossible right now) as the series has spoilled this but also I am sure that their story lines aren't done yet.  I also wonder if this will be the end of LSH, although Arya being the one to put an end to her (likely out of "mercy") could be another possibility.  In any event yes I think this reinforces the connection between J and B and, okay, maybe reading too much into it (I am not into seeing everything as foreshadowing) that they will both fight the others; them plus Sam Tarly, at least in the show.

As for the main topic in this thread, I would say it is pretty much certain that something has to happen to resolve this sexual/romantic tension.  It may or may not be sex.  If they declare their true feelings to each other but fate intervenes and they don't end up together because, say, one of them die, it would still be very powerful.  However, although there are a lot of possible pairings at this stage I am trying to see where that would take the story as a whole and the message that I think we are going to get, (in my opinion that current house antagonism and prejudice will have to stand aside to ensure survival, that there will be many heavy casualties including major characters but that rebuilding is what A Promise of Spring signifies).  For this to happen kids are necessary.  Okay of course the surviving population of Planetos will continue to breed lol but some of the major characters at least have to procreate. At this moment in time the only ones heading that way, assuming the NW is no longer necessary or the vows get scrapped or something, are Sam and Gilly...  Dany is "supposedly" infertile, Jon is not yet paired up, Sansa seems like she is likely to marry someone (although many see her as some sort of virgin Queen), Arya is a bit too young but not paired up either, neither is Tyrion, the Tyrell children are dead in the show, so are all Cersei's kids... According to Ned Bran's injury would mean no children for him (although not so sure myself medically speaking and would love to see him with Meera but his destiny may well make this impossible instead of his disability).  So, who out of the main characters is going to continue all these blood-lines?  I would put money that in the next two books (and show of course) some main characters are going to have to procreate and I think it would be very fitting to have a Lannister-Tarth baby.  One  of both parents might die but all these characters cannot stay without child forever.  Okay we might get the answer no sooner than on an epilogue or something or it may even be left to the reader/watcher imagination to figure out that people like Sansa, Arya, Rickon (if he survives in the books) will eventually procreate but to leave it all out, to me, would be anti-climatic, so although this Lannister-Tarth baby might sound a bit cheesy and too much what many fans want to see I think has a good chance of becoming a reality and the built up between the "parents" as pointed out has been phenomenal.  I think George likes romance but doesn't do romance for the sake of it alone.  Either is just character development (like, say, Tyrion/Tysha) or it will add to the political plot and the one thing that could cement unity among houses is babies between them.  I for instance think that there is a build up with Arya/Gendry as well and in the show he is the only surviving direct line Baratheon.  May not happen but would fit nicely so okay 10 gold dragons on this Lannister--Tarth kid happening with or without surviving parents and this would indeed be bitter-sweet...

 

Yes, I agree with that!

I also think they might be fighting together in a  future...there is Jaime's dream to consider!

as for JB in the last comic con in Guadalajara (Mexico) George said the relationship is still evolving, so we can assume they are surviving LSh in the books.

It's true that something has to happen in order to resolve their sexual tension, which is also romantic, and I certainly agree it would fit a lot if they had a child together, as this would fit the next generation, which is what the story is talking about (the young ones and the dream of spring) and would also Brienne's other name: the Maid of Tarth.

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17 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Bottom line is that your observations aren't objective. You haven't gathered and measured and interviewed these men yearly and kept notes of it, even after they went their own way after HS. I'm not basing my explanation on growth on personal experience, but on what scientists and doctors and the medical world give as estimates regarding final height in relation to age, whether male or female over million of men across decade after decade. You're basically saying that your very loose (and ultimately subjective) observations are more correct than perhaps the most statistically gathered data since the late 1800s all over the world, including development countries and medical conclusions and estimates made out of it.

Ironically enough, as I said earlier, up above, I think we actually are not too far apart from each other on this.  My understanding is that we both agree that most young males are full grown by 17 or 18, and that some grow past those ages, but it is rare.  Not sure why this aspect of the conversation is continuing.

17 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

 

Here are the book quotes about Tywin wanting a VS sword for House Lannister as heirloom

 
 

Thrice he tried to buy one from lesser houses, and his younger brother went looking for the one that House Lannister lost (to never return). Tywin's primarly concern was to have a VS sword for House Lannister. He didn't offer to buy a VS sword from the other houses, nor lost his younger brother, to give Joffrey a sword, but one for the Lord of CR, which Tywin always planned to be Jaime. But Ice was a greatsword with enough steel to reforge two longswords. So, first objective is to get the most impressive longsword for House Lannister and his desired heir, Jaime, Joffrey's sword is a by-thought. There wasn't enough to get a dagger out of it for Tyrion.

Mind you: the book estimates there are 200 VS "blades" in Westeros (including daggers). In the show there are only a dozen (before Ice was split into 2)

I never denied Tywin wanted a VS sword for House Lannister.  And he got one.  But in my opinion, that has little or nothing at all to do with why he gave which sword to each person (Jaime and Joffrey).  Either way, House Lannister gets a VS sword.  Even if Jaime was built like Joffrey and had rec'd Widow's Wail, and Joffrey had been built like Jaime and rec'd Oathkeeper, House Lannister would have gotten a VS sword.  Again, I have never denied Tywin wanted VS for House Lannister, yet MUCH of what you have written and quoted seems heavily focused on that issue. To me, the question we were discussing was WHY Tywin gave each of them the sword he did, and merely stating that Tywin wanted VS for House Lannister does not answer that question, cuz either way, House Lannister gets a VS sword.. 

17 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

As for the length. This is what you said.

In other words you thought of as Oathkeeper as a "full size sword" and Widow's Waill as a "MUCH smaller" sword that you implied is not "full size". Now you're trying to deny you believed Widow's Wail was a child's tool.
And yes you are wrong about that.
 
The reason why it swings so easily, is not its size, but the fact that it is made from Valyrian Steel.
 
 
Tarly would know, as he owns a VS sword.
 
As for Jaime joining the KG so young. Let Jaime tell it himself:
 
 
Aerys refused to consider Cersei as a bride for Rhaegar and with the help of Cersei, after one of the KG died, he used the open slot to make Jaime, Tywin's intended heir of CR, Kingsguard and deprive Tywin from Jaime and force Tywin into a situation where he had to normally either make Cersei his heir or his dwarf son Tyrion (who may or may not be Tywin's son, but Aerys' son).
 
Yes, Jaime was knighted at 15 by Arthur for his performance with the Kingswood Brotherhood. That was truly earned by Jaime. The KG position though had nothing to do with his feats or prowess, but Aerys wanting to spite Tywin.
 
Meanwhile Tywin persists in getting what he wants. His daughter did become queen after all, just to a different intended king: to Robert Baratheon.
 
So, why did Tywin not keep Oathkeeper and did he let Jaime have it anyway? He probably hoped that with patience he could still make Jaime see reason or make Jaime dislike his KG duty. Cersei was helping in that, by sending him out on a tour to check the gates a lot. Just like Tywin still brought Cersei to KL even after Aerys had refused and laughed at him over the marriage idea and Rhaegar was already married to Elia and she had given him a daughter already. Tywin does not give up easily.
 
As for Joffrey's built and Jon's - book versus show. What you try to claim is that the built of the aged up characters in the show is so canon, that even in the books Joffrey would have remained a lanky man with little prowess and that Jon will be so small that he can't even would be able to wield Ice, when his average height uncle Ned could wield it fine to behead someone, or a man like Ilyn Payne. It clearly would not be canon, since book-Jon has dark (brown) hair, not black hair as show-Jon, nor does he have curly hair. Book-Ned has dark (brown) hair, not the salt-pepper blonde of show-Ned. So, there goes "canon" out of the window. Oh and Joffrey has long blonde curly-wavy hair up to his shoulders.
 
Ignoring the hair color, type and length, the show chose characters with a build that resembles the book characters do at the start of the series. So, we start out with a lanky 12 year old Joffrey in the books and end with a lanky 14 year old Joffrey (both tall for their age). As none of these are ages where Joffrey's body would invest too much energy in bulk, it's totally normal that he's "lanky", especially since Joffrey's training is meant more for narcissistic show than actual gaining skill and muscle. Jon is 14 and while not small not remarkably tall (yet) and seem to be standard Stark average height (though Brandon Stark was taller than Ned Stark as well). But he has at least 4 years to grow, and basketball players don't always start out as the tallest in the class either at age 14. Jon and Robb have trained far more than Joffrey and thus forced their body to work on bulk, possibly delaying their growth spurts.The show aged them up from the start, but kept the "built" and in Robb's and Jon's case had fully grown adult men in their 20s portray their character, but had a teen actor who was not yet fully grown portray Joffrey. So, yes, I'm quite sure that if Joffrey had even be allowed to live until he was 16-18 in the books he would have been bulkier than as portrayed in the show. But it was convenient for the show to not have Joffrey bulkier than he should be at the age of 18, because d&d wished to portray Joffrey as a cowardly wimp. Same thing with aged up Tommen, who in the books in aDwD is barely ten, but eager to train at swords and the lists (while Cersei forbids it) and far more braver than Joffrey ever would have been.

(For some reason, I cannot break the rest of what you wrote into smaller chunks for responding, even though I tried numerous times at multiple places, so I'll have to respond to each of what I believe are the 3 main issues in turn as follows:)

(1)  Regarding what I said about Widow's Wail:  I'm not going to argue about this issue anymore after this post. My words speak for themselves.  You previously claimed I called WW a "tiny sword," and even put the words in quotes, but you cannot produce that, cuz I never said it.  Now, as I understand it, you are claiming I believed WW was a "child's tool."  Yes, I AM denying I ever believed WW was a "child's tool."  Rather than picking and choosing different words from what I actually said (e.g., "tiny sword," "child's tool"), why don't you just focus on what I DID actually say?  I really don't understand that.  

Now, I accept your quote of what I did say about WW being much smalller than Oathkeeper without even going back to check, b/c that IS consistent with my belief.  As I already said above, the relative masses of WW and Oathkeeper DO make WW "much smaller."  Do you remember me pointing out, up above, that Oathkeeper is one and a half times the mass of WW? Yes, that makes WW "much smaller" than Oathkeeper.  "2/5ths" may not seem like much less than "3/5ths,", but actually, proportionally, IT IS.  "3/5ths" is one and a half times the mass of "2/5ths," which, proportionally is a huge difference.  Do you remember me taking about a 150 pound man and a 225 pound man?  Okay, the ratio is THE SAME.  And is a 150 pound man "much smaller" than a 225 pound man?  Yes, absolutely, the 150 pound man is "much smaller," as I think anyone would agree, but that does not make the 150 pound man "tiny" or a "child" in size.

(2) Regarding Jaime being named to the Kingsguard:  Great stuff, I enjoyed re-reading all of that, but I see nothing in there that contradicts my belief that Jaime's appointment to the Kingsguard was meritorious or that he was in fact worthy, and I do not recall anything , EVER, in books or show suggesting that he was unworthy or that he lacked the merit.  Note that I never denied Aerys would be pleased to deprive Tywin of Jaime, and note also that while I enjoyed reading the quotes you provided, that is JAIME'S POINT OF VIEW, not Aerys'," which, as we know from numerous other examples in GRRM's work, can be critical to keep in mind. (Indeed, it's part of the genius of GRRM's work, showing how different characters often have very different perspectives from other characters on the exact same events.)

In all likelihood, we will never know for sure exactly what considerations Aerys took into account when he named Jaime to the KG.  For all we know, MAYBE Aerys had the open seat on the KG, asked several of them who they would recommend, and to a man they recommended Jaime based on pure merit, after which Aerys thought to himself "Wow, nice, and as a side benefit I get to deprive Tywin of his heir."  Or maybe Aerys didn't even think THAT.  We'll never know, cuz we don't have Aery's POV or internal monologue on it, but my understanding is that jaime Lannister was quite likely the baddest 16 year old that ever lived in Westeros, cuz he was the youngest KG ever, and it is completely consistent with LOTS of other information we are given about Jaime and his fighting ability in numerous other places.

(3)  Finally, regarding Jon and Joffrey.  I think lots of stuff is getting mixed and mashed together here.  In my last post, I tried to separate the issues so they could be isolated and discussed with more clarity, making comments about "book-Joffrey," "show-Joffrey," "book-Jon," and "show-Jon," but now, I think, with respect, you seem to have mixed and mashed it all back together again.  I have enjoyed our conversation on this subject, but at this point I think anything else I add would be merely repeating other things I have already said, which I'm guessing you don't want to re-read, and I know I don't want to re-write. 

But hey, it's cool.  I have enjoyed our conversation, and I respect you as a thoughtful and detailed contributor here, who has made many good points along the way.  I actually think we agree on more than you seem to think we agree on, but there are some things we continue to disagree on and I don't think we will resolve them at this point, so I'm just going to leave it at that..

Still, though, it's been intellectually stimulating conversation, and I thank you for it.

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2 hours ago, Cron said:

I never denied Tywin wanted a VS sword for House Lannister.  And he got one.  But in my opinion, that has little or nothing at all to do with why he gave which sword to each person (Jaime and Joffrey).  Either way, House Lannister gets a VS sword.  Even if Jaime was built like Joffrey and had rec'd Widow's Wail, and Joffrey had been built like Jaime and rec'd Oathkeeper, House Lannister would have gotten a VS sword.  Again, I have never denied Tywin wanted VS for House Lannister, yet MUCH of what you have written and quoted seems heavily focused on that issue. To me, the question we were discussing was WHY Tywin gave each of them the sword he did, and merely stating that Tywin wanted VS for House Lannister does not answer that question, cuz either way, House Lannister gets a VS sword.. 


This is imo a rather obtuse reply, since I said his priority would be on the most impressive blade for House Lannister... that is not the VS sword with the most gold on the hilt, but having the actual most VS forged into it.

That said the 2 fuller longsword is still a full sized adult VS sword worthy of use in battle. It wasn't forged for the temporary physical status of a 14 or 18 year old lanky boy, but for a full sized mature sword that any bulked knight of over 6 ft would be proud to carry and fight with.

2 hours ago, Cron said:

(1)  Regarding what I said about Widow's Wail:  I'm not going to argue about this issue anymore after this post. My words speak for themselves.  You previously claimed I called WW a "tiny sword," and even put the words in quotes, but you cannot produce that, cuz I never said it.  Now, as I understand it, you are claiming I believed WW was a "child's tool."  Yes, I AM denying I ever believed WW was a "child's tool."  Rather than picking and choosing different words from what I actually said (e.g., "tiny sword," "child's tool"), why don't you just focus on what I DID actually say?  I really don't understand that.  

Now, I accept your quote of what I did say about WW being much smalller than Oathkeeper without even going back to check, b/c that IS consistent with my belief.  As I already said above, the relative masses of WW and Oathkeeper DO make WW "much smaller."  Do you remember me pointing out, up above, that Oathkeeper is one and a half times the mass of WW? Yes, that makes WW "much smaller" than Oathkeeper.  "2/5ths" may not seem like much less than "3/5ths,", but actually, proportionally, IT IS.  "3/5ths" is one and a half times the mass of "2/5ths," which, proportionally is a huge difference.  Do you remember me taking about a 150 pound man and a 225 pound man?  Okay, the ratio is THE SAME.  And is a 150 pound man "much smaller" than a 225 pound man?  Yes, absolutely, the 150 pound man is "much smaller," as I think anyone would agree, but that does not make the 150 pound man "tiny" or a "child" in size.

 
Your original quote tried to picture Widow's Wail off as a sword as unworthy to a bulked knight of over 6ft. It's not the "MUCH smaller" (twice repeated) but mentioning it in combination with your wording for Oathkeeper as a "full size sword". Basically you implied that Widow's Wail is "MUCH smaller" than a "full sized sword", and thus as a consequence that Widow's Wail is "not a full sized sword". On top of that you continue to argue that Widow's Wail was forged to fit the temporary growth status of a boy-man who is not yet fully grow, nor fully bulked up yet, and thus portray a belief that Widow's Wail was forged for a teen/child, and thus take it as an insult that Jaime is wiedling such a sword.
 
It's actually very human and understandable that you made that mental mistake. For a long while even I myself thought Widow's Wail was "MUCH smaller". I thought initially that Widow's Wail wasn't even a longsword, but only 1/3 of Ice, until I did a reread. Widow's Wail is a "full sized sword". 
 
1/5 of difference is still less than 1/3 of difference. But you've got the difference in measurements now. I gave you the minimum length for a longsword (33inch), I quoted the book to make clear that Widow's Wail is called a longsword, and I gave you the quote that says Oathkeeper is 1/2 inch wider and 3 inches longer. The true difference in VS material is probably more like 1/9 of the VS material.
 
And no we know we're not talking about 250 pounds versus 150 pounds here (that proportional analogy of yours is mathematically correct, but imo just used to bamboozle).
 
Conclusion:
  • The situation isn't Oathkeeper = "full size sword" and Widow's Wail = "non full sized sword" (for a kid/teen/lanky person)...
  • The situation is Widow's Wail ="full sized sword" and Oathkeeper = "exceptional".

So, don't worry...Jaime isn't going to look ridiculous when he wields Widow's Wail, which I take was what you worried about the most.

Quote

In all likelihood, we will never know for sure exactly what considerations Aerys took into account when he named Jaime to the KG.  For all we know, MAYBE Aerys had the open seat on the KG, asked several of them who they would recommend, and to a man they recommended Jaime based on pure merit, after which Aerys thought to himself "Wow, nice, and as a side benefit I get to deprive Tywin of his heir."  Or maybe Aerys didn't even think THAT.  We'll never know, cuz we don't have Aery's POV or internal monologue on it, but my understanding is that jaime Lannister was quite likely the baddest 16 year old that ever lived in Westeros, cuz he was the youngest KG ever, and it is completely consistent with LOTS of other information we are given about Jaime and his fighting ability in numerous other places.

We do know. Aerys' case in literature regarding Jaime is a closed deal.

He appointed Jaime publically at the start of a tourney, and sent him off to KL with the expressed purpose to deny him any chance of fighting at a tourney, "He will have no Glory here." And he gloats over having Tywin's son to command. If having Tywin's son was only a secondary bonus, an afterthought, he would have allowed Jaime to perform at HH and so on. He didn't. He explicitly stated he wanted Jaime to not participate in tourneys and gain no glory. We don't need Aerys' thoughts. We have his explicit words on that. That a 15 year old boy who wants to be like Arthur Dayne admits to himself that he was used as a pawn and not chosen for his skill on the day of being made KG, like Arthur Dayne, speaks volumes about the POV conclusion. 15 year old proud boys don't like to admit to naivity, not even themselves. 

We also have the White Book and the entries written in it by Sir Gerold Hightower and later Selmy. When Jaime reads it he's extremely disappointed with what it contains. Now, that Selmy left out and neglected some of Jaime's wins at tourneys and whatever he may have done during Balon's Rebellion (we don't know), is understandably biased censuring. Selmy became LC after Robert won his rebellion against Aerys, and thus after Jaime slew Aerys. But even Gerold's write up is scant. It only reads that he squired for Crakehall against the Kingswood Brotherhood, that he was knighted by Dayne at 15, and then chosen by Aerys to be KG. His melee win at a tourney at 13 is not in the White Book, nor that he saved Sumner Crakehall's life against one of the outlaws. The supposed great feats that allowed for Jaime to be theoretically named KG by Aerys at the age of 15 are NOT written in the White Book, not even by Gerold Hightower, the LC at that time. The melee win as a squire is one of the reasons that Jaime cites to Brienne why he himself feels he "deserved" it. Saving Sumner Crakehall's life and that he even crossed swords with the Smiling Knight are facts that Jaime "thinks" Gerold Hightower could have included in his write up in the White Book. But Gerold explicitly fails to mention any of this.

Then we have Selmy's account in the White Book: his first feat as a mystery knight at the age of 10 that earned him the name "the Bold" is recorded in it, even though he was defeated and unmasked by Duncan Targaryen. It states why he was knighted at 16 - for feats of prowess, again as a mystery knight, at a tourney where he defeated Duncan the Small and Dunk (the LC of the KG at the time). It reports who he fought at the war of the Ninepenny Kings and who he killed then, which earned him the position at KG at the age of 23 with Gerold as LC of the KG at the time. All typos of victories and who he fought and slew against the Kingswood Brotherhood - he killed Symon Toyne, fought Smiling Knight (who was slain by Arthur) - and who he rescued from the KB. And more wins and feats at tourneys follow.

You might wonder whether Selmy wrote that all up about himself? No, he didn't. It was all written by Gerold Hightower. Selmy only wrote the entry of his wounding at the Trident and what he did afterwards, including being dismissed from service by Joffrey at the age of 61.

So, Gerold wrote an extensive summation for Selmy from age 10, who he fought or jousted against, even if he didn't kill or defeated anyone, nor was a knight even. But Jaime's feats are nothing more than "was this guy's squire at the Kingswood", got knighted at age 15 by this knight (no reason given), and was made KG by this king (no reason given).

There's no denying that Jaime is a good fighter (when he had his sword hand), but based on the discrepance of Gerold's accounts for Selmy and Jaime, it's clear that Gerold (the LC of the KG) didn't really think Jaime had done anything extraordinary to actually deserve his knighthood at 15, let alone to become a KG.

So, how about Jaime's win of the melee at the tourney at the age 13? In the books we have Harry the Heir, in the Vale. Royce organized a squire tourney where he made sure that Harry would win so he could be knighted. It's why Myranda refers to Harry as an upjumped knight (though he's actually an adult in Westerosi culture). Is that what happened? Jaime never cites who organized the tourney where he won his melee. That Gerold Hightower doesn't even consider to mention it in the White Book and that Jaime doesn't even think "Hey Gerold, you could have written about my melee win at age 13" hints that whomever organized the tourney and the melee did set it up to be on Tywin's good side by arranging for Jaime to win it, and that Jaime knows this.

His actions as a squire at the Kingswood earned him his knighthood by Dayne. He served Sumner Crakehall as squire well, since he saved him from being killed by an outlaw (though he did not kill the outlaw). Yet, somehow Gerold does not think it was something extraordinary feat that was to be recorded in the White Book. Crakehall is a bannerman of Tywin. It's likely that Sumner Crakehall asked or suggested Jaime to be knighted to Dayne. Crakehall could have done it himself, but that would have looked way too suspicious. Having a KG knight Jaime comes across as a far more politically independent judgment. At least Arthur thought it was good enough to be knighted. Gerold Hightower was not actually present at that particular incident with the Kingswood Brotherhood (Ulmer, now at CB, shot him through the hand in a previous incident). Hence, it's safe to conclude that Gerold himself did not think Jaime's feats were special enough to be knighted for. Meanwhile Gerold is actually the KG who offered to go back to KL after Jaime was made KG so that Jaime could participate at the Tourney of HH. In other words, the picture we get is that Gerold did not think Jaime had proven himself yet to earn his knighthood at 15 (let alone to be KG), but that he did want to give Jaime a chance to prove it ASAP at Harrenhal, earn his spurrs and glory after he was up-jumped already. This would explain very well why Gerold, who tries to be generous to Jaime at HH by offering to take his place to guard the queen in KL, wrote so little about Jaime's feats. Jaime's feats - both the melee win at 13 and the saving of Crakehall from an outlaw attack - were left unmentioned, because putting them in there would have made Jaime's knighthood as an up-jumped knight, than one who earned it. Gerold censored the details to save Jaime's face.

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20 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I love this; it's very fitting that Brienne and Jaime respectively get two halves (well or parts) of what once was one sword.  I have wondered for a while if the fact that the original belonged to Ned will have some bearing on how the manage to escape LSH...I am pretty certain they will survive this encounter (although it seems impossible right now) as the series has spoilled this but also I am sure that their story lines aren't done yet.  I also wonder if this will be the end of LSH, although Arya being the one to put an end to her (likely out of "mercy") could be another possibility.  In any event yes I think this reinforces the connection between J and B and, okay, maybe reading too much into it (I am not into seeing everything as foreshadowing) that they will both fight the others; them plus Sam Tarly, at least in the show.

As for the main topic in this thread, I would say it is pretty much certain that something has to happen to resolve this sexual/romantic tension.  It may or may not be sex.  If they declare their true feelings to each other but fate intervenes and they don't end up together because, say, one of them die, it would still be very powerful.  However, although there are a lot of possible pairings at this stage I am trying to see where that would take the story as a whole and the message that I think we are going to get, (in my opinion that current house antagonism and prejudice will have to stand aside to ensure survival, that there will be many heavy casualties including major characters but that rebuilding is what A Promise of Spring signifies).  For this to happen kids are necessary.  Okay of course the surviving population of Planetos will continue to breed lol but some of the major characters at least have to procreate. At this moment in time the only ones heading that way, assuming the NW is no longer necessary or the vows get scrapped or something, are Sam and Gilly...  Dany is "supposedly" infertile, Jon is not yet paired up, Sansa seems like she is likely to marry someone (although many see her as some sort of virgin Queen), Arya is a bit too young but not paired up either, neither is Tyrion, the Tyrell children are dead in the show, so are all Cersei's kids... According to Ned Bran's injury would mean no children for him (although not so sure myself medically speaking and would love to see him with Meera but his destiny may well make this impossible instead of his disability).  So, who out of the main characters is going to continue all these blood-lines?  I would put money that in the next two books (and show of course) some main characters are going to have to procreate and I think it would be very fitting to have a Lannister-Tarth baby.  One  of both parents might die but all these characters cannot stay without child forever.  Okay we might get the answer no sooner than on an epilogue or something or it may even be left to the reader/watcher imagination to figure out that people like Sansa, Arya, Rickon (if he survives in the books) will eventually procreate but to leave it all out, to me, would be anti-climatic, so although this Lannister-Tarth baby might sound a bit cheesy and too much what many fans want to see I think has a good chance of becoming a reality and the built up between the "parents" as pointed out has been phenomenal.  I think George likes romance but doesn't do romance for the sake of it alone.  Either is just character development (like, say, Tyrion/Tysha) or it will add to the political plot and the one thing that could cement unity among houses is babies between them.  I for instance think that there is a build up with Arya/Gendry as well and in the show he is the only surviving direct line Baratheon.  May not happen but would fit nicely so okay 10 gold dragons on this Lannister--Tarth kid happening with or without surviving parents and this would indeed be bitter-sweet...

 

I totally agree with you. And Lannister-Tarth baby or not, I think Jaime and Brienne are the perfect characters for recreating a new society and a new generation after WW's defeat. I don't know if one of them is going to die, because, you know, this is Got/ASoIaF, but I think they would be more useful to the plots if they both survive. 

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5 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Well, she already got to know his sword. (It will always be yours! :lol:)

Yes!! of course!!!! How could I forget?!! 

27 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

I totally agree with you. And Lannister-Tarth baby or not, I think Jaime and Brienne are the perfect characters for recreating a new society and a new generation after WW's defeat. I don't know if one of them is going to die, because, you know, this is Got/ASoIaF, but I think they would be more useful to the plots if they both survive. 

Yes, both not surviving would be a tragedy so I think at least one of them will.

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5 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Yes!! of course!!!! How could I forget?!! 

Yes, both not surviving would be a tragedy so I think at least one of them will.

My money is on Brienne having more chances than Jaime but could be wrong.  Now it would be interesting to see how she manages her career as a knight (in all by name) and a baby being a widow... but of course the books have to end at some point and there wouldn't be much time to explore that but it would be interesting to imagine it nonetheless.  Now, if something tragic happens to Jaime (which I fear will do because some major shot has to die in this) it will be heroic and at the very end.  They both have unfinished business, especially Jaime at this stage not just with Brienne, but Tyrion, possibly Bran, even Dany as some have pointed out.  Can't wait for books and show both lol

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I never got the impression she wanted a baby, she brought up motherhood once and seemed to think that wasn't for her. I am open to persuasion otherwise, though.

I never usually think too far ahead, I figure everything will end tragically for everyone. But if I thought of a happy ending for J/B, it would be a long happy road trip being knights together (and of course, keeping each other warm at night). 

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1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

I never got the impression she wanted a baby, she brought up motherhood once and seemed to think that wasn't for her. I am open to persuasion otherwise, though.

I never usually think too far ahead, I figure everything will end tragically for everyone. But if I thought of a happy ending for J/B, it would be a long happy road trip being knights together (and of course, keeping each other warm at night). 

I sometimes have the same thoughts....too many happy endings would I want to be "satisfied" with the ending! Some days I'm more positive than others on that matter

3 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

My money is on Brienne having more chances than Jaime but could be wrong.  Now it would be interesting to see how she manages her career as a knight (in all by name) and a baby being a widow... but of course the books have to end at some point and there wouldn't be much time to explore that but it would be interesting to imagine it nonetheless.  Now, if something tragic happens to Jaime (which I fear will do because some major shot has to die in this) it will be heroic and at the very end.  They both have unfinished business, especially Jaime at this stage not just with Brienne, but Tyrion, possibly Bran, even Dany as some have pointed out.  Can't wait for books and show both lol

Yes, I think that Brienne and Jaime being knights of some kind together would be a good ending. Whether she will be a widow, with a kid or nor, or happily with him is unkown, but the romance told is so powerful even if the ending is not as happy. Something huge must happen between them.

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